NY NY - NY, UnsFem 18-25, UP15099, dismembered skeleton in boiler, no skull, Jul'89

[Bit of hope]

ooooh ok so i found this article and explains a bit more. Ok so the buildings fell into foreclosure in the 1970s. So that means they were definitely not being taken care of and
Then by 1989 they were made into affordable housing and the city took them over.

So we would need to find out when did people stop living in it and they stopped using the boiler for heat and hot water.
The city’s worst NYCHA site is filled with ‘rat holes,’ ‘toilet problems’


The Samuel Apartments, which opened in 1993, were developed from century-old buildings that fell into foreclosure in the 1970s.

Taylor’s unit, for example, is in a 1910 building that once had a servants room, blueprints show.

The buildings were “gut-reconstructed” into affordable housing as part of a Mayor Ed Koch-era program, according to city Board of Estimate documents from 1989

Same line of thinking...when did people stop living there officially before the government took over. If nobody was living there, no heating necessary. I tried to find more about the pré Frederick Samuel App. period, but nothing (yet) Not even an historical picture. I think they started already preparing for the renovation in 1988?

Another thought: let say the boilers were not working anymore/inactive...would it be possible to use it as some kind of oven, using wood f.i. to burn a body?

 

[Bit of hope]

OMg BitofHope i realized we both posted the same article at the same time hahaha

LOL....I already thought....what is going on

 

[Bit of hope]

Kind of confused....is this West Harlem or Upper Manhattan....I saw some pictures of what people would name the Harlem Ghetto, back in the days. Are this the images we have to keep in mind how this neighborhood looked before the "renovation"?

 

[Mrs. Badcrumble]

Now it makes me wonder if the remains were in there not too long from the discovery date. Because Iam assuming the longer they are in there the more they burn down to fragments. Ok so I guess my question would be sooo how big were these pieces… then maybe we can get some sort of time frame.

That's a really good point! I too have wondered for how long the remains could remain (pun not intended) intact enough to be 1.) discovered in the first place, and 2.) determined as human (and "most likely female"), which also makes me suspect that they where placed there in more recent time. I guess from this the timeframe would be from c. 1965 to 1989, but perhaps most likely closer to date of discovery.

ALT 682-88 ALTERATION 06/09/1988

BN 690-26 BUILDING NOTICE 00/00/1926

BN 2555-36 BUILDING NOTICE 00/00/1936

BN 282-67 BUILDING NOTICE 00/00/1967

CO 097759 (PDF) CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY 01/28/1991

CO 098163.TEMP AMEND (PDF) CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY 04/03/1991

CO 098290 (PDF) CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY 04/26/1991

CO 098420 (PDF) CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY 05/14/1991

CO 098975 (PDF) CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY 08/15/1991

CO 105182 (PDF) CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY 06/02/1994

COM 8597-44 COMPLAINTS 00/00/1944

FO 752-65 OIL BURNER APPLICATION 00/00/1965

MISC 1896-88 MISCELLANEOUS 09/27/1988

NB 1230-00* NEW BUILDING 00/00/1900

PRS 1921-58 PLUMBING REPAIR SLIP 00/00/1958

PRS 689-76 PLUMBING REPAIR SLIP 00/00/1976

SPR 1896-88 SPRINKLERS 06/09/1988

SR 4848-37 SPECIAL REPORT 00/00/1937

UB #11780 UNSAFE BUILDING 00/00/0000

UB 1244-18* UNSAFE BUILDING 00/00/1918

UB 315-22* UNSAFE BUILDING 00/00/1922

V* 3472-74BOILER DOB VIOLATION - DISMISSED 00/00/0000

V* 031893LL629104370 DOB VIOLATION - DISMISSED 03/18/1993

V* 031894LL629104370 DOB VIOLATION - DISMISSED 03/18/1994

V* 082995LL629103197 DOB VIOLATION - DISMISSED 08/29/1995

I noticed there where a few notes from 1988, so I marked them in red. The notes concerning the boiler is in green.

So, the boiler was getting old, 20+ years by mid-80s*, so it was perhaps starting to do a bit of "hiccups" i.e. showed signs of being ready to be replaced. This would be normal considering the expected lifespan of boilers, but what if this was a direct consequence of Jane Doe being thrown in? Tbh, I don't know if this would affect the boiler's condition, I'm just throwing it out here.


*Normal lifespan is usually 10-15 years, but they can get older. I know there are differences between US and European heating systems, so this may not apply correctly, but the boiler in my old house was over 40 years old(!) before being replaced, and it was still working like a clock until the very end (unlike the new boiler, ironically, which spent several years being fickle and moody as hell..). The old boiler was simply replaced because we didn't want to chance it anymore, being so old as it was, and it would be most likely it would stop working in the middle of the winter, when the need for a functioning heating system is top priority up here in the North.

 

[madamx]

I think we are going to become boiler experts

 

[madamx]

Wow!

This is an article about how easy it is to burn a body. In particular it's about the Natalie Holloway case, but is can be applied to other cases.

DPG Media Privacy Gate

Crematoria in the Netherlands use a preheated steel incinerator to burn a body, with temperatures that can rise to more than 1100°C. A modern cremator takes an hour on average to process a mortal remains. However, a wood fire is also sufficient to burn a skull.

According to forensic pathologist Frank van de Goot, it is not difficult to make a body disappear: "Burning bones is no problem at all. I once showed that on a television program. We had completely pulverized a cow's leg in two hours. A normal wood fire with a core temperature of about 800 to 900 degrees is enough. But the structure will remain intact. So you will always need an extra force to turn it into powder. So you have to stand on it for a while or something. Then he's gone."

The Netherlands Forensic Institute (NFI) confirms Van de Goot's reading. “It is quite possible to burn a skull yourself. Our forensic anthropologist says it takes about an hour to be burned at the stake. If there are fire-accelerating agents, even faster," said spokeswoman Eef Herregodts.

This confirms your story Madamx. Sorry for your dog btw.

OMg i was so tired last night I never read the whole thing.This is So interesting. I wonder if every time the boiler would turn on it’s like starting over. I am wondering if the blower would act as the pressure that could break the bones up more also.
The boiler in winter would be turning on and off much more because not only it would be turning on to heat the building but also for hot water. In the summer only for hot water.

Oh thank you . yes, Lady she was my soulmate.

 

[Mrs. Badcrumble]

I think we are going to become boiler experts

Haha, no thank you! I was the main boiler manager for the last years I was living there, and it still causes me anxiety every late Autumn

---------------------------------

Harlem Boiler Lady (HBL) has no ruleouts per NamUs, but Sandra sounds like a plausible suggestion for Jane Doe. Good find, @madamx!

For future reference, Sandra Jean Cunningham’s WS thread:
NY - Sandra Jean Cunningham, 30, New York City, 11 Aug 1977

•

Distance and timeframe made me think of Dila Palushaj from Bronx, but I’m more inclined to think that someone living in the building was involved with Jane Doe’s death, or perhaps was HBL herself?

Dila’s WS thread:
NY - NY - Dila Palushaj, 32, Bronx, 28 July 1983

•

Now here’s some food for thought: HBL was found without a skull, which the murderer might have disposed off elsewhere. So my question is, what if her skull has already been found and been assigned a Jane Doe status, or even identified?
As of 2017, HBL’s DNA was still not in, so the connection to other remains might not have been made. So what about Port Jervis Jane Doe? Distance is realistic, timeframe is “1995 or earlier“, DNA’s not available (per 2016, but that could’ve changed by now), and she has been detoothed, possibly to hinder identification.

Port Jervis Jane Doe’s WS thread:
NY - NY - Port Jervis, Wht/poss HispFem 25-50, 878UFNY, skull on roof, prominent nose, May'06

 

[madamx]

Haha, no thank you! I was the main boiler manager for the last years I was living there, and it still causes me anxiety every late Autumn

---------------------------------

Harlem Boiler Lady (HBL) has no ruleouts per NamUs, but Sandra sounds like a plausible suggestion for Jane Doe. Good find, @madamx!

For future reference, Sandra Jean Cunningham’s WS thread:
NY - Sandra Jean Cunningham, 30, New York City, 11 Aug 1977

•

Distance and timeframe made me think of Dila Palushaj from Bronx, but I’m more inclined to think that someone living in the building was involved with Jane Doe’s death, or perhaps was HBL herself?

Dila’s WS thread:
NY - NY - Dila Palushaj, 32, Bronx, 28 July 1983

•

Now here’s some food for thought: HBL was found without a skull, which the murderer might have disposed off elsewhere. So my question is, what if her skull has already been found and been assigned a Jane Doe status, or even identified?
As of 2017, HBL’s DNA was still not in, so the connection to other remains might not have been made. So what about Port Jervis Jane Doe? Distance is realistic, timeframe is “1995 or earlier“, DNA’s not available (per 2016, but that could’ve changed by now), and she has been detoothed, possibly to hinder identification.

Port Jervis Jane Doe’s WS thread:
NY - NY - Port Jervis, Wht/poss HispFem 25-50, 878UFNY, skull on roof, prominent nose, May'06

Omg your cracking me up.. Boiler anxiety ha!

oh Port Jervis skull Yes!..good call.. omg speaking of skulls any you mentioned Bronx and Dila.. wasn’t there an old skull of a woman that was found by the botanical gardens at some point? I remember something like that.

I wonder like you said if the skull was already found and identified but there was no body.
Omg now you have me thinking of skulls.

oh wasn’t there


And this lady also missing from zip code 10040.
The only thing is her missing date puts her when all these applications were being filed . So I don’t know if at that point they had tenants and if boiler was even working or if it was foreclosed.. if not.. she might work.. she did not go missing so far either.

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)


MISSING
Missing Person / NamUs #MP79290Francia Altagracia Pena, Female, Hispanic / Latino
Date of Last ContactAugust 1, 1988
Missing FromNew York, New York

 

[Mrs. Badcrumble]

oh Port Jervis skull Yes!..good call.. omg speaking of skulls any you mentioned Bronx and Dila.. wasn’t there an old skull of a woman that was found by the botanical gardens at some point? I remember something like that.

bbm.

Yes, Bronx Jane Doe (BJD)! I tried to find her WS thread a while back, but I don't think she has any. I too wondered about her for a brief moment, but she is believe to have died the first part of the 20th century. BJD's case was resolved, but her identity is withheld. Wouldn't her identity be made public if she was a homicide victim? I'm starting to wonder if she was a medical specimen, or grave plundered by some weirdo.

Anyway, here is her DoeNetwork page:
769UFNY

and her Unidentified.wiki page:
Bronx Jane Doe (2008)

 

[carbuff]

That's a really good point! I too have wondered for how long the remains could remain (pun not intended) intact enough to be 1.) discovered in the first place, and 2.) determined as human (and "most likely female"), which also makes me suspect that they where placed there in more recent time. I guess from this the timeframe would be from c. 1965 to 1989, but perhaps most likely closer to date of discovery.

snipped by me

If somebody cut up a body and stuffed it in a boiler to cover up a murder, they might not have been able to come back to finish breaking up the bones. Or they might not have known they needed to.

If they found the pelvis, that would give a pretty clear indication of the sex.

 

[madamx]

So at Harts island so far I found
A skull 9/19/1980
2 skulls 12/12/1980
And
a Human Head 6/25/1980

iam still looking

 

[madamx]

83-Year-Old Convicted Killer Arrested in Case of Woman's Torso Found on NYC Street

This guy Harvey Marcelin used to be in Harlem. He has been convicted for murdering and dismembering women before. I wonder if this is an early victim that was never discovered. He just got busted for killing and dismembering a woman in Brooklyn this week. He is 83.


83-year-old arrested in connection to human torso found in East New York; victim identified



83-Year-Old Convicted Killer Arrested in Case of Woman's Torso Found on NYC Street

 

[madamx]

83-Year-Old Convicted Killer Arrested in Case of Woman's Torso Found on NYC Street

This guy Harvey Marcelin used to be in Harlem. He has been convicted for murdering and dismembering women before. I wonder if this is an early victim that was never discovered. He just got busted for killing and dismembering a woman in Brooklyn this week. He is 83.


83-year-old arrested in connection to human torso found in East New York; victim identified



83-Year-Old Convicted Killer Arrested in Case of Woman's Torso Found on NYC Street

He was first busted in 1963. I would love to know if he ever lived in this building or near this building. The torso of the woman he just got busted for recently, he pretty much left it in a bag up the block from where he lived and he kept her head in his apartment. Anyway when I heard about this guy. The first thing to mind came the dismembered skeleton in the boiler.
NYPD: 83-year-old convicted killer had latest victim's leg in her wheelchair

according to this video in the article
1957 Assault
1962 Booking
1963 Rape
1963 Homicide
1985 Homicide

 

[Bit of hope]

83-Year-Old Convicted Killer Arrested in Case of Woman's Torso Found on NYC Street

This guy Harvey Marcelin used to be in Harlem. He has been convicted for murdering and dismembering women before. I wonder if this is an early victim that was never discovered. He just got busted for killing and dismembering a woman in Brooklyn this week. He is 83.


83-year-old arrested in connection to human torso found in East New York; victim identified



83-Year-Old Convicted Killer Arrested in Case of Woman's Torso Found on NYC Street

Very Interesting @madamx. Good watch out.

 

[Mrs. Badcrumble]

Does anyone know what happened to her remains? Was she buried? Is she in an ME office somewhere? What is the protocol for NYC? @madamx, do you know?

 

[madamx]

Does anyone know what happened to her remains? Was she buried? Is she in an ME office somewhere? What is the protocol for NYC? @madamx, do you know?

As far as I know they all end up buried in wood boxes with numbers and some identification on Hart Island.
I can try to see if I can look on the Hart Island to find and match the dates.

 

[Bit of hope]

What an ultimate creeper. Depending on when this human remains landed in the boiler room....'they' may have done this.

 

[madamx]

Does anyone know what happened to her remains? Was she buried? Is she in an ME office somewhere? What is the protocol for NYC? @madamx, do you know?

Ok Iam stumped.. I looked through the unknowns and found nothing that matched the date or that mentioned bones skeleton or anything like that. Now I don’t know where these remains could be.


The Hart Island Project.

 

[Mrs. Badcrumble]

Harlem Boiler Lady's NamUs was recently updated, but I can't see exactly what was updated.
Still no (visible) exclusions, though.

 

[madamx]

Bumping for the lady in the boiler