Identified! NY - Mount Vernon, WhtFem 51UFNY, 18-25, Left Near Junkyard, Feb'88 - Veronica Wiederhold

[Roselvr]

Sent George a message on his website to give him Cathleen's & MV Jane's NamUs profiles as well as invited him to post with us.

 

[carbuff]

Personally not seeing it. Her eyebrows & face give me nightmares. My gut has always said she's NY/NJ local. I swear I met her

I've been taking art classes recently and realized she reminds me of the Mexican artist Frida Kahlo, who was famous for her eyebrows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frida_Kahlo#/media/File:Frida_Kahlo,_by_Guillermo_Kahlo.jpg

So maybe an art student?

 

[Al Ka]

I've been taking art classes recently and realized she reminds me of the Mexican artist Frida Kahlo, who was famous for her eyebrows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frida_Kahlo#/media/File:Frida_Kahlo,_by_Guillermo_Kahlo.jpg

So maybe an art student?

Remarkable how Frida's eyebrows are not just bushy but also so close together, which I think is quite rare. From all the missing persons I have seen only one had such close eyebrows, but of course all other details did not match with our UID.

Hmm what's the connection to art? (apart from Frida's bushy brows :thinking: )

I really wish George would join or replied to Roselvr.

 

[Roselvr]

Remarkable how Frida's eyebrows are not just bushy but also so close together, which I think is quite rare. From all the missing persons I have seen only one had such close eyebrows, but of course all other details did not match with our UID.

Hmm what's the connection to art? (apart from Frida's bushy brows :thinking: )

I really wish George would join or replied to Roselvr.

He emailed me yesterday; I have to reply to him; also have to ask if I can share what he said. He does believe that MV Janes DNA sample was tainted & is bad

 

[Al Ka]

I don't mind if some information can't be shared publicly for obvious reasons, however it would be good if we got some pointers which way we can assist them or help them to identify her. I am not sure if I am imagining that she was exhumed? I have reread whole thread again and I can't find that information. I have noticed in previous posts though that Carlk have communicated with some detective of this case as well, perhaps the same one?

They still do have her dentals and fingerprints so there is some hope.

 

[Al Ka]

Hmm what's the connection to art? (apart from Frida's bushy brows :thinking: )

Carbuff, sorry, I think my comment came across different way that I intended to. Its just the idea made my smile .

and Roselvr, I have not mention the most important, thank you for reaching out to authorities and all the extra work!

 

[Roselvr]

Sorry for all of the edits to both my posts... Have to run back out

I still have to reply to him more. My daughter that does not drive is taking summer college classes; I have my 21 month old grandson. Add to that I am very disabled from a failed lumbar fusion where they fused L5S1 to my Sacrum. The metal & rods are very painful.

As George says on the blog; he feels she is Cathleen & did not come up as a match because the sample was tainted. I had suggested he contact Lori Bruski to see if NamUs can help with getting her exhumed to get a fresh sample.

I do wonder if Cathleen has the large mole/ birthmark like our NamUs UP # 10229. She could be matched that way like MI - Paulette Jaster - Other distinctive physical characteristics - freckles on face under eyes , large birth mark on right front side of neck, just above the shoulder.

I updated Cathleen's WS thread to reflect what's going on
FL - Cathleen Marie Martin, 28, Fort Lauderdale, 13 March 1987

Quoting George -

I’ve been obsessed with this case since it was assigned to me in 2003. I discovered DNA that had been preserved under her fingernails in 2004, 16 years after the fact, that had been secured at the Medical Examiners Office. As a result, a suspect was developed in 2010, 3 months after I retired but nothing was done to close this case. Further, through my investigation, I believe that Jane Doe is Cathleen Martin who went missing in Cape May NJ in mid 1987. Cathleen’s family and husband, John Martin, also believes Jane Doe to be Cathleen and yet and nothing further after I retired has been done. For those interested, please read the article that Adriana posted above (thank you so much Adriana)and anyone with any info please free to contact me via info@majorcaseinvestigations.com or through my website http://www.majorcaseinvestigations.com.

2Cute thank you for the inquiry. Cathleen’s family has and is willing to provide additional DNA samples to be tested as Exemplars with Jane Doe. However; considering certain government red tape bureaucracies, The Weschester County Forensics Lab will not forward Genome pro-filer / co-filer data on Jane Doe to be tested by an independent lab nor will they do it themselves. They basically looked to avoid court testimony, considering the level of contamination in the way it was collected. Remember the DNA was collected in 1988 when technology didn’t exists. And therefore, they don’t want to be put in the hot seat as no labs do. The only hope is for an independent lab to compare the samples and offer an opinion. 8 out of 13 DNA allels match to blood relatives which suggests a strong family relationship. Now we need for an expert to explain the reason as to why the other allels didn’t spike, which the answer is simply due to a mixture / contamination. Thanks for your input and interest.

 

[Roselvr]

I emailed George while I was taking my daughter to class. I asked if Cathleen's family had more photos of her and if so; she could be ruled in/out by using the freckles/ birth mark. I gave him this article; told him he can google to get more. I looked for photos of Cathleen but haven't found any of use; they're pretty small. Also the eyebrow pattern should be of help too

Three freckles helped Texas officials identify dead woman as long-missing Davison woman By Ron Fonger | rfonger1@mlive.com on January 30, 2014 at 4:00 PM, updated January 30, 2014 at 4:05 PM

DAVISON, MI -- Working with no DNA or dental X-rays and an unsolved mystery more than 30 years old, forensic scientists in Texas used the common freckle to help identify a 1980 hit-and-run victim as Paulette Jaster, a woman who disappeared from Davison in 1979.

"People get freckles and freckles sometimes fade (but) we were able to track three *... two on the left cheek and one near the right eye" in making the identification, said Dr.*Sharon M. Derrick, a forensic anthropologist with the Harris County (Texas) Medical Examiner's Office.

Harris County on Wednesday, Jan. 29, identified the Jane Doe accident victim as Jaster.

"This was one of those cases we really didn't have anything to go on," Derrick said of the case of Jaster, who died in a hit-and-run, pedestrian accident in Houston on March 28, 1980.

Not only did the woman in the accident have no identification, her family and those who knew her were some 1,300 miles away, unaware of her whereabouts.

Derrick said identifications are typically made with fingerprints, but in this case, none were on file for Jaster.

And although there were dental records to compare with autopsy reports, there were no dental X-rays to compare.

Finally, investigators had DNA samples from Jaster's family members, but DNA wasn't collected for the accident victim when she was buried in Texas at county expense.

Derrick said the ability of Jaster's sisters to identified the woman as their sibling helped with the identification as well as consistencies in dental records, matching freckles and the same hairline pattern.

 

[CarlK90245]

I got ahold of two more pm photos of MVJD. One is quarter-view color, and the other is B&W side. I don't have permission to post them in public, so I cannot post them here.

The color photo shows her hair dry. The background is blacked out, but I am guessing that It was probably taken at the crime scene. Her dry hair appears much more blonde and coarse than it does in the morgue photo (in which her hair is wet). Also, her chin looks less pointy than it does in the morgue photo.

I did a revision to my previous recon. My previous version depicted her with more of an elegant look than was probably the case.

I think this is probably closer to what she really looked like.

 

[rcoope23]

I think Frances Crownover bears a strong resemblance to the deceased. She is slightly over the age range but all other stats match.

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/24020/16/

Charley Project has a close up of her.
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/crownover_francis.html

 

[Houston Mom]

I think Frances Crownover bears a strong resemblance to the deceased. She is slightly over the age range but all other stats match.

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/24020/16/

Charley Project has a close up of her.
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/crownover_francis.html

Dentals are in on both, eh? I'd submit rcoope23

 

[Al Ka]

I have enlarged Cathleen's pic and flipped it to other side for better comparison to recon of JD. Let's see if pic size will show as large as on my comp or size of peanut...


View attachment 75082

Shape of eyebrows seems the same to me but not as close together as JD's, maybe Cathleen's are plucked on pic, not sure... What is interesting to me though that Cathleen's upper eyelids are quite droopy (hanging?) in this photo and it seems exactly the same as on post mortem photo of JD with her eyes open in post 81. Also their shape of eyes are quite unique and seem identical to me. Of course just in my humble opinion. There is gap in time to consider though too, Cathleen went missing in March 1987, JD was found in Feb 1988.


On March 13, 1987, Cathleen Marie Martin went for a vacation to Florida.

After arriving in Florida, Martin called her sister, whom she had been living with in Cape May, and said she was extending her vacation. Martin, divorcee, who had studied accounting, had recently lost her job and had left her children in her sister’s care. She told her sister that she was going to take a ride up the East Coast with a limousine driver she met.

She was never heard from again.

She has sister and brother and 2 children, daughter and son. Her mum passed away unfortunately without closure in 2000. It seems she might have mixed Latin ancestry, Italian.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1013dfnj.html
http://www.missingin.org/reg5712/cathleen_marie_martin.htm
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/10795/20

PS: Carlk I love new recon!

ETA: yea, pics are size of peanut

 

[rcoope23]

I have submitted it to contacts for both Frances and the UID. I've already received a reply from Amy who is in charge of Frances Crownover's case and she is going to look into it I will let everyone know when I get a rule out or rule in. I have also added a side by side of Frances and Carl's reconstruction.

 

[FiveFelines]

I have enlarged Cathleen's pic and flipped it to other side for better comparison to recon of JD. Let's see if pic size will show as large as on my comp or size of peanut...


View attachment 75082View attachment 75083

Shape of eyebrows seems the same to me but not as close together as JD's, maybe Cathleen's are plucked on pic, not sure... What is interesting to me though that Cathleen's upper eyelids are quite droopy (hanging?) in this photo and it seems exactly the same as on post mortem photo of JD with her eyes open in post 81. Also their shape of eyes are quite unique and seem identical to me. Of course just in my humble opinion. There is gap in time to consider though too, Cathleen went missing in March 1987, JD was found in Feb 1988.


On March 13, 1987, Cathleen Marie Martin went for a vacation to Florida.

After arriving in Florida, Martin called her sister, whom she had been living with in Cape May, and said she was extending her vacation. Martin, divorcee, who had studied accounting, had recently lost her job and had left her children in her sister’s care. She told her sister that she was going to take a ride up the East Coast with a limousine driver she met.

She was never heard from again.

She has sister and brother and 2 children, daughter and son. Her mum passed away unfortunately without closure in 2000. It seems she might have mixed Latin ancestry, Italian.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1013dfnj.html
http://www.missingin.org/reg5712/cathleen_marie_martin.htm
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/10795/20

PS: Carlk I love new recon!

ETA: yea, pics are size of peanut

Ruled out or not, I do agree Cathleen looks similar. I wouldn't go by the eyes though. Fairly certain that the eyes in the morgue photo are Photoshopped (or similar).

 

[CarlK90245]

Here is another photo of Cathleen Martin that is not on any of her MP pages.

The two photos of MVJD bear a very strong resemblance to this photo of Cathleen, when placed side by side. From what you can see of her ear, it is very strongly similar to MVJD's right ear (which is visible in the side-view photo).

The detective is focused on a dark mole or large freckle on (not adjacent to) the right ala of MVJD's nose, and tries to make the case that it matches what he thinks is a freckle on Cathleen's right ala. The problem, IMO, is that Cathleen appears to have two blemishes or moles on her cheek, adjacent to her right ala, and no such blemishes in the photo of MVJD. There is a white spot on her ala in this photo, but it looks to me to be just to be a photographic anomaly.

 

[Al Ka]

Any updates on Cathleen or Frances Crownover?

 

[rcoope23]

No updates for Frances Crownover yet.

 

[rcoope23]

https://identifyus.org/cases/10229

Just checked on her ruleout list on Namus. Frances is now marked as ruled out.

 

[KimBeq]

Cathleen Martin also listed as ruled out

https://identifyus.org/cases/10229

 

[FiveFelines]

Cathleen Martin also listed as ruled out

https://identifyus.org/cases/10229

Hasn't she been ruled out for a while but there's some question about her DNA? See post #129.