NY - LISK Bodies found as of December 10, 2011 Thread #13

[Reannan]

Just wanted to say welcome Doop, Windsor, and anyone else who is new to Websleuths and/or this case. This is a case with many twist and turns. It is also a case where we appear to be dealing with incompetence or subterfuge due to some sort of twisted conspiracy. Time and experience has taught me to look towards the lowest common denominator - but I never close my mind to other possibilities either.

 

[Doop]

Just wanted to say welcome Doop, Windsor, and anyone else who is new to Websleuths and/or this case. This is a case with many twist and turns. It is also a case where we appear to be dealing with incompetence or subterfuge due to some sort of twisted conspiracy. Time and experience has taught me to look towards the lowest common denominator - but I never close my mind to other possibilities either.

that you, and I agree with you about the many possibilities.

 

[Seaslug44]

But wait - who ever said they were "cleared"? I never read or heard that. I've never heard the words "ruled out" either. I've heard it said they aren't "a suspect" but isn't that different from being "cleared" or "ruled out" - couldn't they be omitting the words "at this time" , or isn't it possible that, unless they are definitively ruled out, things could still change?

The detectives have said it, the homicide supervisors have said it, Dormer has said it,the police spokesperson has said it and about five hundred newspapers have printed it.

The best source of reference is Newsday because they are not only the local paper but are owned by Cablevision who also owns News 12 Long Island (so we receive double confirmation of all information). Newsday has this really neat Glossary of Terms associated with this case. looking through the glossary Found Here you'll find the exact quotes concerning the three men in question;

Hackett, Peter
An Oak Beach doctor who contacted Shannan Gilbert's mother, Mari, shortly after her disappearance. Gilbert and Hackett disagree on when the conversation took place and what was said. Police have said he is not a suspect.

Pak, Michael
The driver for Shannan Gilbert on the night she disappeared in Oak Beach. Police have said he is not a suspect.

Brewer, Joseph
The Oak Beach man summoned Shannan Gilbert to his house May 1, 2010, with a Craigslist ad. He has said he had no sexual contact with her and never paid her. She was last seen running near his house in the middle of the night. Police have said he is not a suspect in her disappearance.

I know (especially in light of the recent info posted by Truthspider in "The Last Happy Hour" thread) that CPH's colorful past makes him appear to have all of the markers of a serial killer. Here is another look at Dormer putting the theory that CPH is the serial killer to rest;

Dormer, speaking during an afternoon news conference in Yaphank in Suffolk County, also said an oak Beach doctor linked to the case by the family of a missing New Jersey call girl is not a suspect.

"I think that that was pretty much debunked," Dormer said, referring to Dr. Charles P. Hackett. "We spoke to that individual very early on and he has been very cooperative."

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/...chnology_a4HyUDmIa03bCsUpH250xJ#ixzz1htpzudDk

As for the other two men, MP's interview on the A&E special left most of us thinking to ourselves how that guy is obviously hiding something. JB doesn't exactly have a fan club of supporters either.

Nevertheless, the police have clearly stated specifically that all three men are not suspects. I'm not saying that this is my opinion. I'm just passing along what has been told to us by the police department. The department does not play any word games. If they say that they are sure that these men are not suspects it means that they are confident that they have evidence that clears them, rules them out or whatever way we can state that they did not commit the crimes. The only game SCPD is permitted to play (by their own rules) is the silent game. So if they were still suspecting one of the three men of being responsible for SG or any of the other victims they would have stated "no comment at this time" (that is their favorite way of playing the silent game).

 

[SherlockHomes]

Not a suspect is different than "cleared". Anyone can go from being "not a suspect" to a suspect once evidence is found, correct? If JB and DR are not suspected of something, why did the police search their houses with dogs?

 

[truthspider]

The detectives have said it, the homicide supervisors have said it, Dormer has said it,the police spokesperson has said it and about five hundred newspapers have printed it.

The best source of reference is Newsday because they are not only the local paper but are owned by Cablevision who also owns News 12 Long Island (so we receive double confirmation of all information). Newsday has this really neat Glossary of Terms associated with this case. looking through the glossary Found Here you'll find the exact quotes concerning the three men in question;



I know (especially in light of the recent info posted by Truthspider in "The Last Happy Hour" thread) that CPH's colorful past makes him appear to have all of the markers of a serial killer. Here is another look at Dormer putting the theory that CPH is the serial killer to rest;



As for the other two men, MP's interview on the A&E special left most of us thinking to ourselves how that guy is obviously hiding something. JB doesn't exactly have a fan club of supporters either.

Nevertheless, the police have clearly stated specifically that all three men are not suspects. I'm not saying that this is my opinion. I'm just passing along what has been told to us by the police department. The department does not play any word games. If they say that they are sure that these men are not suspects it means that they are confident that they have evidence that clears them, rules them out or whatever way we can state that they did not commit the crimes. The only game SCPD is permitted to play (by their own rules) is the silent game. So if they were still suspecting one of the three men of being responsible for SG or any of the other victims they would have stated "no comment at this time" (that is their favorite way of playing the silent game).

I think you are assuming that "not suspects" is equivalent to "cleared".

"not suspects" simply means has not been named a suspect (yet). I don't believe anyone has been "cleared". I remember Dormer reiterating that "everything is on da table" and that they haven't ruled out anyone or anything.

 

[goathairjones]

Let's just say that the SCPD is in some very hot water and has been under investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice and one of the areas of concern is making sure that all levels of the department remain completely truthful with their superiors and with the public. The department is in enough trouble. They are taking precautions to be on their best behavior. It would not be good timing if they told the public that these men have been ruled out as suspects if that is not truly the case. If one of these men is the serial killer and they suspect it but are telling the public the opposite, then the blood of any future victims is on the department's hands. Gross negligence.

Info about the current investigation of the SCPD can be found here:

http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/documents/suffolkPD_TA_9-13-11.pdf

Seaslug,

I completely disagree with you on this point. The document you linked to is a Justice Department regarding Suffolk's policies on hate crimes and how it serves the Latino community. It has nothing to do with the truthfulness of the SCPD on other police matters especially in an investigation such as this. As a matter of fact, if the FBI is telling SCPD what to release, then there absolutely no connection between the naming of suspects and the Justice Department investigation.

 

[goathairjones]

I seem to remember Dormer stating that these people are not suspects at this point in time and that could change at any point if new information became available. I will have to look at some old video clips to find it, but I am pretty sure that he has said it in this manner.

 

[Dionysia]

Also, just because CPH isn't a suspect in SG's death/disappearance, doesn't mean he isn't responsible for the Manorville and Oak Beach victims (i.e., isn't the LISK).

Just my $.02.

 

[Seaslug44]

suspect: accused, accused person, alleged malfeasor, alleged offender, alleged transgressor, alleged wrongdoer, individual under suspicion, one suspected of a crime, person accused of crime, presumed wrongdoer, sussected criminal.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/suspect

"Not a Suspect:" not accused, not an accused person, not an alleged malfeasor, not an alleged offender, not an alleged transgressor, not an alleged wrongdoer, not individual under suspicion, not one suspected of a crime, not a person accused of crime, not a presumed wrongdoer, not a sussected criminal.

When asked about each of the three men, why not just say "no comment" or "we are still investigating"?

Why specifically state (on more than one occassion) that these men are not suspects?

If any of the three men are currently being seriously suspected of being the LISK, wouldn't the detectives be watching their every move around the clock seven days a week until this case is solved?

And once again I ask, do you honestly think that the County would put themselves in the position of endangering the public by stating that a suspect is not a suspect to play some sort of head game with the psycho maniac?

Seriously, what happens if their "not a suspect" person kills again and their case records show that they used the press to purposely state misleading information to the public?

 

[Seaslug44]

I forget, did we ever figure out if there was any truth behind this statement?

Gilbert, a prostitute from Jersey City, was last seen in May by Long Island doctor Peter Hackett, who said he saw Gilbert running at night near Oak Beach, looking both sick and distressed.

“These people need closure and we need to find this girl if she is alive,” he said.

CBS News

There still remains one 911 caller who was never identified ever by the police.

Is it possible that CPH was that caller?

Is this one of the reasons why they were so quick to rule him out as a suspect?

Or is this another one of CPH's made-up heroic moments?

 

[Seaslug44]

Another quote;

The doctor, Peter Hackett, said that he did speak to the police and he talked about the search for human remains along Ocean Parkway.

“This is important that this is done because these people need closure and we need to find this girl if she’s alive,” said Dr. Hackett.

Sophia Hall

 

[Seaslug44]

The police say the doctor is cooperating and they don't consider him a suspect, or even a person of interest.

Inside Edition

And we know they spoke with him several times;

In addition to the searching, investigators are fanning out to interview more people.

"I can't imagine who would do such a horrible, mean thing," Oak Beach resident Dr. Peter Hackett said.

Dr. Hackett is one of several people detectives have interviewed. The former head of Suffolk County Emergency Medical Services and former police surgeon told Eyewitness News that investigators have talked with him two or three times.

"It's beyond me, you know, the level of my belief," he said. "I can't even imagine it happening."

ABC Local

 

[scandi]

what if he told her he would hide her from the cops and she was actually inside his house the whole time?



naaaah...that's crazy...but so is this case...

does GC own an off road V? I wonder.

Hi, I can't quite see GC being involved. It is of record that Shannan was seen at 2 homes after she left Gus'. She was seen by both mother and son at the Canning's and also by BB. We could add CPH if we believed him, as he said he saw her, took her in and she left the next mornng :waitasec:

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Hi, I can't quite see GC being involved. It is of record that Shannan was seen at 2 homes after she left Gus'. She was seen by both mother and son at the Canning's and also by BB. We could add CPH if we believed him, as he said he saw her, took her in and she left the next mornng :waitasec:

Excited utterance maybe?

 

[Sillybilly]

"Not a suspect" can change at the drop of a hat.

In our thread on Audrey Gleave, LE publicly stated within a couple of days of her horrific murder that the handyman was "absolutely ruled out". This changed, and police told him there were some "discrepancies" in his results. This is what the handyman had to say here in Audrey's thread:

from:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6987998&postcount=201"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #2[/ame]

FYI... the police have restarted the investigation "from scratch" so officially I've been told that I am a person of interest again. I wonder if the community can comment, is this normal? As everyone knows, I was interviewed extensively, my car and person searched, myself and shoes were measured and photographed and DNA was collected from me in the first round of investigation where I was originally eliminated. However, the last few weeks have brought new interviews and a polygraph exam. Maybe someone with some experience can tell me what I can expect in the next couple months?

Just one other example of "not a suspect" is in the case of the murder of Jessie Davis where her policeman boyfriend Bobby Cutts, "not a suspect", was ultimately charged and convicted of her murder.

from:
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_and_murder_of_Jessie_Davis"]Disappearance and murder of Jessie Davis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

For much of the period leading to the discovery of the body, local law enforcement told the news media that Cutts was not a suspect, or even a "person of interest"

After Dormer used the "debunked" word (nobody could hear the reporter's question that prompted that response, but it was believed it was WRT the phone call to Mari ... the presser was live and I can't locate it now), he later said to the effect "we are looking into that". (Don't recall if that was before or after CPH's letters to 48 Hours).

ETA: Sorry, the handyman was and is therefore only a "person of interest" at this point, and has not officially been upgraded to "suspect" category. Again, as in any case, that can quickly change depending on what the investigation uncovers.

 

[Sillybilly]

Why specifically state (on more than one occassion) that these men are not suspects?

If any of the three men are currently being seriously suspected of being the LISK, wouldn't the detectives be watching their every move around the clock seven days a week until this case is solved?

<rsbm>

LE plays word games along with the best of them. They want to put something out there (after all, they do call these pressers, and they are trying to outsmart a serial killer.) When LE says "no comment", it immediately conjures up a belief that there is some underlying suspicion, and they don't want to tip any perp's hand with such a statement.

And yes, if any of these men are suspects, they would of course be under surveillance .... very, very surreptitiously, and LE sure as hell isn't going to tell them, or us. Let's not forget either that, from the beginning, they stated that the LISK is possibly former or current LE. If so, they know they are dealing with someone who can analyze every word and every tactic from a different viewpoint than the general public. (i.e. Bobby Cutts was a cop, but not anymore).

 

[snapdragon2]

The detectives have said it, the homicide supervisors have said it, Dormer has said it,the police spokesperson has said it and about five hundred newspapers have printed it.

The best source of reference is Newsday because they are not only the local paper but are owned by Cablevision who also owns News 12 Long Island (so we receive double confirmation of all information). Newsday has this really neat Glossary of Terms associated with this case. looking through the glossary Found Here you'll find the exact quotes concerning the three men in question;



I know (especially in light of the recent info posted by Truthspider in "The Last Happy Hour" thread) that CPH's colorful past makes him appear to have all of the markers of a serial killer. Here is another look at Dormer putting the theory that CPH is the serial killer to rest;



As for the other two men, MP's interview on the A&E special left most of us thinking to ourselves how that guy is obviously hiding something. JB doesn't exactly have a fan club of supporters either.

Nevertheless, the police have clearly stated specifically that all three men are not suspects. I'm not saying that this is my opinion. I'm just passing along what has been told to us by the police department. The department does not play any word games. If they say that they are sure that these men are not suspects it means that they are confident that they have evidence that clears them, rules them out or whatever way we can state that they did not commit the crimes. The only game SCPD is permitted to play (by their own rules) is the silent game. So if they were still suspecting one of the three men of being responsible for SG or any of the other victims they would have stated "no comment at this time" (that is their favorite way of playing the silent game).

Hi,

You missed my point. I said they have never used the words "cleared" or "ruled out." I believe semantics is important here. The words used in the examples you furnished were exactly as I said I had only ever seen them"Cleared"/"ruled out" definitely indicate something more definitive than "not a suspect." . But I think you are saying that the police wouldn't be so particular about wording and therefore we can assume they mean cleared? I don't have much experience with police matters so others would know better than I about that, yourself included I'm sure. But it does seem to me that the police would in fact be very careful about how they word things. And, especially since there is so much ongoing speculation about these three people, including on national t.v. programs on the subject, one would think that if they were definitely cleared the police might choose to be more emphatic about that. Of course, when they can't even tie Shannan's death to anyone at this time, one wouldn't expect they be able to label any of these guys a suspect in the other deaths.

I do think what Dormer said in that one article you quoted makes it sound more emphatic, but again that was back in April, so who knows how that stands now. He was also saying it was several killers back then, and now he's says it's one. If they truly have ruled them out definitively e.g. they have alibis for the nights the women disappeared - I wish they'd say so. If I were one of those 3 guys, I'd want them to be more emphatic and clear about that too...!

 

[snapdragon2]

suspect: accused, accused person, alleged malfeasor, alleged offender, alleged transgressor, alleged wrongdoer, individual under suspicion, one suspected of a crime, person accused of crime, presumed wrongdoer, sussected criminal.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/suspect

"Not a Suspect:" not accused, not an accused person, not an alleged malfeasor, not an alleged offender, not an alleged transgressor, not an alleged wrongdoer, not individual under suspicion, not one suspected of a crime, not a person accused of crime, not a presumed wrongdoer, not a sussected criminal.

When asked about each of the three men, why not just say "no comment" or "we are still investigating"?

Why specifically state (on more than one occassion) that these men are not suspects?

If any of the three men are currently being seriously suspected of being the LISK, wouldn't the detectives be watching their every move around the clock seven days a week until this case is solved?

And once again I ask, do you honestly think that the County would put themselves in the position of endangering the public by stating that a suspect is not a suspect to play some sort of head game with the psycho maniac?

Seriously, what happens if their "not a suspect" person kills again and their case records show that they used the press to purposely state misleading information to the public?

The context in which a word is used is as important in assessing the meaning as the dictionary definition, Seaslug. Furnishing a list of synonyms and the definition of the word doesn't prove anything.

Just as you ask why wouldn't LE just choose to say "no comment" or "we are still investigating" if these people had not been definitively ruled out, I ask - why wouldn't they just choose to say "they have been cleared" or "they have been ruled out as suspects" if they had been definitively ruled out? The answer to me is - "not a suspect" is more open-ended - it leaves open the possibility of that changing (or not.) But "no comment" sounds a bit sinister - if they said that, I'd immediately think they definitely WERE suspects! As for "we are still investigating" - maybe they aren't. Maybe they aren't because they hit a dead end, but they're still not entirely convinced. In that case, wouldn't they pretty much be obligated to say "not a suspect" - (if I were one of the 3, I'd insist upon it!)

To me, "not a suspect" could be construed as "we still have our suspicions but we have no evidence and we can't do anything about it - right now."

Also - how do you know they aren't being watched around the clock?

 

[Reannan]

For me, the words of LE flew out the window in April 2011 when they said that multiple serial killers were involved. Based on the little evidence we were privy to, how could they make that statement? Just because the Manorville victims and the Gilgo Beach victims were disposed of in "in-tact" and "decapitated" formats, does not necessarily mean it was two different serial killers, IMHO. The Manorville and Gilgo Beach murders were years apart! Serial killers DO evolve and DO change some of their methods of both murder, and body disposal. Then, in November(???) [recently = don't have the link right now], Dormer comes out and says it is the work of a single SK. I thought "Duh, Sherlock!!!" Unless Suffolk County LE are complete idiots, CPH can NOT be off of the hook because the crime(s) have not been solved, so it could be ANYONE! They were sure looking at him earlier this year according to this statement:

"According to multiple sources familiar with the investigation a number of persons are under investigation in connection with the first eight corpses, and those include persons of interest with a law enforcement or emergency service background, and familiarity with the beach."

Now who do we know in this saga that has an "emergency service background"??? And probably has a scanner in his home that was capable of hearing the chatter about the 911 calls that Shannon made that morning.

Link: http://abcnews.go.com/US/long-island-bodies-killer/story?id=13346276#.Tv0TUHqVqck

 

[truthspider]

For me, the words of LE flew out the window in April 2011 when they said that multiple serial killers were involved. Based on the little evidence we were privy to, how could they make that statement? Just because the Manorville victims and the Gilgo Beach victims were disposed of in "in-tact" and "decapitated" formats, does not necessarily mean it was two different serial killers, IMHO. The Manorville and Gilgo Beach murders were years apart! Serial killers DO evolve and DO change some of their methods of both murder, and body disposal. Then, in November(???) [recently = don't have the link right now], Dormer comes out and says it is the work of a single SK. I thought "Duh, Sherlock!!!" Unless Suffolk County LE are complete idiots, CPH can NOT be off of the hook because the crime(s) have not been solved, so it could be ANYONE! They were sure looking at him earlier this year according to this statement:

"According to multiple sources familiar with the investigation a number of persons are under investigation in connection with the first eight corpses, and those include persons of interest with a law enforcement or emergency service background, and familiarity with the beach."

Now who do we know in this saga that has an "emergency service background"??? And probably has a scanner in his home that was capable of hearing the chatter about the 911 calls that Shannon made that morning.

Link: http://abcnews.go.com/US/long-island-bodies-killer/story?id=13346276#.Tv0TUHqVqck

For the purpose of this case, I think the definition of "person or interest" or "suspect" is someone who LE has questioned a number of times, asked to take a poly, searched their property with cadaver dogs, and finally brought a large crane to their backyard to dig a deep hole while by standing officers covered their noses and mouths with their sleeves... but that is just the way I see it.

When your suspect isn't a joe schmo, LE can't be one either. I bet when they questioned him, regardless of the number of hours the questioning lasted, CPH turned down every offer of coffee or water. He certainly doesn't want to hand LE his DNA. Maybe if he got real thirsty he drank the water then asked for a cigarette and set fire to the paper cup in the trash bin to destroy the DNA he would have left behind...lol

I hate to say it but in this case of CPH vs LE, my money is on CPH, the law is designed to be forgiving, which is why I am here.