NY - Ex-President Donald Trump, charged with 34 criminal counts of falsifying business records, Apr 2023, Trial 25 Mar 2024 #2

[mooseandcoffee]

How do you know it‘s leading somewhere? We have to wait and see what’s in it.

Just like the topic of this thread - the big 34 count indictment - every media outlet and reputable expert on all sides said we don’t know what‘s in it. Well now we know. And even pundits on the left have used words like underwhelming and thin.

imo

Some pundits. Some.

 

[mooseandcoffee]

It's totally relevant.

The DA in this case is known for taking felony cases and reducing them to misdemeanors while with Trump, for some reason, he's taking a misdemeanor case and trying to turn it into a felony case. Why? JMO.

DA's cut deals all the time. We don't know those cases or the circumstances.

And if that DA is making deals for people with LOTS of charges...maybe eventually that will work out for DT.

 

[mooseandcoffee]

Do you know that for a fact? As I would assume all the documents regarding the charges were given to the defendant's attorneys. I believe this is the law in NY (and most places).

What the prosecution seems to be doing is handling this in a way (Grand Jury rather than Arrest Affidavit, etc; no detailed examination of the charges in open court) that allows the defendant more privacy and leniency than most criminal defendants might expect. I don't think the Judge is way out of line in permitting this, considering the situation and that so far, none of the crimes alleged are violent crimes.

But how do you know that Trump and his attorneys know nothing about the charges? Wouldn't at least one of his attorneys attended the Grand Jury hearing? Or are you saying that Trump is unlikely to have paid his attorneys to do this? It's a major violation of US law to refuse to let the defense know the charges, I just think they've kept the charges sealed (and I'm surprised there is no gag order).

Anyway - where did you read that Trump's attorneys were not given the full set of legal documents? Trump has no separate way of approaching the court at this time, unless he represents himself, which is of course not going to be a thing.

IMO.

DT won't represent himself....but he is completely the kind of guy who would. JMO.

 

[Missing Susan]

Regardless of who pays, the payment of hush-money to influence the outcome of an election is not legal in NY State or federally (campaign finance law). Reported or not, the hush-money payments are statutory in-kind campaign donations. They must be properly reported/recorded as campaign donations. The hush payment by Cohen exceeds the legal donation limit ($2,700). The payments were not reported by donor or by campaign- that's not legal. Motive exists to influence outcome of election. Motive exists to hide the hush-money NDA arrangement(s) from the public, and motive exists again, to hide those hush-money misdemeanor with false business records. MOO

Congressional slush fund - not gonna address - don't know and seems a red-herring/irrelevant here IMO.

Disagree that either of the diagrams relies on the "pathway to ensnare a politician into an in-kind campaign donation". Campaign finance illegalities are present, but an additional issue that is not included in charges at this time.

The charts depict an attorney-produced chart that flushes out concepts that might explain what Prosecution's theory(s) might be. The charts reference campaign violations, but neither chart relies on campaign violations.

The first chart uses only NY state law.

The second chart identifies Federal law the Prosecution may choose to argue along with the NY state law.

First level false records - misdemeanor.
Both diagrams identify the Trump entities creating (cover-up) false record of Cohen's invoices as the first level falsified records misdemeanor. This is solid, simple NY State Statuatory Law; a False business financial record (checks/accounting books) is a misdemeanor.

Second level false records - felony.
Both diagrams show the bumping-level of the (cover-up) false records are the reimbursements to Cohen for Cohen's sham invoices. These false records are a felony. This is also solid, simple NY State Statutory Law; a False record made with the intent of covering an underlying misdemeanor is no longer a misdemeanor, but a felony.

Charges on the Indictment - based on Second level false records - felony.
Each record paying Cohen is a felony. 34 of them. In NY State, the Prosecution is required to identify the underlying crime (here the 1st level misdemeanors) that bumps-up each Cohen payment to a felony charge.

The diagrams detail other crimes and laws broken in this "catch and kill scheme", however these are additional "guessing the theory" comments. By NY Statute, None of the "other" detailed crimes need to be charged or proven - in order to successfully prosecute the 34 false record felonies. Some "other" crimes include: the conspiracy w/ several catch and kill schemes, the conspiracy to falsify records, various campaign finance law violations, or other false record crimes.

The DA mentioned some "other" crimes, but has not brought charges based on these "others". He mentions them for context. For intent, for motive. With organized planning. Defense can add/refine charges through this early process of back and forth.

The bottom line is that the 34 felony false record charges stand on their own. The underlying misdemeanors are also false records; in NY, they don't need to be tried to bump the next false records to felony level from misdemeanor.

Any other related/underlying crimes are mentioned as explanations, intent, organization, and motives for the cover-up. But so far those underlying items (e.g. conspiracy, campaign finance) are are not being prosecuted.

Calling what cohen did a campaign donation is a huge leap. It is much more in the line of a campaign loan if we are forced to view it as something something other than an lawyer/client transaction.. How is it a donation if it is invoiced and reimbursed?

 

[mooseandcoffee]

I really would like to know if the statue of limitations can be extended to over six years in this case. I have my doubts. JMO.

Yes, New York’s five-year statute of limitations for felonies can be extended in some cases

Former President Trump claims the statute of limitations ran out on the felony crimes he was convicted of in New York. Here’s what we can VERIFY about state law.

www.verifythis.com

Again, the DA is obviously going to monitor this.

 

[everybodhi]

I think you are correct.

If Cohen was on the Trump Org's payroll, that's where his alliances lay. Or, should have.

Still, that does not excuse writing a bogus letter to the FEC. That would be highly illegal.

How long was he in jail?

 

[everybodhi]

Calling what cohen did a campaign donation is a huge leap. It is much more in the line of a campaign loan if we are forced to view it as something something other than an lawyer/client transaction.. How is it a donation if it is invoiced and reimbursed?

Because it’s purpose was to benefit the campaign

 

[RANCH]

Yes, New York’s five-year statute of limitations for felonies can be extended in some cases

Former President Trump claims the statute of limitations ran out on the felony crimes he was convicted of in New York. Here’s what we can VERIFY about state law.

www.verifythis.com

Again, the DA is obviously going to monitor this.

My concern is if this tolling to get the SOL extension will stand up in court. JMO.

 

[RANCH]

DA's cut deals all the time. We don't know those cases or the circumstances.

And if that DA is making deals for people with LOTS of charges...maybe eventually that will work out for DT.

I don't think that DA Bragg's will turn a misdemeanor into a felony and then turn it back into a misdemeanor. JMO.

 

[everybodhi]

My concern is if this tolling to get the SOL extension will stand up in court. JMO.

If the NY law were not in place a two term POTUS could shoot someone on 5th Ave. within that 5 year window and never be charged with murder since there is also the argument the sitting Presidents cannot be criminally charged.
Edited to add I just realized murder has no SOL so substitute any other crime

 

[Tricia]

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[MyBelle]

DA's cut deals all the time. We don't know those cases or the circumstances.

And if that DA is making deals for people with LOTS of charges...maybe eventually that will work out for DT.

In Trump's case, the DA has found additional evidence that takes the misdemeanor to a felony. I don't believe he will offer Trump any kind of deal because Trump would have to admit his guilt. Trump is still sticking to his witch hunt rhetoric.

 

[RANCH]

If the NY law were not in place a two term POTUS could kill someone on 5th Ave. within that 5 year window and never be charged with murder since there is also the argument the sitting Presidents cannot be criminally charged.

That's an extreme hypothetical that I doubt the creators of the NY law had in mind when they wrote it.

I think it was mainly designed for people who fled the state to avoid prosecution. At least that makes the most sense. Which doesn't fit this case at all .

If this case doesn't get dismissed we may see this question resolved during an appeal. JMO.

 

[everybodhi]

I don't think that DA Bragg's will turn a misdemeanor into a felony and then turn it back into a misdemeanor. JMO.

Yeah, Trump is unlikely to make a plea deal even if one were offered, imo.

 

[GRT]

This thread could turn into a nightmare for mods, so I hope we can all keep the discussion centered on the charges, their merit, and the liklihood of Trump being convicted.

I did a little research today and I found several articles citing legal experts with both opinions. Some were adamant there was a chance for a conviction. Others were just as adamant it would never happen.

Personally, I’m in the second camp. I’m not a Trump fan, and I’m not a Republican, but I think these charges will eventually be dismissed. On the off-hand that they do go trial, I don’t think Trump will be convicted.

There are too many iffy things going on here. I’ve posted both the official letters from Cohen’s attorney to the FEC and the FEC’s letter stating they would not pursue any charges. Against anyone. In that letter, they seem surprised Cohen plead guilty to a campaign finance violation. Keep in mind that Cohen’s plea doesn’t mean squat when it comes to Trump. Pleas often include charges not even associated with the crime being punished—in Cohen’s case, the real charges surrounded his taxes and personal finances.

Then, we have the factor that Trump did not reimburse Cohen until well after Trump took office, and, according to Cohen, Trump had no idea Cohen made the payment until much later. If true, that removes the election violation. If the election violation is gone, all the other charges that depend on it are also moot.


Then we have another factor and that is that Bragg is using untested, no-precedent procedure to charge what it typically a misdeanor as a felony. How likely is that to stand? My personal opinion is, not likely. Plus, the statute of limitations already ran out and Bragg had to use another iffy maneuver to try and extend it.

Yet another factor is that the FEC typically deals with infractions of this size via fines—not criminal charges. That makes these charges pretty suspect.

One last thing — who thinks Trump falsified his business records? Who thinks Trump actually deals with his business records? Keep in mind that when he reimbursed Cohen, Trump had already divested “control” of his business.

For those reasons, I don’t think there’s much of a chance that Trump will ever be convicted.

Before I read the indictment, I really thought there must be more severe charges. I was wrong. These are all relatively minor charges.

The one thing I will go out on a limb and predict is an increased likihood that Trump may be reelected now. Much to my chagrin.

 

[RANCH]

Yeah, Trump is unlikely to make a plea deal even if one were offered, imo.

I don't think he should because this case is so weak and it's likely he will prevail in the end. JMO.

 

[SouthAussie]

I think DA Bragg knows the law and what can be prosecuted. Whether the trial judge agrees with him or not is yet to be seen.

Just as a little background, DA Bragg has worked as both a state and a federal prosecutor. He is a Harvard graduate. He was overwhelmingly elected to his current position, being one of only 4 people elected to this office in 80 years.

One of his long-term specialties is white collar crime ...


"He secured a 6-count indictment against Stephen K. Bannon and WeBuildTheWall, Inc., a Florida-based not-for-profit corporation, on charges including money laundering, conspiracy, and scheme to defraud in connection with a year-long fundraising scheme that netted more than $15 million from thousands of donors across the country based on false promises."

"He also secured the conviction of Trump Organization Chief Financial Officer Allen Weisselberg on 15 felony counts in connection with a long-running tax evasion scheme."

"He launched a dedicated Housing and Tenant Protection Unit to investigate and prosecute landlords and developers who engage in systemic fraud and tenant harassment. And he is committed to prosecute employers who steal wages and endanger workers."

About the Office

One Standard of Justice for All

manhattanda.org

 

[everybodhi]

That's an extreme hypothetical that I doubt the creators of the NY law had in mind when they wrote it.

I think it was mainly designed for people who fled the state to avoid prosecution. At least that makes the most sense. Which doesn't fit this case at all .

If this case doesn't get dismissed we may see this question resolved during an appeal. JMO.

The law is written as someone trying to hide and someone who went to another state, clearly covering two separate scenarios

 

[GRT]

I don't think he should because this case is so weak and it's likely he will prevail in the end. JMO.

I agree.

I think there’s about 0.05% chance of a conviction.

 

[RANCH]

The law is written as someone trying to hide and someone who went to another state, clearly covering two separate scenarios

The part that punishes someone for simply moving to another state doesn't seem to be constitutional to me.

Another thing is President Trump maintained a home and spent considerable time in New York during the relevant time frame. So he wasn't "continuously outside this state." JMO.

(a) Any period following the commission of the offense during which (i) the defendant was continuously outside this state or (ii) the whereabouts of the defendant were continuously unknown and continuously unascertainable by the exercise of reasonable diligence. However, in no event shall the period of limitation be extended by more than five years beyond the period otherwise applicable under subdivision two.

Yes, New York’s five-year statute of limitations for felonies can be extended in some cases

Former President Trump claims the statute of limitations ran out on the felony crimes he was convicted of in New York. Here’s what we can VERIFY about state law.

www.verifythis.com