Deceased/Not Found NY - Etan Patz, 6, New York, 25 May 1979 #2 *P. Hernandez guilty*

[Disgusted]

I am a huge civil libertarian, devilsplaything, but I am not frightened at all by LE's pursuit of Ramos. I read After Etan last summer and I highly recommend it.

Ramos did not fail to appear for the civil trial because he was in prison. He was able to respond as long as it was under oath. He had more than a year, and he refused to participate.

We owe a huge debt of gratitude to Stuart GraBois for his diligence in this case. GraBois uncovered evidence that Ramos is a serial child predator. Several times Ramos had come to the attention of LE for child sex crimes but had never been prosecuted.

Ramos had been arrested in NYC but the 3 victims were at-risk boys who were willing to do what Ramos wanted for money and either did not show up for interviews or to testify (I can't remember which).

Another time, Ramos was living in a drain pipe and took a boy's backpack to try to lure him in. But Ramos was gone when police went to investigate. In the belongings left behind were pictures of boys similar to Etan and, I believe, newspaper clippings about Etan.

The woman who was hired to walk Etan to school during the schoolbus strike was Ramos's girlfriend. Her son was about Etan's age. At the time, she said that her son was not molested by Ramos. More recently, she has admitted that he was.

Years after Etan disappeared, Ramos had showed up at the yearly gathering of a group called the Rainbows, or something like that. Some adults found him suspicious because of his interest in luring young boys to his bus. The next year at the gathering, he and a teenage boy traveling with him were reported to local LE for sexual contact with a young boy. The child was itinerant, however, and the case did not go forward. GraBois even tracked the teenage boy to Ohio to determine that the boy was not Etan.

IIRC, the case Ramos is in prison for on Pennsylvania happened right after the second Rainbow gathering. Ramos thought he was more intelligent than everyone else and he would never be convicted. GraBois jumped through hoops to be able to be the prosecutor in that case. He won the case.

At one point, GraBois had Ramos brought to NYC to be interviewed about Etan's disappearance. Ramos confessed to meeting a boy who looked like Etan on May 25, 1979, and bringing him to his apartment for sex. The boy said no, so Ramos said he put him on the subway to go visit his aunt. He said he was 90% sure it was Etan, IIRC. There was a break in the interview, and when it continued Ramos regained control of himself and never said it was Etan. I think that interview is referred to as "the 90% confession."

Ramos is a serial child predator. GraBois did go to great lengths to have him prosecuted and to ensure he did not get out of jail early. But he never did anything illegal or immoral. The prior contacts Ramos had with LE were not pursued successfully and were each viewed in isolation because they were in different jurisdictions. GraBois put it all together and a child predator is now behind bars.

So I salute Mr. GraBois, and I feel no sympathy for Jose Ramos. IMO, Ramos loved the noteriety of being the chief suspect and feeling he had GraBois stymied. Hernandez's confession leaves him as just another child predator, not the one who got away with it.

I just want to thank you for this excellent writeup!

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

I am a huge civil libertarian, devilsplaything, but I am not frightened at all by LE's pursuit of Ramos. I read After Etan last summer and I highly recommend it.

Ramos did not fail to appear for the civil trial because he was in prison. He was able to respond as long as it was under oath. He had more than a year, and he refused to participate.

We owe a huge debt of gratitude to Stuart GraBois for his diligence in this case. GraBois uncovered evidence that Ramos is a serial child predator. Several times Ramos had come to the attention of LE for child sex crimes but had never been prosecuted.

Ramos had been arrested in NYC but the 3 victims were at-risk boys who were willing to do what Ramos wanted for money and either did not show up for interviews or to testify (I can't remember which).

Another time, Ramos was living in a drain pipe and took a boy's backpack to try to lure him in. But Ramos was gone when police went to investigate. In the belongings left behind were pictures of boys similar to Etan and, I believe, newspaper clippings about Etan.

The woman who was hired to walk Etan to school during the schoolbus strike was Ramos's girlfriend. Her son was about Etan's age. At the time, she said that her son was not molested by Ramos. More recently, she has admitted that he was.

Years after Etan disappeared, Ramos had showed up at the yearly gathering of a group called the Rainbows, or something like that. Some adults found him suspicious because of his interest in luring young boys to his bus. The next year at the gathering, he and a teenage boy traveling with him were reported to local LE for sexual contact with a young boy. The child was itinerant, however, and the case did not go forward. GraBois even tracked the teenage boy to Ohio to determine that the boy was not Etan.

IIRC, the case Ramos is in prison for on Pennsylvania happened right after the second Rainbow gathering. Ramos thought he was more intelligent than everyone else and he would never be convicted. GraBois jumped through hoops to be able to be the prosecutor in that case. He won the case.

At one point, GraBois had Ramos brought to NYC to be interviewed about Etan's disappearance. Ramos confessed to meeting a boy who looked like Etan on May 25, 1979, and bringing him to his apartment for sex. The boy said no, so Ramos said he put him on the subway to go visit his aunt. He said he was 90% sure it was Etan, IIRC. There was a break in the interview, and when it continued Ramos regained control of himself and never said it was Etan. I think that interview is referred to as "the 90% confession."

Ramos is a serial child predator. GraBois did go to great lengths to have him prosecuted and to ensure he did not get out of jail early. But he never did anything illegal or immoral. The prior contacts Ramos had with LE were not pursued successfully and were each viewed in isolation because they were in different jurisdictions. GraBois put it all together and a child predator is now behind bars.

So I salute Mr. GraBois, and I feel no sympathy for Jose Ramos. IMO, Ramos loved the noteriety of being the chief suspect and feeling he had GraBois stymied. Hernandez's confession leaves him as just another child predator, not the one who got away with it.

Sympathy for Ramos is not an issue. He molestered children - and is in prison for that crime. Park Rangers on multiple undercover operations discovered Ramos illegal activites with children at the Rainbow Gatherings. Ramos did not harm Etan. GraBaois was investigating Etan Patz case. GraBois stated Ramos was responsible - and had every means of investigating a case possible. Ramos is in prison - no children are being harmed by him. GraBois came across a child molester while investigating a missing 6 year old boy. A common occurance. For 33 years the person who harmed Etan has been on the streets free to harm others. This is a problem.

 

[Wondergirl]

I wanted to find 438 West Broadway, where PH lived in 1979.

According to the detailed Map of locations that I linked here upthread, earlier today, the bus stop was actually on West Broadway.

I did a Google Streetview Walkabout at the link below, and was very surprised to see 438 West Broadway, PH's apartment, is indeed exactly the last spot Etan was seen (well, actually, it has been reported both ways, hasn't it? He made it to the bus stop/he did not make it to the bus stop?).

Anyway, PH's apartment was right beside the bus stop.

Here is a crude Map I did, from a screengrab of 438 West Broadway.

Let me know if I labelled anything wrong, please.

Link to Map. I suggest doing a Goolge Streetview Walk-about yourself:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=438+we...=m&z=17&iwloc=A&panoid=FXOUJ7Wtt_tWnTM8W2BgqA

 

[necco]

Completely false. Hallucinations are not a requirement of schizophrenia by any means whatsoever. Schizophrenia without hallucinations is quite possible and quite common in fact.

They are not ALWAYS present, but they are one of the diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia according to DSM-IV-TR. It's a two or more of these things must be present situation and hallucinations is one of them. No, not all schizophrenics hallucinate, but it is one of the diagnostic criteria. Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I meant was that it was not a separate disorder and should not be listed as such.

Clipped from the DSM-IV-TR about schizophrenia:
"Characteristic symptoms: Two or more of the following, each present for much of the time during a one-month period (or less, if symptoms remitted with treatment).

Delusions
Hallucinations
Disorganized speech, which is a manifestation of formal thought disorder
Grossly disorganized behavior (e.g. dressing inappropriately, crying frequently) or catatonic behavior
Negative symptoms - affective flattening (lack or decline in emotional response), alogia (lack or decline in speech), or avolition (lack or decline in motivation)

If the delusions are judged to be bizarre, or hallucinations consist of hearing one voice participating in a running commentary of the patient's actions or of hearing two or more voices conversing with each other, only that symptom is required above. The speech disorganization criterion is only met if it is severe enough to substantially impair communication. "

 

[wfgodot]

Have we seen this yet? I think I missed it earlier when I read the article, or perhaps NY Daily News posted it later at that location:

The alley between 115 and 113 Thompson Street, where the body of 6-year-old Etan Patz may have been dumped in 1979: http://bit.ly/MOvX9m

New York Times map (from Wondergirl @ #311)

 

[Wondergirl]

Pedro Hernandez is arraigned in Manhattan Criminal Court via video link seen here in this courtroom sketch in New York May 25, 2012. Hernandez, 51, who worked as a stock boy in a small food store on the Manhattan SoHo street where Patz was last seen on May 25, 1979, was charged with a single count of second-degree murder, according to court records.

Photograph by: Shirley Shepherd , Reuters



Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news...tric+defense/6681538/story.html#ixzz1vwZ2bnXe

 

[Wondergirl]

Have we seen this yet? I think I missed it earlier when I read the article, or perhaps NY Daily News posted it later at that location:



New York Times map (from Wondergirl @ #311)

No, I haven't seen it.

That is one super tiny alley way.

Okay, I have a couple of questions, don't really expect any answers, but, food for thought.

1. What time was PH's "usual" work schedule? Did he have a regular schedule?

2. Would PH "normally" be home in his apartment, at the time of the bus picking up the children?

3. When was the Bus Driver strike or interruption, in relation to the date of abduction?

4. Would the children normally "take cover" under the store canopies or otherwise, if it was raining out? (It WAS raining that day, wasn't it? I read that today)

5. Did the Patzes do a run through with Etan, on how to get to the Bus Stop and what to do once there?

6. Was Etan's route to the bus stop, to walk down Prince, cross W. Broadway, then cross Prince again?

7. Was Prince St. a one-way street in 1979?

8. Did whomever walked Etan to the bus stop prior to his abduction, "normally" take the same route to get there?

9. What is the significance of the alley way between 113 and 115 Thompson St.? Had PH been there, or was it a known spot, random....?

10. Did PH carry the remains in a box, and if so, that would have been very heavy.

Here is a link to a Map showing that PH walked 1 block up Prince St., from the Begoda, crossed the street twice, and put Etan in the alleway. Google Maps indicates 1 minute walking time.

MAP:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?saddr=448+West+Broadway,+New+York,+NY,+United+States&daddr=115+Thompson+St,+New+York,+NY+10012,+USA&hl=en&ll=40.72594,-74.00127&spn=0.001165,0.002642&sll=40.725864,-74.001294&sspn=0.001165,0.002642&geocode=FZJtbQIdmdWW-ykN0rTWjVnCiTFQqaCKyps1kw%3BFUVubQIdONKW-ynp7RrJjVnCiTFwEIQJOKsb_w&oq=448+West+Broadway,+New+York,+NY,+United+States&mra=ls&t=m&z=19

 

[Imbackon]

I don't want to read the whole thread to find it, but has it been posted anywhere about old fbi profiles done on this case. I'm just wondering if it was close in matches to Hernandez.

 

[Wondergirl]

The more I think about it, the less likely Etan was "carried" in a bag.

I presumed garbage bags, because he was left with the garbage in the alley way, according to PH.

The box scenario makes more sense, since a box would not be conspicuous for a stock boy, but, would certainly be heavy.

I have seen references to dismemberment, but, I don't believe that was every fully stated by the Commissioner last night in the presser.

If there was dismemberment, it would explain how PH was able to readily carry Etan in the "bag". Otherwise, something is missing here, IMO.

Also, if there was dismemberment, then I believe LE would be in that bodega basement right now, and I don't believe they are.

 

[wfgodot]

3. When was the Bus Driver strike or interruption, in relation to the date of abduction?

Okay, here's as good as I could do with this one - two abstracts from the NY Times pay-for-articles site, May 1979:

May 09, 1979,
Section Metropolitan Report, Page B1, Column , words

A tentative settlement in the strike by school-bus drivers was reached last night after an earlier accord to end the threemonth-old wildcat walkout collapsed over the key issue of job security.

May 13, 1979,
Section The Week In Review, Page E6, Column , words

When the three-month-long wildcat walkout by public school bus drivers was settled last week, parents of children unable to get to school for most of the spring semester wondered whether their children had been the pawns in a battle that had little to do with transportation or education.

http://spiderbites.nytimes.com/pay_1979/index.html

The strike was tentatively settled on 08 May, a Tuesday.
Bus service probably resumed at some point that week.
Etan disappeared on 25 May, a Friday.

 

[wfgodot]

10. Did PH carry the remains in a box, and if so, that would have been very heavy.

Etan is listed on Charley Project as having weighed 50 pounds - not that heavy for an eighteen year old grocery stocker at a bodega who had yet to hurt his back working construction.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/patz_etan.html

 

[Wondergirl]

Okay, I am presuming that this very narrow wooden door was not on the alleyway when PH went there with Etan's remains.

Again, it is a very small space, and depending on the Garbage Pick-Up day in relation to May 25th, I find it odd that Etan's remains could have been there up to 2 days, and there wasn't any decomposition that would have alerted people or even animals.

This is the spot in SoHo that Pedro Hernandez directed detectives to after he confessed to a brutal crime that crushed the 6-year-old boy’s parents and bedeviled detectives for more than three decades.

And this is the dead end, between 113 and 115 Thompson St., that crime scene detectives returned to Friday with faint hopes of finding any new clues to a 33-year-old mystery.

Fittingly, the sign on the doorway leading into the space reads Omen, which is the name of a Japanese restaurant that now sits by the passage.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...rt-appearance-article-1.1084474#ixzz1vwiN3dAi

 

[wfgodot]

I don't want to read the whole thread to find it, but has it been posted anywhere about old fbi profiles done on this case. I'm just wondering if it was close in matches to Hernandez.

I haven't been able to find one in a search of these two threads.

 

[Wondergirl]

If PH did not put Etan in a box, and he carried him that one block in a bag, what kind of bag? Where did the bag come from? He would have been lugging that bag.

The practicality of carrying the bag with that kind of weight in it required some thought.

Even a box. What sort of box would hold 50 lbs of weight, without breaking through the bottom? It is more weight than one might think.

A body could not be carried in garbage bags that distance, IMO.

 

[wfgodot]

If PH did not put Etan in a box, and he carried him that one block in a bag, what kind of bag? Where did the bag come from? He would have been lugging that bag.

The practicality of carrying the bag with that kind of weight in it required some thought.

Even a box. What sort of box would hold 50 lbs of weight, without breaking through the bottom? It is more weight than one might think.

A body could not be carried in garbage bags that distance, IMO.

A large garbage bag? Fifty pounds, a little over a block? Not hard to do for an eighteen-year-old shelf stocker maintaining a rush of post-kill adrenaline. Etan was 3'4" - only 40" long, and his body could easily be folded and fit in a mid-sized box or a large garbage sack.

 

[Wondergirl]

Children pause at the memorial for Etan Patz outside the former bodega at 448 West Broadway where Etan may have been killed in 1979

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...rt-appearance-article-1.1084474#ixzz1vwmLMete

 

[Wondergirl]

Some words from the former owner of the bodega, and a possible motive for why PH killed Etan:

John Saracco, whose dad Charles owned the building from 1950 to 2005, said he remembers the bodega but has no recollection of Hernandez.

“It was a different world back then,” said Saracco, who grew up in Queens. “I just feel bad that it happened in something we owned.”

Hernandez was an 18-year-old stock clerk there when Etan vanished.

Under questioning, he said he used the promise of a cold soda to lure the little boy into the bodega basement, where he strangled him and stuffed him into a bag.

Then, Hernandez said, he dumped the boy’s body about a block away.

Hernandez did not explain why he killed Etan, although he did say at one point that the boy reminded him of a nephew he didn’t like, a police source said. He did not specify which of his many nephews.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...rt-appearance-article-1.1084474#ixzz1vwmwEBdd

 

[Wondergirl]

A large garbage bag? Fifty pounds, a little over a block? Not hard to do for an eighteen-year-old shelf stocker maintaining a rush of post-kill adrenaline. Etan was 3'4" - only 40" long, and his body could easily be folded and fit in a mid-sized box or a large garbage sack.

We will have to agree to disagree, WF.

While I agree with you that Etan's body would have "fit" in a garbage sack, a "regular" garbage bag would hold a maximum of 25-35 lbs, max, and there is no way he could have walked that distance without it breaking, IMO, with 50 lbs of weight. I wouldn't bet on that. JMO

 

[Wondergirl]

Some more on PH's brother-in-law, and his first wife, who isn't talking.

Hernandez moved to New Jersey and married twice. His first wife, Daisy Rivera, lives in Camden and refused to speak to reporters about her infamous ex.

“I really can’t,” she said and drove off in a white Chrysler 300 with a license plate that read “Daisexy.”

Hernandez was living with his second wife and daughter in leafy Maple Shade, N.J., when the law finally caught up to him.

There were reports that Hernandez’s brother-in-law, Jose Lopez, tipped cops off.

“No doubt about it,” Lopez replied when asked if he believes Hernandez killed the boy.

But as he and his wife Margarita ducked into their Pennsauken, N.J., home, he insisted, “I didn’t say a thing.”

Asked who did, Lopez replied, “That doesn't matter, it’s already done.”


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...rt-appearance-article-1.1084474#ixzz1vwpkVuog

 

[wfgodot]

We will have to agree to disagree, WF.

While I agree with you that Etan's body would have "fit" in a garbage sack, a "regular" garbage bag would hold a maximum of 25-35 lbs, max, and there is no way he could have walked that distance without it breaking, IMO, with 50 lbs of weight. I wouldn't bet on that. JMO

Those heavy duty leaf sacks are strong things - people use those for garbage that bulks out. Maybe he double-bagged him. He would be carrying this in his arms, close to his body, not by the top of the sack of something, one-handed. There wouldn't necessarily be much strain on the plastic material of the bag at all. He enters the alley and lays the body down. (Horrible to think about this, btw.)