Found Deceased NY - Jennifer Ramsaran, 36, Chenango County, 11 Dec 2012 - # 2

[Lavanda Dolce]

Actually... I HAVE lost a son.... and I can say during that horrible time hesitancy to interfere with legal issues was THE. FURTHEST. THING. FROM. MY. MIND...

My DH and I found our 7 1/2 week old son not breathing.. we started CPR as we were calling 9-1-1... and ALL we could think of was to get our son breathing again...

We lost him to SIDS... and this may not be exactly the same as missing persons... but not even all missing peoples' cases are the same... each case is unique...

So ... yes... I HAVE been in a situation of life and death... and legal ramifications were not even a consideration to me... nor my husband...

JMO

I think that many are missing the actual point to the searching part. So please let me explain further with more clarity.
Since these comments have been repeatedly in response to my posts I will respond the same.
Yes. I know the fears of a special needs son going missing. I have an adult son, 23, with multiple medical, autism and extreme vulnerability. Yes, I've experienced the same heart stopping painful moments as his first grand mall seizure at 11 months old resulted in respiratory arrest and I too had to perform cpr. I've watched him go through status-epileptus in which his young body seized continually for over 30 minutes and they couldnt get IVs into him at 4 years old to put his brain into a coma with over 17 staff members of the hospital who tried. Yes. 17 IV attempts. Guess who got it in? Me, his mother.
When a young boy in my community went missing the police and all in the neighborhood went out searching for him. I did not because at the time of his missing status I was working at the same hospital that invariably his near lifeless body was found. Do you know where it was found? In the woods directly behind my home. He died. A victim of homicide. 2 boys wanted his bike. So much so they raped him with a stick. Yes, his own father and uncle found him.
What is the difference between all these searches and adult missing?
Urgency.
The urgent need to get CPR performed, the urgent need to find a missing child who "normally" do not go missing on their own. The urgent need to find a vulnerable person with cognitive disorders that cannot make appropriate choices nor decisions.
I can tell you that it is rare that a police department has ever formed a search party and go out and start IMMEDIATE URGENT searches the same as the above examples. Why? Because the stigma that an adult "has the right to go missing" still exists. We fight this battle and it is a hard battle to win.
With that said, and I don't want to sound cold here and all of you are aware that I know first hand from the families I work with as to how important, how vital, and how urgent a family needs to know where their missing loved on is and want them home...and no matter "the condition." But urgency still applies...if they are deceased and passed....getting them home as soon as your missing vulnerable person whose life can be saved...makes the urgent difference.
When an adult missing is believed to be a victim of foul play....YES, yes , yes it makes 100% of difference for all protocols, all chain of custody and professional search and rescue to find that person. And YES....every single person here who is trying to say "you know" how you feel....do NOT know how you would feel if you knew your loved one was murdered and while wanting their earthly body recovered....not a one of you realize how important it is for the family who WILL shift from needing their loved one to wanting justice. We all know that not all evidence is admitted into a court trial. We all know that if an arrest is made on a case that the defending attorney is going to do all possible to have anything and everything that can possibly be thrown out of a case to transpire in order to save his/her client. It's not about what is fair, right, just, or obvious. It's about the law.
With all this said...I now want it to be known that I am done responding to the "community searches (questions) by nonprofessionals." (regular citizens) as it pertains to a potential victim of homicide. No more responding to the same questions asked as I am taking far too much of my time to come and try to assist/clarify and I just do not have the time to continue to repeat the same thing over and again. So if you all want to continue with the same, no problem...just I cannot respond to redundant questions anymore. Please don't take this as harsh, I try to explain the best way possible.

 

[Hexe]

the quit cooking and the weight loss seemed to be around in the same time frame so maybe she quit cooking big meals to help her loose weight and fed her family other things like mac and cheese and hot dogs. It would be interesting to know what "quit cooking" really means.

When I'm on diet smelling food while cooking makes me insanely hungry and I usually end up eating what I shouldn't. If Jennifer had a similar problem and she really wanted to get thinner I really understand why would she quit cooking for her family.

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

(BBM, and respectfully snipped for space)

This list is interesting to me, particularly the bolded parts above. It's difficult because I don't want to get into rumour/forbidden territory but I was wondering what everyone made of the recent changes in JR- along with the weight loss.

We've got

June: starts wearing nail polish
August/September: starts dressing up more when she goes out
October: Stops cooking
December: goes missing

General:
Weight loss (do we know when she started losing weight?)
Water with lemon (probably a weight loss thing)

I wonder if JR made any new female friends last year? To me, the nails and the clothes sound more like the influence of a woman- someone maybe who gets manicures and introduced Jen to them, perhaps encouraged her to try out new looks etc.

IMO while it's nice to know all these facts about Jennifer, I'm not really clear on the purpose of releasing them? I guess some of them might help someone to recognise her? I don't know. They confuse me a little but I might be being obtuse. It does look like what would happen if you gave my husband and a couple of my close friends a big piece of paper and some sharpie pens and said 'write everything you can think of about fringles'- not the content but the random nature of the facts. I guess I feel like maybe it could do with an edit- the places she likes to eat and shop seem useful but I'm really not sure that I need to know that she doesn't like sandwiches.

With what you said...here is a thought: If you were in a restaurant and a woman sat next to you eating a sandwich, looked like Jennifer, and she was wearing a dress...it may give you some insight that possibly the person is not Jennifer after all. It would also give you more courage to perhaps chat with the person and bring up the fact that you had to "look twice" as "I have to tell you, has anyone mentioned how much you look like the missing woman Jennifer Ramsaran?" ...naturally if the person starts to panic ...maybe it could in fact be Jennifer? Sandwich, dress and all. If not...well...you just shared more information about a loved missing woman the public is trying to find and you can even write down her website and pass along to the woman. If anything, curiosity will get to her and you just "shared" info to another. She will tell her best friend..."you'll never believe what happened to me at lunch today"...so that person will look. They are merely "habits" and "likes" to help bring more awareness.

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

Just thinking... If Jennifer did run off, she's managed to stay hidden for a good while. To me she couldn't do that without planning, so presumably there'd be evidence on her computer or phone of some kind of forethought. Given that we've had no statement from LE saying they're leaning that way, I'm inclined to believe that they're not. After all, isn't the general tendency for LE to be more likely to suspect a runaway in the early days of a person being missing, then the longer time goes on without any indication that that's the case, foul play becomes more likely?

With the suicide thing- I do not understand why she would drive around in the mud, find a place, then take her car somewhere and walk back there. Plus, surely it's a pretty long walk from where the car was found to somewhere where nobody would come across her body for this long. There's been no mention of a gun or any medication missing from the house so she'd have had limited options as to method. Without being too graphic- I would imagine computer searches for knot tying would've been needed, and could be found, plus she would've needed rope. Anything high enough to jump off would surely be either a bridge, or a building, so she would've been found. Basically I'm having trouble seeing her harming herself- even just through lack of ways to do it!

I do not think suicide, but it cannot be ruled out. Do you know that last year we held a Shining Hope Event in Texas for a missing young man in a very rural area. The best location was a small grocery store parking lot. A couple of my staff, his mother and family and a scant few from the community came and attended. His body was found 2 months later hanging from a tree in the back of the very grocery store that we held the event.

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

Gosh, I hate to say it, but I doubt my husband would notice little changes like nail polish, or especially when it occurred. Certainly not a month by month detail of when each change took place, lol. Not unless he was studying me for some project, or was gathering evidence against me for some reason.

Well if you rarely wore nail polish he would recognize all of a sudden that your sitting on the couch and telling everyone to "be careful you don't knock my nail polish over" while painting your nails. When that becomes a "new habit" ....it gets noticed.

 

[dillysmom11]

~ respectfully snipped for space.

No. This search was NOT halted by the police. Nor was it disapproved. We must respectfully agree to disagree. I spoke to Lt. Cobb prior to finalizing the search, and although he discouraged the search at first, he said to make sure that two things were done: 1. if anyone sees anything suspicious, STOP and immediately call 911; and 2. be safe. He knew when and where we were meeting, and stated that he understood the communities need to do *something*, *anything* to help. Period.

Again, LE did NOT stop this search, nor did (do) they have the power to do so unless there is an identified crime scene area.

Let me ask two questions of the WS Team Jennifer Family:

1. How many of you would want your community to search for your missing loved one, even if it meant that a searcher may accidentally touch evidence, especially if you didn't know if and when SAR would come to do their own search?

2. How many of you yourselves would go looking for your missing loved one?

My answers:
1. I would
2. I would

Then, if not LE, WHO stopped the search?

The answers to your questions 1 & 2 are "without a doubt".

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

snipped-

thanks..that is all well and good but what does her family say?
Could her father not see into the van when he found it? I am assuming he did not actually enter it...

Also the husband was/is in the home, and has he not noticed what, if anything is missing? He would be the primary one to note.


As an aside- is it known if she DID indeed even make it to the mall that day?? Is she or her van captured on any video cameras on the route she supposedly would take or the stores she supposedly was going to?
0r is that some 'evidence' too?
And LE never said if they checked the van for prints?? Like for some unknown?

All forensics are still in the testing stages and has not been released to the husband as to any results, if completed, as yet. Again..probably will not release those results as many investigations do not want info leaked. As in all cases I am sure luminol and fingerprinting have been done as well as DNA testing on anything that may have seemed like it could be a spot of something, etc. All routine. Nobody knows if she indeed made it to the mall. That would certainly help to know that information. Nor does anyone know exactly when the van was truly left in that location. Only by what a witness stated as to how long she believed it was there.

 

[nursebeeme]

What is the difference between all these searches and adult missing?
Urgency.
.....
I can tell you that it is rare that a police department has ever formed a search party and go out and start IMMEDIATE URGENT searches the same as the above examples. Why? Because the stigma that an adult "has the right to go missing" still exists.

respectfully snipped for space.

I have to disagree there... I have seen plenty of missing adult cases that have immediate and urgent responses.

:twocents:

 

[fringles]

With what you said...here is a thought: If you were in a restaurant and a woman sat next to you eating a sandwich, looked like Jennifer, and she was wearing a dress...it may give you some insight that possibly the person is not Jennifer after all. It would also give you more courage to perhaps chat with the person and bring up the fact that you had to "look twice" as "I have to tell you, has anyone mentioned how much you look like the missing woman Jennifer Ramsaran?" ...naturally if the person starts to panic ...maybe it could in fact be Jennifer? Sandwich, dress and all. If not...well...you just shared more information about a loved missing woman the public is trying to find and you can even write down her website and pass along to the woman. If anything, curiosity will get to her and you just "shared" info to another. She will tell her best friend..."you'll never believe what happened to me at lunch today"...so that person will look. They are merely "habits" and "likes" to help bring more awareness.

This is a great point and made it make much more sense to me. Thank you!

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

If the husband does not want searches without proper SAR guidance, then why doesn't he contact SAR? I find that ridiculous.

There is no need for the husband to contact SAR. We've been told that Jenn's sister registered Jennifer with CUE. They are the ones who have experience in the searching arena...so perhaps they should be the ones that the public should contact to inquire when searches will be conducted. There is no reason for us to suggest to PD to have another professional SAR team come in that we use... when the family obviously is working, according to KR, with a team that already has the professional capabilities to do a search.

 

[nursebeeme]

There is no need for the husband to contact SAR. We've been told that Jenn's sister registered Jennifer with CUE. They are the ones who have experience in the searching arena...so perhaps they should be the ones that the public should contact to inquire when searches will be conducted. There is no reason for us to suggest to PD to have another professional SAR team come in that we use... when the family obviously is working, according to KR, with a team that already has the professional capabilities to do a search.

now they just need to do it (re: the search)

she has been missing so very long...:what:

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

respectfully snipped for space.

I have to disagree there... I have seen plenty of missing adult cases that have immediate and urgent responses.

:twocents:

In which they called the general public in to do massive ground search for a missing adult without a professional SAR team for guidance?
I'm very surprised.
The point of my response was due to the continued question as to "why can't we as the public just go in and get a group and do searches if we want".......that is what I have been continually responding to. The general public. Not the police and their teams of professionals...and not whether a PD makes a case of priority.

 

[nursebeeme]

In which they called the general public in to do massive ground search for a missing adult without a professional SAR team for guidance?
I'm very surprised.
The point of my response was due to the continued question as to "why can't we as the public just go in and get a group and do searches if we want".......that is what I have been continually responding to. The general public. Not the police and their teams of professionals...and not whether a PD makes a case of priority.

yes, searches by the general public with directions by the local PD.

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

now they just need to do it (re: the search)

she has been missing so very long...:what:

If I may ask...where are they supposed to do this search? Just curious. Because the majority of the PD we work with will not authorize even professional SAR teams to do any searches without a tip or lead or direction to search. Even professional SAR teams will not search without police approval and assistance. They will not come in and do a search without it. Remember, PD did conduct initial searches in the area the cell phone was found with dogs, on foot and helicopters.
The problem that I have...truly...with all these talks of searches is that it says the community has already decided that a body is to be found? That is not going to help the cause of wanting the public to share information to hang her missing posters in store front windows...because if a lot are convinced she is not alive...then she could literally be right next to someone and they are not going to pay any mind The community needs to look for a LIVING Jennifer and let the PD, the professional searchers, CUE, or whomever otherwise the PD chooses...to do the searching. Everyone else is free to search their own property...every inch of it. (possible contamination is narrowed down to one or two people as opposed to 15-30 people in a group search by nonprofessionals)

 

[nursebeeme]

If I may ask...where are they supposed to do this search? Just curious. Because the majority of the PD we work with will not authorize even professional SAR teams to do any searches without a tip or lead or direction to search. Even professional SAR teams will not search without police approval and assistance. They will not come in and do a search without it. Remember, PD did conduct initial searches in the area the cell phone was found with dogs, on foot and helicopters.
The problem that I have...truly...with all these talks of searches is that it says the community has already decided that a body is to be found? That is not going to help the cause of wanting the public to share information to hang her missing posters in store front windows...because if a lot are convinced she is not alive...then she could literally be right next to someone and they are not going to pay any mind The community needs to look for a LIVING Jennifer and let the PD, the professional searchers, CUE, or whomever otherwise the PD chooses...to do the searching. Everyone else is free to search their own property...every inch of it. (possible contamination is narrowed down to one or two people as opposed to 15-30 people in a group search by nonprofessionals)

the post that you just quoted was my response about CUE

My other post was about general citizen searches in general.

I would think that CUE would work with LE to search areas of interest when they become involved.

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

yes, searches by the general public with directions by the local PD.

Can you give me a few case examples? I would like to see what differences there could be between the cases you are speaking of and the majority of other missing adult cases. I have appts to attend so I will not be back until later this eve. Thank you.

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

the post that you just quoted was my response about CUE

My other post was about general citizen searches in general.

I would think that CUE would work with LE to search areas of interest when they become involved.

Yes. Absolutely. They would only work with LE...the same as any other professional search teams. I would be curious to know what they and other search teams feel about general public searches...with the purposes of recovering a body....not for looking for a living lost person.

 

[imamaze]

One case that came to my mind is Linnea Lomax, she was found by her mother very sad story. They had a search area set up very early on. LE worked with volunteers daily.

I must say I'm a little confused as to why LE wouldn't work with volunteers wanting to help find Jennifer. Volunteers help on many cases, I don't see why this case would be or should be any different.

Ima

 

[amberdawn723]

These are my ever-changing feelings reading this thread.........

:waitasec: ullhair: :banghead: :shakehead:
hdear::deadhorse:
:cry:
But mostly I do this: :sigh:

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

One case that came to my mind is Linnea Lomax, she was found by her mother very sad story. They had a search area set up very early on. LE worked with volunteers daily.

I must say I'm a little confused as to why LE wouldn't work with volunteers wanting to help find Jennifer. Volunteers help on many cases, I don't see why this case would be or should be any different.

Ima

Marianne Lomax made the horrific discovery while searching in the area of Glenn Hall Park with volunteers from the KlaasKids Foundation. (Again... with a professional team.)