NY-Long Island-Four bodies found on Beach-Possible Serial Killer-Dec 2010 #1

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nothing weird about bodies lying about when you discover a serial killer's hidey hole.
 
minazoe said:
nothing weird about bodies lying about when you discover a serial killer's hidey hole.
Click to expand...


"Hidey hole..." I like that. I meant weird in the sense that while I expected them to find more bodies, I theorized they would be found elsewhere for a few reasons. It could end up being unrelated anyway, maybe it's just another bizarre coincidence.
 
thats alot of bodies and body parts to be a coincidence...did we have experts who know if the water has ever come up far enough on that shoreline to carry bodies from the water to where they were found?

sorry if this has been covered.
 
internetgirl101 said:
Psychics weigh in: Who is the Gilgo Beach killer?

Police are still investigating the multiple murders.


Mary Rose, a Babylon-based psychic with 25 years of police profiling experience, believes that the Gilgo Beach serial killer is living among us, hiding in plain sight.

“He commutes on the Long Island Rail Road. He has hazel or light-colored eyes. He’s very charming but hates his mother with a passion. It’s possible that his mother is a petite woman,” Rose told Metro.

“He has anger management issues and a cocaine problem. Not a good combination,” she continued. “It’s very possible that he was high on cocaine when the killings occurred. He could be a strangler. I see women’s necks. He goes for the jugular.”

On Jan. 24, the three remaining women’s bodies found on Gilgo Beach last December were positively identified by Long Island authorities, bringing the total number of corpses found and named to four. Suffolk County Police Commissioner Richard Dormer determined that the case has all the marks of a serial killer.

“This guy is very clever. It’s like a game to him,” said Dawn Joly, a psychic from Smithtown. “He’s outgoing, but I get a chemical imbalance.

“First, he connects with his victims sexually,” Joly added. “I feel a white car and a wooded area. I see a Jones Beach connection. He travels around but he is from New York. I believe he is on Long Island.”

“He’s hostile and does not respect women. He has serious mommy issues,” said J. Pelligrino, a seer from Huntington. “I believe he’s gone. This case has gotten too much attention. He’s hiding out in a place with a heavy population.”
Click to expand...

BBM - I've thought all along it's a Long Islander hiding in plain site who uses LIRR, and I'm no psychic, and Joly saying he left the area with no clue as to where he's gone doesn't tell us where else to look, but the Jones Beach comment is interesting.

They have a lot of security guards and other staff working the ampitheater in the summer there, and the car park is vast and desolate once the audience moves out. Someone working a second job would have a reason to be out late in the area, and because they're outdoor concerts, they're only on in the summer.

Did anyone check the concert series for matching dates by any chance? I can't remember the dates these 4 went missing either, so I'm not very good at this! If anyone does check, the schedule is regularly updated during the season as they add extra shows, so it will need careful sleuthing the get the finite list of what actually took place, also the occasional but rare cancellation due to weather. They are normally rain or shine.

The car park there is packed before and during the concerts, people without tickets hanging out and partying. I have no idea if it has ever been connected with prostitutes moving between the cars, but I suppose it's possible. After the concerts end, it quickly becomes a vast and desolate place, not a place to hang around.

[ame="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Seaford,+New+York+11783+%28Nikon+at+Jones+Beach+Theater%29&daddr=Gilgo+Beach,+Babylon,+NY&geocode=FXSEawId0Wye-yEQHm_6JAJ8XQ%3BFcPJawIdiQqg-yknLS62ptPpiTHo7j2GA-pbBA&hl=en&mra=pd&mrcr=0&sll=40.609228,-73.759063&sspn=0.438916,0.967484&ie=UTF8&ll=40.599503,-73.506818&spn=0.006859,0.015117&t=h&z=17"]http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Seaford,+New+York+11783+(Nikon+at+Jones+Beach+Theater)&daddr=Gilgo+Beach,+Babylon,+NY&geocode=FXSEawId0Wye-yEQHm_6JAJ8XQ%3BFcPJawIdiQqg-yknLS62ptPpiTHo7j2GA-pbBA&hl=en&mra=pd&mrcr=0&sll=40.609228,-73.759063&sspn=0.438916,0.967484&ie=UTF8&ll=40.599503,-73.506818&spn=0.006859,0.015117&t=h&z=17[/ame]

Sorry if this has been mentioned and eliminated already, I don't get to follow threads all that closely these days.
 
waltzingmatilda said:
Is Facebook the new Craigslist for Hookers?

http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/07/6005090-is-facebook-the-new-craigslist-for-hookers

Interesting info in this article, IMO.

I didn't know that prostitutes usually carry 2 phones. I bet that Johns who solicit regularly do the same.

I have thought the same thing as the psychic said. This perp has mommy issues, IMO.

wm
Click to expand...

The escorts are just as concerned about their privacy as the clients are about theirs. In both cases generally the phone they use for their "business" will have no connection with their personal life so that they are not accidently outed. Being discovered either as an escort or as someone who visits escorts can have very negative effects on your social life and sometimes professional life. So, having two phones is common.
 
Another thing, that breakdown of how escorts/prostitutes find business doesn't really jive with what you read on message boards that focus on the subculture. Those folk look down on streetwalkers btw, and the vast majority wouldn't think about using a street girls services (or a working girl picked up from a bar for that matter). Besides craigslist (which is not really used anymore) there are a number of very similar nationwide online classified services. Also, a lot of these women also use the classified sections of local newspapers and their online counterparts. Excluding the streetwalker types, most "local" business is done through "craigslist" type services and other local media. That includes massage parlors and brothels. Higher end local independents typically have their own websites, which are advertised on a variety of escort-focused advertising sites. These girls also get most of their business locally. Traditional escort agencies tend to have visiting out of towners (business men mostly, who don't know the local scene) as their primary source of clients. Their ads would be found mostly in newspapers and the yellow pages. I have never read anything on these boards to suggest that facebook is being used though, so, if it is for these 290 prostitutes who made up the study, it is probably a local phenomena.
 
svpernin said:
This is my first time posting here so I apologize if I am not doing this right. I have read this entire thread and just wanted to add a few things. I’ve been following this case closely, I live in the area and all the victims were women around my age. I’m amazed by the lack of concern I’ve been noticing. I don’t know if people seem less concerned with the crimes because of the lifestyle of the victims or the hush-hush handling by LE (which I know is likely for a good reason), but local media’s coverage has been surprisingly scarce. There’s actually even been talk of massively cutting the budget for the Suffolk County crime lab which is absolutely ridiculous considering there’s a serial killer at large (unless LE knows something we don’t, which is entirely possible).

Anyway, I haven’t seen this posted yet so I wanted to mention it: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...ker_probe_turns_to_fone_calls_from_johns.html

Most of the article is common sense for an investigation of this nature but I found it interesting that they mentioned that they are looking into three specific men who had been in contact with more than one of the victims (At least, that’s what it seems to be saying, the wording is open to interpretation). I wonder if JB is one of those men? I also wonder if they are including SG’s phone records in their search, I think it would be beneficial because I have a feeling she is going to be the key to solving this case (she already has been a critical player in the discovery of the bodies).

My heart goes out to the families of these women. I hope this monster is brought to justice before he is able to rob another child of his/her mother.

To everyone who has been posting on here, keep up the good work, the collective knowledge of concerned individuals could have a great impact on a case like this.
Click to expand...

welcome to websleuths svpernin =)

you mention the lack of interest and concern in this case; i've noticed it as well. i'm not sure if it's that the media is lacking in reporting serial murders, society is so desensitized by now or what it is...
back in the 80's ramirez the nightstalker and others made huge headlines and nowadays it's as if a serial killer is lucky to get a paragraph if mentioned at all.
i'm not sure if it's a take by le to not give them attention, yet if the media felt it a "hungry story" i'm sure it'd be out anyway.


thank you for the article link. my question is the 3 men that police have zeroed in on, did all 3 mens' phone records show up on all the girls' phones and email or just some or one of the girls?

would it be possible that these 3 men killed together? or that really only 1 of the 3 is a real possible interest? then there is always the case that they were only just clients.

human trafficking has become a very big problem here in the states, even in our local paper there was several articles involving either stings, or different busts. one man was caught driving a van with underage girls for human trafficking. some weren't over here legally, regardless the case human trafficking has to be stopped.
 
Tugela said:
Considering that the average outcall is an hour, I highly doubt that. Incall dates are half hour or an hour mostly (sometimes longer for the higher end girls). There would be time inbetween for a shower and cleaning up (otherwise their clients would refuse to see them, lol), so I think even a girl doing a high throughput at most would be seeing not more than 10 a day. And that would be exceptional, these girls are competing with each other and dont have a line of clients outside their door. An average of 3-5 a day for a very active girl is more realistic. A mid to high end escort will seldom see more than 1-2 clients a day, and sometimes none.

Keep in mind that most of the statistics you hear about prostitution are for streetwalkers, and don't apply generally in the case of the craigslist girls or high end escorts
Click to expand...


it is very realistic that they do have to sometimes 20 and more men a day.
here's a case where the women had to sleep with 10-20 men a night. this ring was recently busted up here.

http://www.lohud.com/article/201102...ing-Valley-cops-charge-6-in-prostitution-raid

here's an article about lawrence taylor (famous football player who had a prostitute) regarding human trafficking:

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011102130325

here's a case where the van was stopped for a traffic stop and le found it to be more human trafficking:

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011102080325

human trafficking is a huge problem. serial killers always have preyed on prostitutes and they likely always will.

why can't we have a dexter?
 
what the psychics weight in on sounds textbook to me. could be right, it's anyones best guesses.

tugela, thank you for the link,
http://www.newsday.com/news/families-frustrated-with-missing-prostitute-cases-1.2682508

i hope they are able to find elena lozada, it sure shows how the police don't take missing prostitute cases seriously. this is why they are #1 choice of serial killers, as they aren't the rich girl next door whose face will be posted across national news stations. this is the problem. discrimination.

as for sg going missing and jb having her at his house last, if he was the killer, it wouldn't make sense for him to dump them so close to home. it's stupid, yet if he got so cocky that he thought he could get away with it (him or any serial killer local to the area) they may actually dump them near.

the lack of interest in this case is surprising, are serial killers not interesting anymore?

i wonder if the killer has been a regular client of these girls, getting to "know" them before he kills them. maybe he frequents them first to gain some type of "trust" or at least a false facade that he is a "safe" guy. then out of nowhere he kills them.

the calls made to barthelemys family is interesting as it seems he had singled her family out for a reason. did she do something to piss him off? from what we know the killer didn't make calls to any of the other girls' families. she was the 2nd missing that we know of in order from the pack. from what we know he didn't call the first or ones following bathelemy's families.

my guess was she pissed him off somehow. what about her or what she did pissed him off? did she remind him of someone, give him a problem, put up a fight?

for some reason he chose one girl to harass her family. something must have struck a nerve with him.
 
chemcopout said:
it is very realistic that they do have to sometimes 20 and more men a day.
here's a case where the women had to sleep with 10-20 men a night. this ring was recently busted up here.

http://www.lohud.com/article/201102...ing-Valley-cops-charge-6-in-prostitution-raid

here's an article about lawrence taylor (famous football player who had a prostitute) regarding human trafficking:

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011102130325

here's a case where the van was stopped for a traffic stop and le found it to be more human trafficking:

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011102080325

human trafficking is a huge problem. serial killers always have preyed on prostitutes and they likely always will.

why can't we have a dexter?
Click to expand...

Those are the extreme cases though, most women who work in prostitution don't do anything close to those numbers, certainly no escort would. 20 clients a day would probably be a situation in which the woman was physically being held and definitely would be the very low end of the industry.

Numbers like that are trotted out by activists to shock and make their case that something should be done, but they do not reflect the norm. Most women engaged in prostitution do so because they choose to (and leave when they choose to). They might preferr not to, but that isn't the same thing. The usual reason for getting into it is because they have few or no options in their life, and it seems like an easy way to solve that problem or for getting a better life to them. Society might not agree with their reasons and in time they often come to regret it, but that still doesn't change the fact that they chose to do it. Excercising poor judgement doesnt make you a victim.

As far as enforcing any law is concerned, LE would still have to prove their case, which means that in the absence of a complaint or some sort of sting (such as elicting solicitation) they can't do anything about it. In Taylor's situation he got dinged because the girl was a bit underage, if she had been older there would have been no case. So, in situations where a girl is being held against her will, or smuggled illegally into the country, authorities can do something, but not really otherwise.

Up here in Canada prostitution itself is not illegal, but some activities associated with it are (such as solicitation, running a brothel, pimping). So the escorts are largely left alone by LE, if they fall foul of any regulation it more likely would be city business licensing requirements - but I don't think that happens too often. I don't know what the situation in the US is like, probably for practical purposes it is largely the same thing. So the women in this particular case could freely ply their trade largely below LE radar because of how everything is done. And that need for doing everything in secret and under the radar is also what placed them in harms way. Something to think about.
 
chemcopout said:
welcome to websleuths svpernin =)

you mention the lack of interest and concern in this case; i've noticed it as well. i'm not sure if it's that the media is lacking in reporting serial murders, society is so desensitized by now or what it is...
back in the 80's ramirez the nightstalker and others made huge headlines and nowadays it's as if a serial killer is lucky to get a paragraph if mentioned at all.
i'm not sure if it's a take by le to not give them attention, yet if the media felt it a "hungry story" i'm sure it'd be out anyway.


thank you for the article link. my question is the 3 men that police have zeroed in on, did all 3 mens' phone records show up on all the girls' phones and email or just some or one of the girls?

would it be possible that these 3 men killed together? or that really only 1 of the 3 is a real possible interest? then there is always the case that they were only just clients.

human trafficking has become a very big problem here in the states, even in our local paper there was several articles involving either stings, or different busts. one man was caught driving a van with underage girls for human trafficking. some weren't over here legally, regardless the case human trafficking has to be stopped.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the response, chemcopout. Do you live on LI too? In my experience, it's not only the media that's been quiet, people are just not really talking about this case around here. I've asked a few SCPD officers I know and maybe it's because they don't work in homicide, or because they've been told to keep quiet, but they both said they don't know much of anything above and beyond what's been printed in papers (could very well be what they were told to say, though). Maybe I watch too much tv but I feel like the presence of serial killer in an area like this should be the talk of all the SC precincts.

That article was one of the few that mentioned that they had three men they were looking at based on overlap in the victim's phone records. The details have been REALLY scarce, which seems to be a common theme in this investigation (and as I've said before, I truly hope that's for a good reason and not just because they truly don't have any substantial leads).

I've thought a lot about more than one person being involved in these murders but I think that if that turns out to be the case, it's more likely that the killer got help with disposal, as was the case with Robert Shulman, another LI serial killer of prostitutes. His brother helped him with the disposal. It seems like actual killing would be a personal thing for this guy, IMO. My gut is telling me this guy worked 100% alone though. I'm just hypothesizing, it would help to know the cause of death but apparently mum's the word once again.

Don't get me wrong, if the lack of coverage on the case is the result of an investigative tactic, I support that completely. I just think that in this day and age with the internet, something more would have been leaked by now and I hope it's not a sign that they truly do not have much information.

I hope this case doesn't go the way of the similar AC murders. All of these families deserve justice and answers. Maybe they really are looking for the same perp (though, once again, my gut is telling me they're not directly related- could be a copycat though).
 
I think he's unmarried, maybe has a live in girlfriend
He's organized and meticulous
He knows his way around
He lives in the oppisite direction of his dump sight
He is not a regular john
He may have met these girls somewhere else
He has a private place and does not kill in motel rooms.



I have no explanation for why I think this....it's just a feeling I get.
 
svpernin said:
Thanks for the response, chemcopout. Do you live on LI too? In my experience, it's not only the media that's been quiet, people are just not really talking about this case around here. I've asked a few SCPD officers I know and maybe it's because they don't work in homicide, or because they've been told to keep quiet, but they both said they don't know much of anything above and beyond what's been printed in papers (could very well be what they were told to say, though). Maybe I watch too much tv but I feel like the presence of serial killer in an area like this should be the talk of all the SC precincts.

That article was one of the few that mentioned that they had three men they were looking at based on overlap in the victim's phone records. The details have been REALLY scarce, which seems to be a common theme in this investigation (and as I've said before, I truly hope that's for a good reason and not just because they truly don't have any substantial leads).

I've thought a lot about more than one person being involved in these murders but I think that if that turns out to be the case, it's more likely that the killer got help with disposal, as was the case with Robert Shulman, another LI serial killer of prostitutes. His brother helped him with the disposal. It seems like actual killing would be a personal thing for this guy, IMO. My gut is telling me this guy worked 100% alone though. I'm just hypothesizing, it would help to know the cause of death but apparently mum's the word once again.

Don't get me wrong, if the lack of coverage on the case is the result of an investigative tactic, I support that completely. I just think that in this day and age with the internet, something more would have been leaked by now and I hope it's not a sign that they truly do not have much information.

I hope this case doesn't go the way of the similar AC murders. All of these families deserve justice and answers. Maybe they really are looking for the same perp (though, once again, my gut is telling me they're not directly related- could be a copycat though).
Click to expand...

your welcome =)
i live in the tri state, probably a couple hours away from long island if that. depends on traffic lol.

as for le it's possible that they really don't have anything hardly to go on about these cases, or maybe they are holding their cards tight to their chest. it's really no way to no unless you are inside the investigation.

why the media isn't all over this case is beyond me. the only thing i can think of is that they want what sells, and people have gotten desensitized to serial killers unless they have a prolific body count.

you mention locals aren't even talking about the case, which is odd, as you'd think it would be talk of the town. sometimes i wonder if it's due to the victims or just people are so desensitized... either way you'd think it would be a hot topic

for some reason i thought the girls cod was strangulation, however i have no idea where i heard that. i could have dreamt it for all i remember. so that's my guess i guess.
 
Tugela said:
Those are the extreme cases though, most women who work in prostitution don't do anything close to those numbers, certainly no escort would. 20 clients a day would probably be a situation in which the woman was physically being held and definitely would be the very low end of the industry.

Numbers like that are trotted out by activists to shock and make their case that something should be done, but they do not reflect the norm. Most women engaged in prostitution do so because they choose to (and leave when they choose to). They might preferr not to, but that isn't the same thing. The usual reason for getting into it is because they have few or no options in their life, and it seems like an easy way to solve that problem or for getting a better life to them. Society might not agree with their reasons and in time they often come to regret it, but that still doesn't change the fact that they chose to do it. Excercising poor judgement doesnt make you a victim.

As far as enforcing any law is concerned, LE would still have to prove their case, which means that in the absence of a complaint or some sort of sting (such as elicting solicitation) they can't do anything about it. In Taylor's situation he got dinged because the girl was a bit underage, if she had been older there would have been no case. So, in situations where a girl is being held against her will, or smuggled illegally into the country, authorities can do something, but not really otherwise.

Up here in Canada prostitution itself is not illegal, but some activities associated with it are (such as solicitation, running a brothel, pimping). So the escorts are largely left alone by LE, if they fall foul of any regulation it more likely would be city business licensing requirements - but I don't think that happens too often. I don't know what the situation in the US is like, probably for practical purposes it is largely the same thing. So the women in this particular case could freely ply their trade largely below LE radar because of how everything is done. And that need for doing everything in secret and under the radar is also what placed them in harms way. Something to think about.
Click to expand...

tugela, these aren't extreme cases, these are local cases to me and i live in normal suburbia.

it's possible you live in a place where human trafficking isn't so prominent, if so you are lucky.

this area used to not have these problems, now they seem abundant.

while i don't agree with a lot of what you've said about women choosing prostitution (some do, some are forced into it)

in taylor's case the girl he used was part of a prostitution ring as the article stated.
 
They are still extreme cases, the vast majority of prostitutes don't experience that. The cases that make the news make the news precisely because they ARE extreme, you don't hear about the others.

Btw, that first link you provided to support your argument reported LE as saying this: "Noble said investigators didn't find any evidence the women working as prostitutes were victims of human trafficking. ".
 
chemcopout said:
your welcome =)
i live in the tri state, probably a couple hours away from long island if that. depends on traffic lol.

as for le it's possible that they really don't have anything hardly to go on about these cases, or maybe they are holding their cards tight to their chest. it's really no way to no unless you are inside the investigation.

why the media isn't all over this case is beyond me. the only thing i can think of is that they want what sells, and people have gotten desensitized to serial killers unless they have a prolific body count.

you mention locals aren't even talking about the case, which is odd, as you'd think it would be talk of the town. sometimes i wonder if it's due to the victims or just people are so desensitized... either way you'd think it would be a hot topic

for some reason i thought the girls cod was strangulation, however i have no idea where i heard that. i could have dreamt it for all i remember. so that's my guess i guess.
Click to expand...

Although it's a reasonable assumption that the women were strangled, I'm fairly certain that the COD hasn't been officially released to the public. Let me know if you have a source for that.

I may have more interest in this case than most people I've spoken to on LI. This is for several reasons. First, I have my master's in psychology and I am drawn to the human behaviorism aspect of it, also the bodies were dumped relatively close to my home (20 miles or so) and I'm a female within the age range of the victims so it all feels very personal. Although these women led risky lifestyles, they were mothers, sister, aunts, and daughters with hopes and dreams. They likely fell victim to addiction and/or the wrong people telling them escorting is an easy way to make fast money long before they met the killer. It's a tragedy in every sense of the word and I wish there was more we could do to find this guy and bring him to justice.

Several ignorant locals I've spoken to have said things along the lines of "if you're not a prostitute, you have nothing to worry about." People need to understand that serial killers can and do escalate. They may start off by killing prostitutes because these vulnerable women are seen as easy prey and it often takes longer for them to be reported missing. But once the killer is comfortable (or even bored) with that vicitimology, he may move on more risky behaviors such as abducting women off the streets or out of their homes. The capabilities of this individual should not be underestimated. We know he has been taking lives since at least 2007.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling post. This topic both facinates and upsets me greatly.
 
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