NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

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First, I saw that you’re a Marine. Thank you for your service. My dad was as well.

When I originally saw a condensed shortened video, I thought ok, justified. But then when I saw the longer one, it was disturbing. It went on for so long and the victim wasn’t fighting back. He was barely moving, yet the former Marine kept him in a chokehold. Because he didn’t mean to kill him doesn’t mean he can’t be charged with manslaughter.
Towards the end of the extended video it sounds like a guy off camera questioned the chokehold and one of the two guys who were assisting the marine in keeping Neely held down responds with something along the lines of “he (marine) is not squeezing anymore”. They let Neely go soon after that and he does appear to move before the video cuts out.

I see a lot of comments here stating the marine kept Neely in a chokehold for 12-15 minutes… was this 100% confirmed?
 
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Towards the end of the extended video it sounds like a guy off camera questioned the chokehold and one of the two guys who were assisting the marine in keeping Neely held down responds with something along the lines of “he (marine) is not squeezing anymore”. They let Neely go soon after that and he does appear to move before the video cuts out.

I see a lot of comments here stating the marine kept Neely in a chokehold for 12 minutes… was this 100% confirmed?

I believe I saw it confirmed as just under 15 minutes but cannot remember where. I will try to look at my history to find it
 
What was he doing then? Once again….15 minutes. That’s a LONG time. You can walk a mile in 15 minutes. As a soldier you should know what is capable of happening in 15 minutes. “Brain death” can start at 1 minute. The “Sleeper” at 30 seconds. This young man held on far longer than was necessary. Especially since the man wasn’t armed or striking out at anyone. Just being loud. We need to be better as humans and less judgmental.

I need more on this time thing. Some witnesses say 3 minutes, others say 15 minutes (which is a long, long time - but for some people, something horrific seems to last longer than the watch says it does). We do experiments in basic forensic labs on this topic (time estimation, even by university students being graded on it, are not good - subject being observed does matter).

If it was really 15 minutes, I do wonder why no one else offered to help in this situation. I would have to and my husband would want to - if the guy were a threat and pinned down by his limbs (rather than his throat), things would not have ended this way - but it would probably take an additional 2-3 people. Of course, I've never been on public transport where something like this happened (only at rock concerts or inside penal institutions). But I have been in schools and watched teachers manage to restrain someone the size of the victim. I would be VERY upset if someone was in a choke hold for more than 1 minute.

I couldn't agree more about "doing better" but it seems Americans (despite crime rates no higher than in the 1920's and 1930's, really) are terrified of each other.

If it was really 15 minutes, did anyone not call 911 after 2-3 minutes??? I'd have been dialing 911 to create a record at minute 1. Anytime I see two people physically engaging (years of working at schools), I dial 911. Do subways not have signs about what to do? Why aren't there emergency phones in the cars, for even faster response? Not a single security person on the train to be called in?

There's something really wrong with the way we form a society, if we don't have basic safety measures on public transport.

IMO.
 
Towards the end of the extended video it sounds like a guy off camera questioned the chokehold and one of the two guys who were assisting the marine in keeping Neely held down responds with something along the lines of “he (marine) is not squeezing anymore”. They let Neely go soon after that and he does appear to move before the video cuts out.

I see a lot of comments here stating the marine kept Neely in a chokehold for 12 minutes… was this 100% confirmed?
The movement at the end is agonal breathing.

Do marines learn CPR? Or just chokeholds?
 
I need more on this time thing. Some witnesses say 3 minutes, others say 15 minutes (which is a long, long time - but for some people, something horrific seems to last longer than the watch says it does). We do experiments in basic forensic labs on this topic (time estimation, even by university students being graded on it, are not good - subject being observed does matter).

If it was really 15 minutes, I do wonder why no one else offered to help in this situation. I would have to and my husband would want to - if the guy were a threat and pinned down by his limbs (rather than his throat), things would not have ended this way - but it would probably take an additional 2-3 people. Of course, I've never been on public transport where something like this happened (only at rock concerts or inside penal institutions). But I have been in schools and watched teachers manage to restrain someone the size of the victim. I would be VERY upset if someone was in a choke hold for more than 1 minute.

I couldn't agree more about "doing better" but it seems Americans (despite crime rates no higher than in the 1920's and 1930's, really) are terrified of each other.

If it was really 15 minutes, did anyone not call 911 after 2-3 minutes??? I'd have been dialing 911 to create a record at minute 1. Anytime I see two people physically engaging (years of working at schools), I dial 911. Do subways not have signs about what to do? Why aren't there emergency phones in the cars, for even faster response? Not a single security person on the train to be called in?

There's something really wrong with the way we form a society, if we don't have basic safety measures on public transport.

IMO.
Do you have a source for this "3 minutes" claim?
I've only seen 15 minutes in every report available.

ETA - I believe the misconception comes from the fact that the video we've seen is 3 minutes. Witness statements including the man who took the video say 15.
 
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I need more on this time thing. Some witnesses say 3 minutes, others say 15 minutes (which is a long, long time - but for some people, something horrific seems to last longer than the watch says it does). We do experiments in basic forensic labs on this topic (time estimation, even by university students being graded on it, are not good - subject being observed does matter).

If it was really 15 minutes, I do wonder why no one else offered to help in this situation. I would have to and my husband would want to - if the guy were a threat and pinned down by his limbs (rather than his throat), things would not have ended this way - but it would probably take an additional 2-3 people. Of course, I've never been on public transport where something like this happened (only at rock concerts or inside penal institutions). But I have been in schools and watched teachers manage to restrain someone the size of the victim. I would be VERY upset if someone was in a choke hold for more than 1 minute.

I couldn't agree more about "doing better" but it seems Americans (despite crime rates no higher than in the 1920's and 1930's, really) are terrified of each other.

If it was really 15 minutes, did anyone not call 911 after 2-3 minutes??? I'd have been dialing 911 to create a record at minute 1. Anytime I see two people physically engaging (years of working at schools), I dial 911. Do subways not have signs about what to do? Why aren't there emergency phones in the cars, for even faster response? Not a single security person on the train to be called in?

There's something really wrong with the way we form a society, if we don't have basic safety measures on public transport.

IMO.
Yes, I too would like some clarification on the time thing because to me it would make more sense if 15 minutes was how long the altercation lasted total - including the chokehold - rather than just the chokehold. That would also track with the F train stops. Granted I am no expert but I would think someone in a chokehold for 15 whole minutes would’ve died a lot sooner. / jmo
 
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‘It’s a failure of the system’: before Jordan Neely was killed, he was discarded

The young New Yorker, who lived with severe mental illness, was known to hospitals, police and social services. Why did the city fail him?


 
I sure would not want my nose and orbital bone broken because some one was having a psychotic break in public, IMO. Do you know how long that might take to heal if you are 67 and if you would ever have the same face?
No work, no driving, maybe medical bills?

I really want to hear what the other train passengers have to say.

<snipped for focus>

This is one witness account, from 66-year old female witness who took the the threats seriously, per her statement to the media.


A 66-year-old female witness to the incident spoke anonymously to The New York Post last night on the eve of Penny's arraignment to support him.

She said there are more videos of the altercation that led up to the chokehold that she believes will absolve Penny of wrongdoing.

'So I believe that those videos are going to come forward, maybe people will do it anonymously.

'I hope he has a great lawyer, and I’m praying for him. And I pray that he gets treated fairly, I really do.

'Because after all of this ensued I went back and made sure that I said, "thank you" to him.'

She said Neely brought on the chokehold by threatening the entire train and many of them took the threats seriously.

'He said, "I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail" because he would kill people on the train.

'He said ‘I would kill a motherf***er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.'

'This gentleman, Mr. Penny, did not stand up. Did not engage with the gentleman. He said not a word. It was all Mr. Neely that was… threatening the passengers. If he did not get what he wants,' she said.

Eventually, Penny stood up and pulled him to the ground. Two other men helped subdue him.

Neither of them have been charged.



 
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Do you have a source for this "3 minutes" claim?
I've only seen 15 minutes in every report available.

I read it in an article linked here - will try to find it.

There are reports that decline to state how many minutes entirely. Here's one that says "several" minutes:

What I can piece together is that no source has more than a single eyewitness stating 15 minutes:


(A source said...)

That gets repeated over and over.

Washington Post says "minutes" but declines to say how many:


Other articles are even more vague.

Do you have a source that uses more than one witness? (I'll keep looking for the three minute one).

ABC news says "several" minutes. What is generally agreed is that it was until Neely, the victim, stopped moving. If the murderer took 15 minutes to make him stop moving, well, that means it was less than 15 minutes OR the chokehold wasn't fierce. Because no one keeps moving for 15 minutes if their windpipe is compressed by a chokehold. IMO.

There is a video of course, so we may eventually know - but the one witness, whom I will not name here, is the same one that says 15 minutes (but does not venture an opinion as to when Neely stopped moving):


A person without air will not last 15 minutes and still be moving.

Is my point. There are disparities in the accounts and only one witness (who says they have a video) saying 15 minutes. The video will be very important (for many reasons).

IMO.
 
I read it in an article linked here - will try to find it.

There are reports that decline to state how many minutes entirely. Here's one that says "several" minutes:

What I can piece together is that no source has more than a single eyewitness stating 15 minutes:


(A source said...)

That gets repeated over and over.

Washington Post says "minutes" but declines to say how many:


Other articles are even more vague.

Do you have a source that uses more than one witness? (I'll keep looking for the three minute one).

ABC news says "several" minutes. What is generally agreed is that it was until Neely, the victim, stopped moving. If the murderer took 15 minutes to make him stop moving, well, that means it was less than 15 minutes OR the chokehold wasn't fierce. Because no one keeps moving for 15 minutes if their windpipe is compressed by a chokehold. IMO.

There is a video of course, so we may eventually know - but the one witness, whom I will not name here, is the same one that says 15 minutes (but does not venture an opinion as to when Neely stopped moving):


A person without air will not last 15 minutes and still be moving.

Is my point. There are disparities in the accounts and only one witness (who says they have a video) saying 15 minutes. The video will be very important (for many reasons).

IMO.
I think the confusion is because the exact number of minutes was widely reported in MSM to be 15 minutes but the actual video is only for 3.5 minutes approximately.
 
I read it in an article linked here - will try to find it.

There are reports that decline to state how many minutes entirely. Here's one that says "several" minutes:

What I can piece together is that no source has more than a single eyewitness stating 15 minutes:


(A source said...)

That gets repeated over and over.

Washington Post says "minutes" but declines to say how many:


Other articles are even more vague.

Do you have a source that uses more than one witness? (I'll keep looking for the three minute one).

ABC news says "several" minutes. What is generally agreed is that it was until Neely, the victim, stopped moving. If the murderer took 15 minutes to make him stop moving, well, that means it was less than 15 minutes OR the chokehold wasn't fierce. Because no one keeps moving for 15 minutes if their windpipe is compressed by a chokehold. IMO.

There is a video of course, so we may eventually know - but the one witness, whom I will not name here, is the same one that says 15 minutes (but does not venture an opinion as to when Neely stopped moving):


A person without air will not last 15 minutes and still be moving.

Is my point. There are disparities in the accounts and only one witness (who says they have a video) saying 15 minutes. The video will be very important (for many reasons).

IMO.
Those links are both paywalled, but I'm guessing what you are referring to is that they describe what is seen in the available video for "minutes", not witness statements.
 
“Over the next several seconds, Penny and the other man who had been helping him attempt to put Neely in the recovery position.

“In first aid, the recovery position (also called semi-prone) is one of a series of variations on a lateral recumbent or three-quarters prone position of the body, often used for unconscious but breathing casualties.”
Did you watch the video? Daniel Penny did nothing... Penny walked around Neely's body to pick up his hat from under the seat.

Others on the scene did something, though it isn't at all a recovery position. I'd recommend looking up what a recovery position is.
 
Training, and possibly previous personal experience?

I am extensively trained in body language, non verbal communication and more in my line of work. I have never heard of training to gauge someone's propensity for violence unless maybe some kind of specialty LE training. I just do not really see how it is possible to train for it. In the Marines I would think they are trained that when they are on a mission that any unknown person on the other side of them is most likely dangerous so the field is skewed in terms of how to handle unknown people, you would need to I would think be prepared that any of them could be put your life in danger. And to some degree maybe personal experience. The more one interacts and works with a certain segment of the population the more you learn about them and how they respond in certain environments and under different stressors. I have extensive experience in working with the severely mentally ill and those with addiction. I have average level experience working with the homeless, most of whom struggle with severe mental health issues and/or addiction. When I mean average level experience I mean I have spent hours alone with them. Thankfully I have yet to fear for my life with any of them. Some have acted quite erratically and spewed all kinds of nonsense and some even made threats to a degree but I have not had one yet try to physically attack me even while in the field. Their behaviors might scare people more who do not have experience with them. But even someone with lots of experience with the homeless population does not truly know an individual's propensity for violence against others unless they know they have a history of it. This cannot be garnered by just looking in someone's eyes and watching their body language. Especially when dealing with a population with a long trauma history. Trauma responses in someone who is scared can look scary, but most are not a danger to others they are only a danger to themselves. Without again knowing someone's history I would have a hard time telling you which clients I see being a physical danger to others. And if I felt or someone else working in my field felt like a person were becoming a danger no one I know would think of using a chokehold to keep the person safe or to keep others safe from them unless they were actively attacking someone and had no other means of restraining them. The first step of deescalation that I have learned from working with all of the above populations when they are starting to spiral out is to take a minute to listen to their rants and do a form of focused listening where you repeat back what they are angry about or what their grievances are so they know they are being heard. So they do not feel so alone and like nobody cares. Of course I am sure most people out in public are not going to want to do that. If deescalation is not working or if someone wishes to not engage the easiest thing to do is to ignore them or move away from them. Worst case scenario if the person starts trying to attack someone would be to hold them back and somehow restrain them. But just screaming threats of wanting to go back to jail or something similar does not call for a chokehold. Even if someone starts to attack that does not call for a chokehold. What calls for a chokehold is if this person is directly attacking you and you fear for your life. So if this person actively attacked someone and you jump in to restrain him and then he starts to attack you and put you in direct danger then you pull out something like a chokehold as a last resort if you feel you have no other options. And as soon as the person stops resisting you put them in the recovery position. Of course if they start attacking again, you go back to the chokehold or whatever. I just do not see how this Marine ever had his personal life in danger and I have not seen or heard evidence that Neely was about to attack someone or had already attacked someone and needed to be physically handled. That he has physically and brutally attacked people in the past is abhorrent and he needed and deserved serious time if he continued to do that. But no one on that Subway knew his past or if they did I have not heard that they shared it with the man who put him in the chokehold and took his life. If there was a BOLO out on Neely for physical assault and the Marine recognized him and Neely ended up threatening the Marine or others on the subway then I could see the Marine taking immediate action and restraining Neely because he knew this person had a history of and was capable of assault and there became an immediate need to protect himself or others. And then if a struggle ensued I could see the Marine possibly doing a chokehold to gain the upper hand until Neely stopped resisting and then again put him in the recovery position. But Neely for all the Marine knew may have never put hands on someone ever in the past.
 
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The Manhattan district attorney, Alvin L. Bragg, said in a statement that the arrest of Mr. Penny, 24, a Marine veteran, had come after many witness interviews, a review of photos and video and discussions with the medical examiner’s office, which had ruled Mr. Neely’s death a homicide.

“Jordan Neely should still be alive today, and my thoughts continue to be with his family and loved ones as they mourn his loss,” Mr. Bragg said.

Mr. Penny approached Mr. Neely from the back, “placed him in a chokehold, taking him down to the ground” and held him “for several minutes” until the train arrived at the next station, Mr. Steinglass said. He emphasized that Mr. Penny had continued to choke Mr. Neely even after he stopped moving. The chokehold was captured in a four-minute video.

In Mr. Penny’s case, the charge of second-degree manslaughter, also known as reckless homicide, will require prosecutors to prove that he caused Mr. Neely’s death and did so recklessly, meaning that he knew that the chokehold could kill.





Chokehold training for marines
 
<snipped for focus>

This is one witness account, from 66-year old female witness who took the the threats seriously, per her statement to the media.


A 66-year-old female witness to the incident spoke anonymously to The New York Post last night on the eve of Penny's arraignment to support him.

She said there are more videos of the altercation that led up to the chokehold that she believes will absolve Penny of wrongdoing.

'So I believe that those videos are going to come forward, maybe people will do it anonymously.

'I hope he has a great lawyer, and I’m praying for him. And I pray that he gets treated fairly, I really do.

'Because after all of this ensued I went back and made sure that I said, "thank you" to him.'

She said Neely brought on the chokehold by threatening the entire train and many of them took the threats seriously.

'He said, "I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail" because he would kill people on the train.

'He said ‘I would kill a motherf***er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.'

'This gentleman, Mr. Penny, did not stand up. Did not engage with the gentleman. He said not a word. It was all Mr. Neely that was… threatening the passengers. If he did not get what he wants,' she said.

Eventually, Penny stood up and pulled him to the ground. Two other men helped subdue him.

Neither of them have been charged.



An anonymous source to the NY Post I would take that with a big grain of salt.
 
Police sources told ABC News that Penny was not specifically being threatened by Neely when he intervened and that Neely had not become violent and had not been threatening anyone in particular.

Video showed Penny putting Neely in a chokehold on May 1 following outbursts from Neely on an F train. Several witnesses observed Neely making threats, Steinglass told the judge. Penny held Neely for several minutes, and at some point Neely stopped moving, but Penny continued to hold him for a period of time, Steinglass said.

This is the point, he continued the choke hold after Neely stopped moving

 
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