Found Deceased NY - Jennifer Ramsaran, 36, Chenango County, 11 Dec 2012 - # 8

[LJKaust]

*sigh*

I was hoping to wake up this morning and see some kind of movement here, or even an arrest

Justice for Jennifer!

 

[Janeumayer]

I watched Dateline's "Secrets in the Snow" last night on my pc. I suggest watching it as it has some parallels to this case and also details how LE were able to catch their suspect. They had 3 POI's in this case.

Here's the link:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3032600/#49309996

 

[Bettylou4you]

Bettylou4you, imo, the cell phone, van, and remains were all disposed of in the locations where found, within a one hour window of opportunity on 12/11/2012. To be seen in her van or transport her remains would have been too risky..
JMO, and JMO only.. After following mostly predators/serial killer cases for over five years. One thing that I have learned is that they have obvious patterns, strategies, and leave signs and residue...

Imo, Jennifer Ramsaran's case has many indicators that the perp was only attempting to deflect, and emulating a stranger abduction by a sexual predator/serial killer to throw off investigators..

There are many indicators that the perp has many of the same personality traits of a predator/SK, but was lacking in their experience or skills, imo.

Obviously they have psychopathic tendencies due to the lack of empathy or remorse which is indicated by the body dumped like a bag of rubbish.. They would also be narcissistic due to their egotistic & grandiose thinking that they could pull off this ruse, imo..

A dead giveaway in the Jennifer Ramsaran tragedy is how the guilt was attempted to be shifted to the victim by the perp..imo..

Psychopaths have huge egos, are very controlling/manipulative of other's lives to satisfy thir own egos.

Serial Killers/Predators, leave few clues, whereas seriously disturbed perps emulating SKs tend to leave many clues in their wake..

I tend to agree that it all happened quickly in small area basically all along that short stretch of Rt 23. Or that the evidence was manipulated to make it look that way. The nagging things for me though are the fact that the body may not reflect what you typically may expect after so long, the fact that the cell phone was not broken and still had a charge when found, and the fact that the van was not noticed right away.

I expect the police have more information than we do, such as COD, time of death, estimated time outside, they can tell from the phone when it was last charged, potentially its location, also forensics from the van i.e., mud, fingerprints and blood. There may be dna on the phone, on JR or in the van.

But this could have been staged after the fact by someone who was more interested in establishing an alibi for that morning. After GR called to police, his insistence that she ran away probably meant they were not actively looking for her right away and the phone and the van could have been planted under cover of darkness when no one at the apartments would have noticed it. I'm still not sure about the body though, but i would bet the forensics on the 'blood' will tell if it was post mortem (if she was left in the van for a while) or if it was from a struggle.

Anyway, just musing over the timeline variables and hoping LE has a better handle on it than I do.

 

[nursebeeme]

thinking of Jennifer today

 

[terracotta]

'Thought that was the AFLAC Duck'....:moo:

:floorlaugh:

 

[Jilllian]

I'm not sure if this question has been asked before (forgive me if it has). Do they have to release COD to the general public and/or family during a murder investigation?

No, they don't.
And in many cases, it's wise NOT to do so.

 

[terracotta]

Jennifer's obituary took her from Highschool directly to Arizona.. no mention of her time where she went to SUNY New Paltz and skipping over the time in Jennifer's life where she met GR. Wouldn't where she met her husband be significant enough to mention in her life?

I find that significant. Were there issues during that time in her life, why she left the downstate area and went to Arizona. Did she leave NY and go to AZ without GR? Had her parents moved out there from NY to AZ after high school and that's the reason she ended up out there.

I also (thinking out loud) have always had a suspicion, that there is a reason why her parents were living "Right next door" - like perhaps they suspected something that wasn't all that great (kind of like an umbrella of protection) being so close (however only during the summer months).

Anyone have info or thoughts on these questions?

Bettylou4you, imo, the cell phone, van, and remains were all disposed of in the locations where found, within a one hour window of opportunity on 12/11/2012. To be seen in her van or transport her remains would have been too risky..
JMO, and JMO only.. After following mostly predators/serial killer cases for over five years. One thing that I have learned is that they have obvious patterns, strategies, and leave signs and residue...

Imo, Jennifer Ramsaran's case has many indicators that the perp was only attempting to deflect, and emulating a stranger abduction by a sexual predator/serial killer to throw off investigators..

There are many indicators that the perp has many of the same personality traits of a predator/SK, but was lacking in their experience or skills, imo.

Obviously they have psychopathic tendencies due to the lack of empathy or remorse which is indicated by the body dumped like a bag of rubbish.. They would also be narcissistic due to their egotistic & grandiose thinking that they could pull off this ruse, imo..

A dead giveaway in the Jennifer Ramsaran tragedy is how the guilt was attempted to be shifted to the victim by the perp..imo..

Psychopaths have huge egos, are very controlling/manipulative of other's lives to satisfy thir own egos.

Serial Killers/Predators, leave few clues, whereas seriously disturbed perps emulating SKs tend to leave many clues in their wake..

:rocker:

 

[Caring4Many]

A friend brought this to my attention-thought I'd share for those that haven't seen it yet. I believe this person not only was friends with Jennifer but wrote & performed the music as well. Such a great tribute for her children to have & keep. I hope there are more of these type of things provided for them do that when they miss her they have them to watch.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200714083281649&set=vb.1448622637&type=2&theater

 

[Abigail]

I still think the phone was tossed after Jen was left (assuming these events occurred on the same day). Since she was found farthest from the van, with the phone in between I think it happened on the way to drop off the van. I just don't see a nervous perp tossing evidence while transporting a victim.

I do think there is ambiguity as to when she was placed at the location where she was found and when the van was left in the parking lot as it was not noticed right away there by residents and the body was not noticed sooner and/or was not out in the elements for 2 months. The crime either happened in a very short time frame or was spread out with her body being moved and the van being left a day or so after she dissapeared. There are too many scenarios in my head to make a judgement. I hope LE has a better handle on the timeline than we do.

I keep thinking about the van, and why it wasn't noticed earlier. I noticed in the video that there weren't a lot of cars in the apartment parking lot during the daytime. So, maybe a lot of folks were off at work. I suppose that living in an apartment complex, you'd recognize vehicles that belonged to other residents; however, the thing with apartments is that people move in and out fairly regularly. And the residents would be having guests over. And some of the guests, for instance a boyfriend or girlfriend, might start spending the night, so then a new vehicle would start being there fairly regularly. So...how much would you pay attention to a new vehicle that was there? I was thinking that I might not especially notice it at first, but then after a couple days passed, and it stayed in the same location without being moved, that then I would notice it. It may have registered in my sub-consciousness to begin with, and then registered in my consciouness after a couple days, if you know what I mean.

The other thing is...why move the van? Especially once the word had gotten out that Jenn was missing...why take that risk? The only thing I can think of for someone moving the van, if that happened, is that the original location of the van was somehow incriminating.

I feel the same way about the body. Why move it? I noticed on the video that there was one spot where the drop off was especially steep, and if the body was right below there, it probably wouldn't have been noticed, especially since very few cars go down that section of Center Road anyway.

The phone could have been easily tossed on the way back to Norwich from Center Road -- the Moon Hill road bridge would have been passed twice on the route that ORR demonstrated. But probably more likely on the way back.

 

[Abigail]

In watching the video, it was interesting where the phone was as it was by a stream? Am I remembering correctly?

Maybe Jillian would know which side of the road the phone was found on?

I know much has been discussed on the phone......it would seem very very odd for the phone to not respond or show last known location for over 12 hours prior to it (finally) showing it's location at 8am the next day. Why would it not have responded up to that point?

Question....does the Find a phone app have a history to show searching attempts? I mean maybe there was something going on with towers or geography and since GR was in a different location that it responded...would that make a difference?

Good thoughts about phone app history. I don't know. But I do believe that GR was at his home (and the police were there) when it beeped, supposedly for the first time.

 

[Abigail]

Great question. As soon as I saw it, I texted my close friend who is an attorney in New York State. His response: "It's a gray area. Too long to explain over text."

He's currently sitting in court awaiting his case to be called so I'm not able to speak with him right now, but suffice it to say, doesn't look like it would be as easy for a potential divorce attorney to go to LE to advise what occured.

Eager to hear more of what he has to say. My understanding is that the communication between client and attorney is protected, but not the relationship. In other words, if I'm correct, an attorney can reveal that he was consulted by a certain person, but is restricted in revealing the nature of the consultation. I also think that once the client has died, there may be compelling reasons for the privilege to be revoked, as long as it doesn't damage the reputation of the client.

Also, would be interested in how confidentiality between priest and parishioner would apply.

 

[5CentsWorth]

A friend brought this to my attention-thought I'd share for those that haven't seen it yet. I believe this person not only was friends with Jennifer but wrote & performed the music as well. Such a great tribute for her children to have & keep. I hope there are more of these type of things provided for them do that when they miss her they have them to watch.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200714083281649&set=vb.1448622637&type=2&theater

Wow, that is so beautiful! What a special song and tribute!

 

[Abigail]

Bettylou4you, imo, the cell phone, van, and remains were all disposed of in the locations where found, within a one hour window of opportunity on 12/11/2012. To be seen in her van or transport her remains would have been too risky..
JMO, and JMO only.. After following mostly predators/serial killer cases for over five years. One thing that I have learned is that they have obvious patterns, strategies, and leave signs and residue...

Imo, Jennifer Ramsaran's case has many indicators that the perp was only attempting to deflect, and emulating a stranger abduction by a sexual predator/serial killer to throw off investigators..

There are many indicators that the perp has many of the same personality traits of a predator/SK, but was lacking in their experience or skills, imo.

Obviously they have psychopathic tendencies due to the lack of empathy or remorse which is indicated by the body dumped like a bag of rubbish.. They would also be narcissistic due to their egotistic & grandiose thinking that they could pull off this ruse, imo..

A dead giveaway in the Jennifer Ramsaran tragedy is how the guilt was attempted to be shifted to the victim by the perp..imo..

Psychopaths have huge egos, are very controlling/manipulative of other's lives to satisfy thir own egos.

Serial Killers/Predators, leave few clues, whereas seriously disturbed perps emulating SKs tend to leave many clues in their wake..

I'm wondering if seriously disturbed perps emulating SKs can evolve into SKs. Drew Peterson comes to mind....

 

[Jilllian]

I keep thinking about the van, and why it wasn't noticed earlier. I noticed in the video that there weren't a lot of cars in the apartment parking lot during the daytime. So, maybe a lot of folks were off at work. I suppose that living in an apartment complex, you'd recognize vehicles that belonged to other residents; however, the thing with apartments is that people move in and out fairly regularly. And the residents would be having guests over. And some of the guests, for instance a boyfriend or girlfriend, might start spending the night, so then a new vehicle would start being there fairly regularly. So...how much would you pay attention to a new vehicle that was there? I was thinking that I might not especially notice it at first, but then after a couple days passed, and it stayed in the same location without being moved, that then I would notice it. It may have registered in my sub-consciousness to begin with, and then registered in my consciouness after a couple days, if you know what I mean.

The other thing is...why move the van? Especially once the word had gotten out that Jenn was missing...why take that risk? The only thing I can think of for someone moving the van, if that happened, is that the original location of the van was somehow incriminating.

I feel the same way about the body. Why move it? I noticed on the video that there was one spot where the drop off was especially steep, and if the body was right below there, it probably wouldn't have been noticed, especially since very few cars go down that section of Center Road anyway.

The phone could have been easily tossed on the way back to Norwich from Center Road -- the Moon Hill road bridge would have been passed twice on the route that ORR demonstrated. But probably more likely on the way back.

many of those residents don't work because they're elderly. and many have lived there for decades. some didn't notice the van because of the way their furniture is set up (ie. to face away from the window so they don't see headlights that shine in).

where JR was found isn't too steep. but with snowbanks on the side of the road, it would make sense why people driving by wouldn't have seen her.

i think she was there the whole time.

a body can't be moved easily once it's frozen.

 

[Abigail]

Imo, prolly the best metaphor that I have ever heard for circumstantial evidence is;

'If you went to bed last night & there was no snow on the ground, yet woke up with snow on the ground.. It would be reasonable to conclude that it snowed last night..

The circumstantial evidence in the Jennifer Ramsaran case is enormous, imo..

Oh, but some random stranger could have come to your house and thrown all that snow on the ground-- don't you know?

 

[dansmom]

many of those residents don't work because they're elderly. and many have lived there for decades. some didn't notice the van because of the way their furniture is set up (ie. to face away from the window so they don't see headlights that shine in).

where JR was found isn't too steep. but with snowbanks on the side of the road, it would make sense why people driving by wouldn't have seen her.

i think she was there the whole time.

a body can't be moved easily once it's frozen.

I agree with the last statement.

Jillian, do you have aguess on cod?

 

[Sparky]

Find my IPhone App just had a update on Dec 11, 2012 to include driving directions.


'Find My iPhone' App Updated With Driving Directions to Device Location
Tuesday December 11, 2012 11:08 am PST by Jordan Golson
Apple has updated its Find My iPhone iOS app with the ability to display driving directions to the lost device's location.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/12/11...d-with-driving-directions-to-device-location/

I also checked the App Store and the date for update was 12/11/12

 

[Abigail]

many of those residents don't work because they're elderly. and many have lived there for decades. some didn't notice the van because of the way their furniture is set up (ie. to face away from the window so they don't see headlights that shine in).


where JR was found isn't too steep. but with snowbanks on the side of the road, it would make sense why people driving by wouldn't have seen her.

i think she was there the whole time.

a body can't be moved easily once it's frozen.

If the van were left in the parking lot in broad daylight, there wouldn't have been any headlights shining in -- well, the lights may have been on if it were raining, but you wouldn't really notice them during the daytime. That brings something else up -- if it were raining, most people would be inside.

I don't think there WERE snowbanks on the side of the road at the time she was left, if she were left there on Dec. 11. Definitely one week later, but what about that week? Down in the valley, the weather was in the low 50's and raining. I'm just assuming that the rain would have melted away any snow that was there (Amanda -- could you check the Farmers Almanac about snow or precip BEFORE December 11? Remembering that rain in the valley could be snow up on that hill).

No, it's hard to move a body once frozen, plus there's more likelihood of incriminating evidence being left in the vehicle transporting the body. (I wonder if they used cadaver dogs to check the van when it was found? I heard once that they can sniff a body that's only been dead a short time)

 

[yupikgirl]

Meanwhile on Facebook GR is back liking and replying to posts. It was quiet for a few days. I wonder if he took a break at all. I can obviously only see what he posts on others pages if their page is public.

OT but I have spent soo much time looking through pages of people he posts on. I feel like I know these people LOL

 

[yupikgirl]

Forgot to say..Jillian can you add the video to the HFJR page? It has a share button so I think he wouldn't mind? Her sister also posted it in her page. I'm not sure if he should be asked first or not? It's just a lovely video and should be shared :tears: