GUILTY NY - Leiby Kletzky, 8, Brooklyn, 11 July 2011 - #2

[Chewy]

We don't need laws for things like this. And it's no guarantee anyway. A child should be educated by his or her parents about which places are safe havens BEFORE they allow them to walk alone in the street. In Brooklyn there are some places of isolation but usually there is a shop or deli that if you are friendly with the owner or workers this can be a safe haven.

My DH pointed out that if he got lost one block away from his destination that he wasn't aware enough of his neighborhood to walk around alone. And it's so very sad but it's true. Although you would not expect something like this to happen, there are other things that could go wrong. The mother should have followed her son on the first few tries and had him meet up in a specific location. This way she could observe his behaviors as he walked alone, ex "does he look both ways" "does he interact with strangers"

I've done this with my own son a few times and realized that he stops to put the lids back on garbage cans on the way to school. Seemed to me to be a perfect set up for a pedophile, go ahead of him and pull the lids off then approach him when he's fixing them to tell him what a great kid he is for helping the neighborhood out.

But as I said before, the culture in this neighborhood has always been to led little children roam unattended. So I'm sure she was swayed by that.


Creepier and creepier, the first apartment I rented myself when I first moved to NYC was at 479 E9th St. in Kensington Brooklyn. <modsnip> It's a hideous neighborhood, nothing at all like Borough Park.

 

[BethInAK]

My DH pointed out that if he got lost one block away from his destination that he wasn't aware enough of his neighborhood to walk around alone. And it's so very sad but it's true. Although you would not expect something like this to happen, there are other things that could go wrong. The mother should have followed her son on the first few tries and had him meet up in a specific location. This way she could observe his behaviors as he walked alone, ex "does he look both ways" "does he interact with strangers".

While I completely agree from a parents perspective, I also know that Borough Park was a closed, close community. They trusted their neighbors - other orthodox jewish people - to take care of their child. to me, it sounds crazy: I'd never let my 8 year old run alone through the streets of NYC, but its not really NYC. They have their own vigilante police force, the Shomrim (means guard) for goodness sake.

I'm reminded that my father was molested by a high ranking member of his orthodox synagogue as a child. Even now (as an adult psychologist) he'd tell you that if he told, no one would have believed him, because they believed that their own wouldn't ever do such a thing.

 

[Crosby87]

Levy likely had an hour lunch. I don't believe he could have murdered and dismembered him during a lunch hour and cleaned up well enough to return to work Tuesday afternoon.

He was either killed Monday evening or Tuesday evening. In one of the earlier articles it was reported LA was shirtless and the door to his third floor attic apartment ajar when police arrived. I seem to recall something about him saying he took a shower. I'd have to find the article again - but it led me to believe he was probably dismembered Tuesday evening. It is possible the murder and dismemberment did not take place on the same day.

Will post the article with the comment about the shower if I can find it.

Thank you.

If LA murdered Leiby Monday, I am certain his coworkers would have noticed the scratches and reported this information to the police so MO is LA worked a full day and committed the murder Tuesday evening. All the NYPD have to do to is contact his employer.

Most of the uniforms people who work in retail stores wear have short sleeves. The shirt LA was wearing in Court has short sleeves.

 

[Crosby87]

Indictment could come Tues. in Leiby Kletzky murder

"Aron's lawyers indicated on Monday that an insanity defense is becoming more and more of a possibility.
Aron is undergoing an mental health evaluation at Bellevue Hospital, and his lawyers say their client has difficulty answering direct questions.
"One thing he did reiterate to myself and [defense attorney] Pierre [Bazile] is that he is hearing voices," defense attorney Gerard Marrone said. "he's been hearing voices for quite some time.""
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_york&id=8258277

I'm getting a feeling in the pit of my stomach that it's going to be a disappointing day.
IMO and from reading interviews of his ex's and the community, he is just a strange kinda disturbed, creepy man. Schizophrenia would have been in full force at his age and the signs would have been very evident.
He held down a job, drove a car, went to weddings, synagogue and interacted. I think this is all a DT ploy to put a notch in their belt and once again a child murderer will not get the punishment they deeserve.
Very sad.

Aron’s mother has been deceased for 8 years and Levi's sister Sarah died in 2009. Levi’s ex-wife, Debbie Kivel said that the sister’s death was caused after she mixed medications and then fell and hit her head.

Levi's sister was taking prescribed medication before she died but it doesn't say what she was diagnosed with.

 

[Crosby87]

Here's what I think happened. When Leiby came up to LA he knew right away he was going to kill him and hurt him. So he asked God to intervene. He went into the dentist but did not pay the bill. He did not take Leiby with him. Why not? I think he went in to pay and thought, "please go away" and when he came out he saw he was still there and decided to take him.

Also just because someone doesn't notice scratches or cuts on your hands doesn't mean they were weren't there. It's not like he'd be slashed as if with a razor by a 9 year olds hands.

.

The police determined Leiby fought for his life so a fierce battle may have ensued. Police noticed the wounds on LA immediately so I imagine the stratches were quite obvious.

LA's wrists and arms might have swelled and the scratch marks might have left red welts on his hands and wrists. His coworkers know for sure if those marks were there on Tuesday.

LA claimed "A boy approached me on where the Judaica book store was. He was still there when went out from the dentist&#8217;s office. He asked me for a ride to the Judaica book store. While on the way he changed his mind and wasn&#8217;t sure where he wanted to go."

Did a relative of Leiby's work at the Judaca bookstore?

 

[Cubby]

Thank you.

If LA murdered Leiby Monday, I am certain his coworkers would have noticed the scratches and reported this information to the police so MO is LA worked a full day and committed the murder Tuesday evening. All the NYPD have to do to is contact his employer.

Most of the uniforms people who work in retail stores wear have short sleeves. The shirt LA was wearing in Court has short sleeves.

\

It's been a long time since I've been in a small private owned hardware store. The big box Menards type places usually have uniforms with an apron, but the last time I went to a small Ace Hardware I don't recall the employees wearing uniforms.

I also noticed in many of the photo's of LA he appeared to be wearing a long sleeved collared shirt with his sleeves rolled up to just below the elbows. Makes me wonder if he wore his shirt the same way Tuesday.

All around this is a terrible tragedy and very sad case.

I do find myself wondering, if LA did have hallucinations and was hearing things how he hid that from two wives and everyone he came in contact with.

jmo

 

[Crosby87]

I think it's possible that LA put Leiby in the trunk while he went to the wedding (not leaving him in the car with "the windows rolled down" as he confessed), and THAT'S why nobody seen him at the Wedding.

Maybe poor Leiby suffocated in the trunk, and the dismemberment was indeed done the next day? If that is what happened, then, there would likely be evidence of that in the trunk, I guess.

LE said that LA had dumped the red suitcase shortly before they got there. Surely the dismemberment was done that Tuesday night if that is the case.

If Leiby suffocated in the trunk LA wouldn't have had any scratch marks on his wrists and hands.

 

[Cubby]

.


LA claimed "A boy approached me on where the Judaica book store was. He was still there when went out from the dentist’s office. He asked me for a ride to the Judaica book store. While on the way he changed his mind and wasn’t sure where he wanted to go."

Did a relative of Leiby's work at the Judaca bookstore?

Respectfully snipped. It did come out in one of the MSM articles Leiby was supposed to meet his family at a book store. Leading us to believe Leiby asked for directions to the book store where he was to meet his parents.

Sorry I can't find a link right now, posting and catching up with a sick kiddo who is calling mommmmm. I did post it upthread somewhere. I think in this one rather than thread 1.

hth

 

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

Does anyone know if Levi would have ever sought help (either for himself or for a family member) from a Jewish Community Council? Specifically this one: http://www.canarsiejcc.org (or is there one closer to his home?)

I ask because there is another little boy missing in Brooklyn, who lives less than a block away from this center.

NY NY - Patrick Alford, 7-year-old "runaway", Brooklyn, 22 Jan 2010 - #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Chewy]

While I completely agree from a parents perspective, I also know that Borough Park was a closed, close community. They trusted their neighbors - other orthodox jewish people - to take care of their child. to me, it sounds crazy: I'd never let my 8 year old run alone through the streets of NYC, but its not really NYC. They have their own vigilante police force, the Shomrim (means guard) for goodness sake.

I'm reminded that my father was molested by a high ranking member of his orthodox synagogue as a child. Even now (as an adult psychologist) he'd tell you that if he told, no one would have believed him, because they believed that their own wouldn't ever do such a thing.

I have to note, it is NOT by any stretch of the idea a "closed" community. That's why I posted pages back that it blows my mind every time I go through it that they allow their children to run in the streets the way they do. Not Five blocks from where the Judaica bookstore is, there is a Russian mafia type bar, three blocks the other way and you are in no mans land with factories etc. The elevated subway stops a few blocks up. There is a large Hispanic community several blocks down. There are transients in the neighborhood all the time.

The main street in the area he lived in was 13th Ave, which is why they asked him to meet at the Judaica bookstore, it would be like telling your kid to meet you at Barnes and Noble, it's very visible and easy to landmark.



http://maps.google.com/maps?rlz=1C1...code_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBgQ8gEwAA


also the Jewish Cultural Center in Starett City is nowhere near Borough Park. Neighborhood's in NYC are really small and people tend to stay within a few blocks of each other.

 

[SheWhoMustNotBeNamed]

I know it's nowhere near Borough Park. It's 7 miles away. That's not what I asked. I was merely curious if someone was seeking the kind of services they provide (end of life issues, hunger help, safety), would this be the center he would go to, or is there a closer one? But it appears upon looking closer, I found there is something similar in/near Borough Park. Forget I asked.

 

[Crosby87]

Indictment Against Levi Aron In Death Of Leiby Kletzky May Be Issued Wednesday
<snipped>

Prosecutors tell CBS 2 they have received the report by the medical examiner which details Leiby Kletzky&#8217;s cause &#8211; and perhaps even time &#8211; of death. With that information, today is most likely the day Levi Aron will have a formal murder indictment filed against him in state supreme court.

What's still unclear is what else prosecutors have in their arsenal.

At Aron&#8217;s house in Kensington, Brooklyn where the brutal murder and butchering allegedly occurred, investigators have been removing evidence, including a cat that was brought out on Tuesday afternoon

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/07...ath-of-leiby-kletzky-may-be-issued-wednesday/

 

[TopTop]

I was thinking...I live in a city with a Hassidic Jewish neighbourhood. A couple of the things that strike me when I am in that part of town (apart from the dress) are 1) the children are always walking around all over the place by themselves, even across busy streets and 2) the residents seem to always be outside. I don't think that most of the women work and most of them have quite a few children which results in many, many people walking and sitting on their front porches at all times of the day.

Wouldn't one of LA's neighbours have seen him going into his house with a child?

 

[SurfieTX]

Indictment Against Levi Aron In Death Of Leiby Kletzky May Be Issued Wednesday
<snipped>

Prosecutors tell CBS 2 they have received the report by the medical examiner which details Leiby Kletzky’s cause – and perhaps even time – of death. With that information, today is most likely the day Levi Aron will have a formal murder indictment filed against him in state supreme court.

What's still unclear is what else prosecutors have in their arsenal.

At Aron’s house in Kensington, Brooklyn where the brutal murder and butchering allegedly occurred, investigators have been removing evidence, including a cat that was brought out on Tuesday afternoon

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/07...ath-of-leiby-kletzky-may-be-issued-wednesday/

BBM: A cat? Hopefully, that is an alive cat? For evidence? How strange....

 

[jjenny]

BBM: A cat? Hopefully, that is an alive cat? For evidence? How strange....

Maybe the cat was removed not for evidence but to put in a shelter so it doesn't die from starvation being alone in the apartment.

 

[deelytful1]

I was thinking...I live in a city with a Hassidic Jewish neighbourhood. A couple of the things that strike me when I am in that part of town (apart from the dress) are 1) the children are always walking around all over the place by themselves, even across busy streets and 2) the residents seem to always be outside. I don't think that most of the women work and most of them have quite a few children which results in many, many people walking and sitting on their front porches at all times of the day.

Wouldn't one of LA's neighbours have seen him going into his house with a child?

I believe he lived in Kensington which is outside the area of Boro Park and the Chasidic neighborhood.

 

[Crosby87]

We don't need laws for things like this. And it's no guarantee anyway. A child should be educated by his or her parents about which places are safe havens BEFORE they allow them to walk alone in the street. In Brooklyn there are some places of isolation but usually there is a shop or deli that if you are friendly with the owner or workers this can be a safe haven.

My DH pointed out that if he got lost one block away from his destination that he wasn't aware enough of his neighborhood to walk around alone. And it's so very sad but it's true. Although you would not expect something like this to happen, there are other things that could go wrong. The mother should have followed her son on the first few tries and had him meet up in a specific location. This way she could observe his behaviors as he walked alone, ex "does he look both ways" "does he interact with strangers"

I've done this with my own son a few times and realized that he stops to put the lids back on garbage cans on the way to school. Seemed to me to be a perfect set up for a pedophile, go ahead of him and pull the lids off then approach him when he's fixing them to tell him what a great kid he is for helping the neighborhood out.

But as I said before, the culture in this neighborhood has always been to led little children roam unattended. So I'm sure she was swayed by that.


Creepier and creepier, the first apartment I rented myself when I first moved to NYC was at 479 E9th St. in Kensington Brooklyn. Mod Snip.

I wonder why none of Leiby's sisters were attending day camp with him?

IMO, LK should have walked the route with his mother or sister until he knew the route by heart. Once wasn't enough and I'm annoyed with the school officials who didn't step in and request a meeting with the Letzky family first to establish goals together which would support this change in stages.

Based on what LA wrote in his confession, LK didn't know what to do when he got lost and Aron did not take charge of the situation like an adult who finds himself in this position needs to. Until LA panicked because of the massive search that was going on for the boy on Tuesday, LA treated Leiby like an adult rather than a child and he let Leiby call the shots and make his own decisions which he wasn't capable of doing.

No sane adult would ask a child who was lost on their way home from school if they wanted to go to attend a wedding with them but perhaps LA didn't know this was wrong because he doesn't have children of his own so he has no parental authority and no experience to draw from to help him find the way out.

This could be what his lawyers mean who said "All we can say at this time without going into specifics upon talking to him for quite some time is that there&#8217;s a severe diminished capacity,&#8221; said Gerard Marrone, one of Aron&#8217;s defense attorneys.

It seems LA did not have anyone, a friend or relative, he could turn to when he needed help and that disempowers a person and leaves them feeling confused and out of control. No one said Levi had a phone in his attic apartment. For instance, if LA had called and confided in an adult, this person may have stepped in and helped LA return the child and collect the reward money. $100000 is alot of money and I doubt LA applied this information about the reward money to himself and understood its implications. It should have spurred LA into returning LK and it didn't so I believe Aron focused on the mounting pressure and he mentally didn't consider the opportunity that was right in front of him.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/07...ath-of-leiby-kletzky-may-be-issued-wednesday/

<snipped>
A boy approached me on where the Judaica book store was. He was still there when went out from the dentist&#8217;s office. He asked me for a ride to the Judaica book store. While on the way he changed his mind and wasn&#8217;t sure where he wanted to go.

So I asked if he wanted to go for the ride &#8212; wedding in Monsey &#8212; since I didn&#8217;t think I was going to stay for the whole thing since my back was hurting. He said ok.

 

[Crosby87]

- This report confirms Levi Aron worked a full-day on Tuesday.

- It&#8217;s possible Leiby attended the wedding with Aron Monday evening and no one paid any attention to them. Approximately 500 people attended so it is possible Leiby blended in amongst the other boys and no one asked any questions. I am not 100% confident Leiby did not attend the wedding with LA. Generally speaking, unless you indicate on your RSVP you will be bringing a guest, you can&#8217;t change your mind at the last minute and bring one but maybe this rule of etiquette doesn&#8217;t apply in the Jewish Culture and LA could take a guest if he wanted to.

-It&#8217;s odd that none of Levi Aron&#8217;s relatives who lived on the main floor attended the wedding on their own or planned to go with Aron. His family comprised of his father, stepmother, uncle and two brothers who lived on the main floor.

NY man accused of killing, dismembering boy is "hearing voices"
<snipped>

Scratch marks on the man's arms indicate the boy put up a fierce struggle, said Police Commissioner Ray Kelly at a press briefing on Thursday.

In a rambling confession, Aron said that on Monday night he took the boy with him to a wedding in Monsey, New York, and then brought him back to his apartment to sleep because it was late, Kelly said.

He said marks found on the boy's body parts indicate he was tied up and held captive, possibly while Aron went to work at a parts supply store on Tuesday, returning home after his shift ended in the early evening.

Neighbors said Aron was never considered part of the community, which pulled together in times of crisis.

"We're a very closely knit community where everyone knows everyone. He's more of an outcast or an outsider," said David Green, who lives nearby.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/14/us-crime-boy-idUSTRE76D6WX20110714

 

[WideOpen]

Leiby was such an innocent and trusting child. He must have sensed early on that something was not right with the experience he was encountering with LA. I can't imagine his fear or what his little mind was thinking. I hate the way LA is rationalizing in his sick mind it was this sweet boys fault. This is so upsetting!!! The poor grieving family-my prayers for them.

I have had one strange experience with a Hasidic man. He was a chance encounter while he was visiting from New York. He had traveled here to meet a woman he met online through a dating site. When she failed to show but I was there to rescue and help him around town he then thought I was his soulmate, at first I did not understand, did my research and eventually confronted him and told him I wasn't his soulmate and he left town after two weeks. My point is that their beliefs and customs are so much different than ours and very, very interesting. If you haven't already researched their beliefs you should, it will help give you more insight into this horrid murder.

 

[deelytful1]

Now THIS is a scary comment!

When CBS 2&#8242;s Kristin Thorne asked Brooklyn DA Charles Hynes if they&#8217;ve found evidence of other victims, he refused to answer.

&#8220;You have a perfect right to ask any of those questions, and I have a perfect right not to answer them,&#8221; he said.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/07...ath-of-leiby-kletzky-may-be-issued-wednesday/

Perhaps there are other unsolved cases where a deceased child (person) was found and they found remnants of animal (cat) hair? That could be a reason to remove the cat as evidence. They would have had an ASPCA officer remove the cat if it was just for its safety.
We also don't know yet if LK had been molested so we don't know if LA was purely a killer or a pedophile.
The cat hair would be something LE probably would not have divulged in reference to other open cases, so....
I suppose we'll have to wait.