NY NY - Chaim Weiss, 15, Long Beach, 1 Nov 1986

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
I believe the "ritual" placement of the body has been looked into too much.

As was explained in a previous thread, the Jewish ritual regarding a dead body is not well known and takes years to learn. Plus having an open window and a lit candle is a very small part of it.

The candle story is mixed up from a minor incident. There was no candle found burning when the body was found. However, in the days after the murder, a rabbi came in and lit a candle out of respect. One day there were two candles there despite a guard watching the door 24/7. The classmate in the prior thread thinks that the rabbi lit two candles and forgot about it since he was known as rather absent-minded.

The death ritual story was over exaggerated to make for good television, as was the "secretive" nature of the Orthodox Jews. They are not that secret a religous group. There are millions of them.

Also, I'm not really sold on it being a "ritual" murder from an antisemitic group. Rather, I feel it was more of a "scare the Jews" type murder.

I'm certainly not a criminal profiler, but I have observed enough in my brief couple years in this forum to know what you say rings true. We tend to sensationalize and get a bit far reaching in our theories when we have absence of fact. Real life is generally less sensational. You are most likely right that this was a hate crime.
That said, I have been dwelling on another possibility that has, no doubt, been pondered endlessly as well. If you wanted to hurt a man in the worse possible way, you would harm his child. Did the father have any true enemies? A business deal that went very bad? I know this is a horrible thought, but we are here to consider and discuss all possibilities.
You're most likely right though eman, but I can't help believe it wasn't random if the perp went looking for the "kid who was alone in his room". I will also say it would seem to have been a large, strong individual based on the description of the wound. Did a "profiler" ever evaluate this case? It would be interesting to read that report, if there is one.
One other random thought. I seem to have read there was only one other child who had his own room? Could he have possibly been the intended victim since the perp seemed to get the room wrong initially? Another reaching theory, but...
Back to the father for a moment. This is a real stretch of a comparison, but do you remember when Don Gotti's son was accidentally run over by a neighbor and died? Do you remember that the neighbor mysteriously disappeared? Did Chaim's father have some sort of previous accident of any type that resulted in loss of life? Could this be an "eye for an eye"? Yes...very far reaching theory.
 
If you wanted to hurt a man in the worse possible way, you would harm his child.

A horrible thought, but an astute one. 'Random' just doesn't sit well with me, in this case. I believe a random killer would not have climbed all the way to the 3rd floor, nor taken the time to seek out (from among dozens of other rooms) one of very few rooms with a single student in it. But this killer did both.

How many doors would he have had to open that night, to find a student alone? Did he open door after door after door? Just a single student - on Chaim's floor - has recollection of waking to the sound of his door opening and closing. Surely if the killer had spent the time to go about opening doors willy-nilly from ground floor to the third in search of a lone victim, more kids would have noticed.

And why would a man fuelled by an agenda of hatred or psychopathic rage go to all that trouble? Why not take the most expedient and least risky of opportunities, and kill a child on the first floor?

I also do not think this was a hate crime. People who kill for that motive generally don't prefer to leave any doubt whatsoever that they have killed for that particular reason. And again, why not take the expedient route and kill a child on the first floor, seeing as there was an unlocked door offering easy access... Why the third floor, why risk the time going up there, when any child (or even two) would have done for this purpose.

I do feel Chaim was the sole and chosen target. It's what makes the most sense of things, to my mind. But why? For moment putting aside the idea that this crime was done by some random madman: What might the killer have actually achieved by killing Chaim? Who might have benefited from his death? Here's some possibilities.

1. Hatred or envy towards Chaim.
Chaim did have 'preferential' treatment, due his diligence as a student. I'd be interested in how 'competitive' the school actually was that way. Is it possible somebody's parent saw Chaim as occupying a position of honour their own child ought to have had?

I read the posts by Chaim's fellow student, stating that Chaim was generally well-liked among his peers even though he was obviously well known for having something of a sharp tongue. If Chaim was capable of inspiring that level of rage and hatred in someone, I am sure this fellow student would have said so, and I am sure there would be rumours flying still among those former schoolmates, of Chaim having an enemy. But it's quite the opposite.

***ETA: though I find the post regarding the janitor mentioned at the end of this post interesting, re 'hatred'

2. Hatred or threat toward Chaim's family.
I don't know enough to say whether or not this could be a feasible theory. But to me, at present, it kind of makes more sense than a random/hate crime killer. If someone was paid to hurt that boy, he would (1) possibly have information on where to find Chaim, and (2) have to make sure Chaim was well and truly dead (hence those many blows, after the first which was definitely fatal?) Too, it would be in such a person's interest to obfuscate the fact that the killing was a hit, making things as confusing as possible. Maybe some of the staging was a 'message' to somebody, who knows?

3. Chaim's silence.
What could a scholarly-minded 15 yo from a closed community possibly know that was worth his brutal murder?

A sex crime, maybe. Something lurid enough to warrant this violence. BUT -- if this was the case, I believe somebody would have spoken about being a victim of similar sex crimes, or rumours would have seeped among the student body. But there weren't any such rumours.

Something that would get another student instantly expelled. Like homosexuality. I find this a more likely-to-be-kept secret. As as it warranted much shame and instant expulsion from the school, not an unlikely motive. Especially as Chaim had that famously 'sharp tongue'...

Sundry thoughts:

-- For some reason, the position of the blinds bothers me. Was the blind broken prior to the murder? I have left blinds hooked over the rail like that when they are broken and won't roll up. Chaim was awake til 1am. He was ill, the night was cold, it's doubtful he left the window open - but did he leave the blind up? Was his lit room or even Chaim himself visible at 1am from the yard below?

--I don't think it was an accident that this happened early in the morning of Shabbat, when religious restrictions were likely to hamper the investigation.

-- An interesting post from one of the sites linked above, by a friend of one of the boys who was there:
Chaim's room was incredibly gruesome. It is true that he was killed instantly from the first blow, but there were 11 other blows with a knife. I hope I do not offend the Weiss family by posting this, but Chaim's room was full of splattered brain matter, skull fragments, and severed pieces of the upper half of his head. The late Chaim was murdered brutally. Unsolved Mysteries censored this because the real crime scene was not fit for television.

My friend mentioned that the school employed Polish immigrant laborers. They cooked, cleaned, and took care of maintenance. I assume this was a way to get cheap labor. The yeshiva provided them with living quarters. I am not sure whether they lived in the same building with the boys or an adjoining building. You have to understand how fascinating and ironic this is. Polish people are historically virulent anti-Semites. Poland has a long history of violence against Jews, which contributed to the fact that their country is nearly completely Catholic. Polish people actively aided Nazis with concentration camps and staged mass killings of Jews. The tables were now turned in America. These Polish immigrants who came from a world where a Jew would be spit on now had to work for them in America. I have no doubt that there was severe resentment.

There was one Polish janitor who seemed to stick out in everyone's mind. He was openly anti-Semitic and violent. He had an explosive temper. Students would taunt him in order to get a rise out of him and he would respond by slamming them into walls or throwing things at them. My friend remembers the Polish janitor getting into scuffles with students in the cafeteria and throwing hangers at them. The man by all accounts had "a few screws loose."

During the summer months of 1986, the Polish janitor was either fired or suddenly had to leave. The exact reason remains unknown. He left on very bad terms.

He was investigated, but his alibi was that he was serving on a military base and could not have possibly been in the area.

(posted by RebZissel at: http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/archive/index.php/t-40393.html)

^ I find that VERY interesting.

Anyway, just some thoughts. This must have been terribly hard on his family and friends.
 
RebZissel
11-30-2011, 05:43 PM
Like I said, the open window and mysterious memorial candle were meaningless. It was open because boys would sit on the fire escape.

Fire escape? Now, this puts a different picture on things. If there was a fire escape outside Chaim's window, how could this not be seen as a possible point of access or egress for the perp?

And from the same poster, this:

(the door with the broken lock)... led to a staircase that took you directly to the corridor with Chaim's room.

I think I should mention something. Chaim's father was a European refugee born in a displaced persons camp. Mr. Weiss and his parents were Holocaust survivors who were together in the camps. They came to America and Anton Weiss became a MEGA success. He was a world renowned businessman who became a multimillionaire.

I find all of these little bits of info really interesting.

Here's a further thought, regarding Chaim's wounds. The ferocity of this attack took a while to sink in for me. Somebody drove a large knife into a boy's skull so hard it went through bone into his brain and very nearly severed his spinal column. Then stabbed him in the head and neck eleven more times. The killer hit Chaim with the knife so very hard that his poor head was split open, and the room was covered in blood and brain spatter.

Think about the kind of force it would take to do that to somebody. It's clear the killer was bent on not only killing but literally de-facing this boy.

As to the body being moved, I'd really like to read what others here have to say on that, and see if anyone concurs with my thoughts on it.
 
Just a couple of thoughts...

My assumption is this school was a boarding school for Jewish boys?

If it was another student who did this, he would have had to take a shower and dispose of bloody clothes in the middle of the night. That would be really hard to do. Did the boys at this school have cars? Were there community bathrooms? It just seems that if this crime was done by another student, he would have been detected fairly quickly (trail of blood, suspicious behavior, strange middle of the night showers). Also, I don't recall seeing it in any of the published reports, but I wonder where his room was in relation to the staircase...or in relation to the restrooms. If *I* were an intruder, I would duck in to the first room, rather than walking down a hall. You never know who is going to be up late studying or heading down the hall to use the restroom. Finally, the dorms I lived in were LOUD. Even when someone tried to quietly shut a door, you could hear it. Plus, the physical strength required to carry out the crime seems to be more than most teens are capable of. Based on the limited reports, I am leaning away from the other students.

Now, the Polish immigrants living on-campus is very interesting, especially if they carried anti-Jewish sentiments. Would this group have been tight enough to alibi each other? Chaim is described as friendly and popular among other students. However, is it possible he was a "rich kid" who treated the staff *not so nice*? With parents who were Holocaust survivors, the anti-Polish sentiment might have been an undercurrent in Cheim's home. It could just take one comment or sneer to make somebody snap.
 
One would think that if one of the Polish workers was known to voice anti-sematic sentiments, the Yeshiva would have dismissed him...JMO

I remember hearing that a witness saw one of the boys from the Yeshiva standing outside,not far from the Yeshiva very early on the morning after Chaim was murdered.The witness stated that the boy was just staring straight ahead...IIRC, LE did ask the boy to come forward and identify himself, but no student ever did come forward.

This was a tragic end to a young life full of promise... IMO the killer sought Chaim out. It would be very interesting to find out where the other students are today, and what their memories of this incident are now. Now that they are mature adults... JMO
 
Just a couple of thoughts...

My assumption is this school was a boarding school for Jewish boys?

If it was another student who did this, he would have had to take a shower and dispose of bloody clothes in the middle of the night. That would be really hard to do. Did the boys at this school have cars? Were there community bathrooms? It just seems that if this crime was done by another student, he would have been detected fairly quickly (trail of blood, suspicious behavior, strange middle of the night showers). Also, I don't recall seeing it in any of the published reports, but I wonder where his room was in relation to the staircase...or in relation to the restrooms. If *I* were an intruder, I would duck in to the first room, rather than walking down a hall. You never know who is going to be up late studying or heading down the hall to use the restroom. Finally, the dorms I lived in were LOUD. Even when someone tried to quietly shut a door, you could hear it. Plus, the physical strength required to carry out the crime seems to be more than most teens are capable of. Based on the limited reports, I am leaning away from the other students.

Now, the Polish immigrants living on-campus is very interesting, especially if they carried anti-Jewish sentiments. Would this group have been tight enough to alibi each other? Chaim is described as friendly and popular among other students. However, is it possible he was a "rich kid" who treated the staff *not so nice*? With parents who were Holocaust survivors, the anti-Polish sentiment might have been an undercurrent in Cheim's home. It could just take one comment or sneer to make somebody snap.


The link provided a few posts back, where one of Chaim's classmates chimed in, states that his room was next to the staircase that led to the door with a broken lock.

That thread has a pretty compelling theory actually. With what has been said about Chaim's "sharp tongue" and the temper of one of the former janitors who had been dismissed...

I think this was planned specifically for Halloween by someone who realized blood on them might not stand out all that much on that night. Acc'd to the link above the crime scene was pretty much a bloodbath :( And no one was reported covered in blood & gore? Halloween.
 
I go back to the strict religious practices and beliefs. Could this young man have done something that his murderer thought justified this punishment? Had he "ruined" a girl or anything like that? I'm not trying to smear this boys name or memory, but this thought comes to mind. Fifteen is an age of raging hormones. Or, by orthodox law, what acts would be punishable by death that fit in the realm of possibility with this young boy? I think the religion is the key, and that this was punishment for some perceived and unforgivable deed? Or, had something been done to him that he was being silenced for, or that he had witnessed?

I found a short mention of Chaim Weiss on the site Failed Messiah "Covering Orthodox Judaism Since 2004." It is a news article about a newlywed Jewish man who had just married and committed suicide. Come to find out, he had been molested while at a Yeshiva, posibably by a Rabbi. I read both articles at the links and there are mentions of Rabbis covering up sexual abuse in Yeshivas. Anyway, some commenters are talking about other coverups that have occured at Yeshivas.

So, could be possible that Chaim's murder was covered up by the Yeshiva?


http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/fa...n-kills-himself-2-days-after-wedding-789.html
It's probably a good chance that he was molested as a child. Meanwhile, check out the link below re: an unsolved murder at the Yeshia Of Long Beach in 1986. I remember when it happened and that it was covered up.

We could use some good investigative reporting over here.

http://www.unsolved.com/ajaxfiles/une_chaim_weiss.htm

Posted by: MalachHamovies | November 07, 2009 at 10:24 PM


http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/fa...so-because-of-sex-abuse-suffered-as--123.html

Please excuse my terrible cut and paste job. I do not know how to format it better.
 
Great post.

Everyone who was there, or attended a similar school, and who spoke up in the forums was incredibly emphatic that molestation could never possibly have occurred. Nor homosexuality between students. It was just flat out, "No way, that didn't happen", end of subject, with no pause for entertaining the possibility at all.

Made me wonder. If this is a massive, massive taboo, if it's so unthinkable that a teacher or rabbi could molest someone there that it is dismissed utterly as a possibility in the minds of these former students, then perhaps it could indicate that this was an avenue that was never properly looked into.

Also, good point about it being Halloween, re the blood. I would still like to know how accessible that fire escape was to the ground... the open window could have been a point of access and escape, which maybe opens up the possibility of the perp being a stranger to Chaim a bit more.
 
One would think that if one of the Polish workers was known to voice anti-sematic sentiments, the Yeshiva would have dismissed him...JMO

I remember hearing that a witness saw one of the boys from the Yeshiva standing outside,not far from the Yeshiva very early on the morning after Chaim was murdered.The witness stated that the boy was just staring straight ahead...IIRC, LE did ask the boy to come forward and identify himself, but no student ever did come forward.

This was a tragic end to a young life full of promise... IMO the killer sought Chaim out. It would be very interesting to find out where the other students are today, and what their memories of this incident are now. Now that they are mature adults... JMO

Yes, I would suspect they know a great deal but have blocked most of it out. I'm sure it was so traumatizing most of them went in to denial.
I haven't heard any detail about Chaim's parents. What type of work did his father do? What is the family history? Is there anything in that family's past that could have triggered this unimaginable horror?
 
From what I read -- all four of Chaim's grandparents and his father were holocaust survivors. His father was a penniless refugee when he came to America, but built himself up through hard work and eventually became a renowned businessperson and multi-millionaire. It was said he was akin to Trump, just not so bent on getting attention.

There were rumours in posts about Mr. Weiss' business being connected to the mob somehow, but this is not substantiated in any way. Rumours about rumours, it seems.

It made me wonder if this was a kidnapping attempt gone wrong. But Chaim's wounds are all on the right side of his head (implying that this was the side accessible to the killer, ie, Chaim was asleep and turned on his left side when attacked) and that the first blow kill Chaim outright. So I cannot see it as anything short of a deliberate, brutal murder.

But was Chaim a target, or a random victim? There's plenty to suggest either scenario.
 
From what I read -- all four of Chaim's grandparents and his father were holocaust survivors. His father was a penniless refugee when he came to America, but built himself up through hard work and eventually became a renowned businessperson and multi-millionaire. It was said he was akin to Trump, just not so bent on getting attention.

There were rumours in posts about Mr. Weiss' business being connected to the mob somehow, but this is not substantiated in any way. Rumours about rumours, it seems.

It made me wonder if this was a kidnapping attempt gone wrong. But Chaim's wounds are all on the right side of his head (implying that this was the side accessible to the killer, ie, Chaim was asleep and turned on his left side when attacked) and that the first blow kill Chaim outright. So I cannot see it as anything short of a deliberate, brutal murder.

But was Chaim a target, or a random victim? There's plenty to suggest either scenario.

Two thoughts from your post. First, mode obvious. Retribution over a bad business deal? Second thought....tied to the holocaust. Did the father sacrifice someone else to save his own life? Is this an eye for an eye? Hurt Chaim's father by destroying what he loved the most? This was no kidnapping attempt. This was an execution.
 
This was an execution.

I concur.

- Chaim was killed by the first blow. Someone snuck into his room, and stabbed that poor child in the head so hard as he slept as to break his skull and sever his spinal column. That was on the first blow. This killer was not messing about - there's no hesitancy there. That first blow says a lot about what the killer intended. He intended Chaim to die, and die quickly.

This does not indicate lack of experience, to me. And it's what makes me lean harder toward the murder resembling more a hit than out of control rage. The killer was not out of control at all, IMO.

And that might be why the crime scene was staged after Chaim's death, to make it appear that a crazed, random killer had done it.

Another case I've spent years researching for and pondering on has a similar level of post-mortem staging. And I tend to look at staged crime scenes this way:

-- If it looks like the crime went down a certain way, surely it pays to look in precisely the opposite direction. Or why would the killer bother doing it all, considering how risky this usually is in terms of time spent at a crime scene? (I am not referring to 'posing' a body here, which is a different thing entirely).
 
OK, reread through the linked thread. I read all the posts of the actual classmate, but did not read the later posts of a different classmate's friend. This is the guy everybody has quoted.

The one main fact that I missed was that Chaim was actually stabbed 12 times in the face/neck area, which is a classic case of overkill. According to textbook, overkill like this is the sign of a personal relationship and the need to depersonalize the victim.

However I did an exercise which is grim, but necessary to step into the shoes of the killer. I wanted to feel the emotion that comes with 12 stabbing motions to get an idea what emotion the killer was feeling. I believe this is important in determining a motive. I invite anybody else to do this exercise.

The feeling I got from unloading 12 fast downward stabbing motions was ANGER. Almost a HATRED feeling. One stab was not enough. The killer needed to get ALL OF HIS ANGER OUT on Chaim. This killer HATED HIM!!!!!!

But it was not extreme overkill. Extreme overkill is Jack the Ripper style. Lizzie Borden for example hit her stepmother with a hatchet 19 times (allegedly). Pick up a hatchet and swing at something 19 times. 5 or 6 might get your anger out, but anything more is either intense long-term anger or a need to depersonalize the victim. Chaim's killing stopped short of that and I believe that is important in understanding the motive.

After that intense exercise and considering the facts of the case I feel strongly (and this is my personal opinion) that the motive was HATE. This hate could have come from two general possibilities. The killer hated Chaim personally, or hated Jews in general.

I've eliminated the whole death ritual theory in my mind. Judaism just isn't the kind of religion to have things like that. The side door with a broken lock lead to a staircase directly to the third floor where Chaim's room and a few other doors were. This, to me, opens the door that this really was random. The only way in is the side door, and Chaim was right by that door. Now if the killer went through that door, went down to the 2nd floor and committed a murder there, now THAT would be a targeted killing. If there were only a few doors, then it is perfectly likely that the killer would only open a few doors before he found a student by himself.

I'm leaning towards the hate crime theory. This was a guy (women are much less likely to commit this kind of murder) who hated Jews, had some sort of major stressor in his life and decided to take it out on a random Jewish boy.

This killer was also a coward. He could have killed any Jew, but chose to kill a boy while he was asleep. He was also paranoid enough to come back and make sure he didn't leave anything.
 
I concur.

- Chaim was killed by the first blow. Someone snuck into his room, and stabbed that poor child in the head so hard as he slept as to break his skull and sever his spinal column. That was on the first blow. This killer was not messing about - there's no hesitancy there. That first blow says a lot about what the killer intended. He intended Chaim to die, and die quickly.

This does not indicate lack of experience, to me. And it's what makes me lean harder toward the murder resembling more a hit than out of control rage. The killer was not out of control at all, IMO.

And that might be why the crime scene was staged after Chaim's death, to make it appear that a crazed, random killer had done it.

Another case I've spent years researching for and pondering on has a similar level of post-mortem staging. And I tend to look at staged crime scenes this way:

-- If it looks like the crime went down a certain way, surely it pays to look in precisely the opposite direction. Or why would the killer bother doing it all, considering how risky this usually is in terms of time spent at a crime scene? (I am not referring to 'posing' a body here, which is a different thing entirely).

We don't know if it was staged. It is just as likely the killer moved the body because he felt he dropped something.

Also, I'd think hit men don't generally do more than they have to. 12 stabs to the face is a rage killing (but not a super duper rage like the Manson killings). The killer may have been experienced since there did not seem to be a hesitation blow. I'd imagine even if a first-time killer was angry, they would still hesitate a bit before going in a rage.

I'm telling you, do 12 fast stabbing motions and tell me this was a controlled, professional murder. This was an angry killer.
 
I see your points, and they are good ones.

However, I do think it's very possible that the crime was staged. If you look at how Chaim's body was found, half on the bed and half off -- try lying in that position (position B, the first move from bed to floor), go utterly limp and then have somebody move you over two feet (to position C, the final one) and see what happens. It's really awkward, and gosh do be careful, but it's really worth doing for some perspective on the physics of the motion involved.

The first stab wound killed Chaim outright. Yes, the other 11 blows were well and truly overkill. No doubt there.

But I must disagree that overkill is always a sign of knowing the victim. Plenty of killers do such things to victims chosen at random. It could be rage, yes I do agree and yes, I can totally see how that emotion can fuel such an act.

But was it rage? Or someone trying to make it look like rage, after the first blow well and truly achieved the goal of killing Chaim? It's a possibility I am not willing to dismiss out of hand.

And before I accept that the killer came up the stairs directly to Chaim's room, I'd like to know if there was any way the fire escape (which the boys used to sit on, exiting Chaim's window) could have been the point of entry.

Also -- I don't agree that it wasn't 'extreme overkill'. There's no bar set as to how many blows equals what level of overkill. I'd say 11 blows after you've smashed someone's skull in with a knife that penetrated through to the spine is certainly extreme.

And it's certainly well within the bounds of Jack the Ripper's level of violence, for most of his crimes anyway.

But was it rage? I dunno for sure, can't get a bead on that yet.
 
I see your points, and they are good ones.

However, I do think it's very possible that the crime was staged. If you look at how Chaim's body was found, half on the bed and half off -- try lying in that position (position B, the first move from bed to floor), go utterly limp and then have somebody move you over two feet (to position C, the final one) and see what happens. It's really awkward, and gosh do be careful, but it's really worth doing for some perspective on the physics of the motion involved.

The first stab wound killed Chaim outright. Yes, the other 11 blows were well and truly overkill. No doubt there.

But I must disagree that overkill is always a sign of knowing the victim. Plenty of killers do such things to victims chosen at random. It could be rage, yes I do agree and yes, I can totally see how that emotion can fuel such an act.

But was it rage? Or someone trying to make it look like rage, after the first blow well and truly achieved the goal of killing Chaim? It's a possibility I am not willing to dismiss out of hand.

And before I accept that the killer came up the stairs directly to Chaim's room, I'd like to know if there was any way the fire escape (which the boys used to sit on, exiting Chaim's window) could have been the point of entry.

Also -- I don't agree that it wasn't 'extreme overkill'. There's no bar set as to how many blows equals what level of overkill. I'd say 11 blows after you've smashed someone's skull in with a knife that penetrated through to the spine is certainly extreme.

And it's certainly well within the bounds of Jack the Ripper's level of violence, for most of his crimes anyway.

But was it rage? I dunno for sure, can't get a bead on that yet.
Let me go back to the religious angle. Would the number of blows correlate with any specific ritual or religious verse? I'm catholic so I think of stations of the cross, the rosary, biblical verse, etc. Would a Jewish person interpret this number with significance other ygM overkill? Associated with a Jewish ritual or tradition of some sort?
 
We don't know if it was staged. It is just as likely the killer moved the body because he felt he dropped something.

Also, I'd think hit men don't generally do more than they have to. 12 stabs to the face is a rage killing (but not a super duper rage like the Manson killings). The killer may have been experienced since there did not seem to be a hesitation blow. I'd imagine even if a first-time killer was angry, they would still hesitate a bit before going in a rage.

I'm telling you, do 12 fast stabbing motions and tell me this was a controlled, professional murder. This was an angry killer.

Dwelling on your rage killing hypothesis makes me wonder what if any criminal history students and faculty had in the years following this horrific crime. Janitors etc too. Did anyone follow that I wonder? This type of miscreant would strike again or reveal aspects of this depravity.
 
Dwelling on your rage killing hypothesis makes me wonder what if any criminal history students and faculty had in the years following this horrific crime. Janitors etc too. Did anyone follow that I wonder? This type of miscreant would strike again or reveal aspects of this depravity.

Or if anybody high tailed it out of the country (back to Poland for example).
 
I see your points, and they are good ones.

However, I do think it's very possible that the crime was staged. If you look at how Chaim's body was found, half on the bed and half off -- try lying in that position (position B, the first move from bed to floor), go utterly limp and then have somebody move you over two feet (to position C, the final one) and see what happens. It's really awkward, and gosh do be careful, but it's really worth doing for some perspective on the physics of the motion involved.

The first stab wound killed Chaim outright. Yes, the other 11 blows were well and truly overkill. No doubt there.

But I must disagree that overkill is always a sign of knowing the victim. Plenty of killers do such things to victims chosen at random. It could be rage, yes I do agree and yes, I can totally see how that emotion can fuel such an act.

But was it rage? Or someone trying to make it look like rage, after the first blow well and truly achieved the goal of killing Chaim? It's a possibility I am not willing to dismiss out of hand.

And before I accept that the killer came up the stairs directly to Chaim's room, I'd like to know if there was any way the fire escape (which the boys used to sit on, exiting Chaim's window) could have been the point of entry.

Also -- I don't agree that it wasn't 'extreme overkill'. There's no bar set as to how many blows equals what level of overkill. I'd say 11 blows after you've smashed someone's skull in with a knife that penetrated through to the spine is certainly extreme.

And it's certainly well within the bounds of Jack the Ripper's level of violence, for most of his crimes anyway.

But was it rage? I dunno for sure, can't get a bead on that yet.


The reason I'm sticking to my rage theory is because 12 blows feels like just enough to get a lot of intense anger out, but stop when the anger was let out. I did not count to 12 when I did the stabbing motions. I just did what felt like 12 motions. If you want total and complete overkill to depersonalize the victim (think the horrible scene from "Irreversible"), you go way over 12. I'm talking 30, 40, 50. There is no bar for what really is overkill, but when I did 12 stabs, it felt just "right" for what someone would do if they were very angry but had enough control to stop once they got the first wave of anger out.

Jack the Ripper was more of a mutilation after death for morbid curiosity type of murder. That was the crime of somebody extremely emotionally unbalanced.

This killer was organized and intelligent enough to quietly sneak in (twice) and sneak out just as quietly without leaving any footprints or fingerprints.

Another thing. This would be a horribly bloody crime scene. How did the killer not leave any bloody fingerprints on any of the doors or any drops of blood outside the room? He must have been wearing gloves. This shows an extra level of preparation. This was not some sort of deranged schizophrenic type of killer (think the Sacramento Vampire).

This strikes me as somebody who can hold himself together in public and social situations (probably married), but has a violent, violent anger. Particularly towards Jews. I feel like he had a major stressor in his life and decided to quietly take it out on a random Jewish boy in the middle of the night. Held himself together, but as soon as he walked in the room, let off an intense amount of rage.

In order to imagine the viciousness of this crime, my stabbing motions were with a closed fist. In my mind this is equivalent to punching someone in the face 12 times. This killer used a sharp, heavy-duty knife. That's an intense amount of rage and hatred.

To find my type of UNSUB, he would probably be known to hate Jews since anybody who would see his explosive temper towards Jews would remember it. Probably does not have a criminal record, but if he does it would be a very nasty domestic abuse assault on his wife or kids. May have military or assassination experience. Knew what he was doing was wrong, but did not care. Planned it fully and kept his mouth shut after.
 
I tried to find a pic of this school and had no luck!
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
99
Guests online
1,566
Total visitors
1,665

Forum statistics

Threads
605,925
Messages
18,195,032
Members
233,648
Latest member
Snoopysnoop
Back
Top