GUILTY NY - Phoenix & Luna Rodriguez, 1, twins, die in hot car, Bronx, 26 July 2019 *No jail*

Right.

Why I said "personally I don't think." It's an opinion.

Hmm. I think a remorseless sociopath should absolutely be treated differently than an anguished and sincerely remorseful person. It tells us a lot about what played a part or didn't in what happened and the propensity of the person to endanger another in the future. Don't you think?
 
One of the reasons I posted so little on the Cooper Harris case was, it seemed to me, that these cases bring out the worst in us.

If my child, died due to an uncharacteristic memory lapse , a fatal memory lapse, there would be nothing the justice system could do to me, that would be more punitive than the personal hell I would sentence myself to.

I can't wrap my mind around the mentality of those who feel a "pile on" is a good idea, in these situations.

I mean, have we no heart? Have we no soul? is compassion not trending right now? WHAT more do you want from this man and his family?

Why, on earth, do we seek vengence when, the ultimate pain has been had?

These are not "murderers". This is not Ted Bundy here. What do you think these toddlers would want to have happen to dad?

I was relieved that Bodie Miller and his wife were able to grieve that gorgeous baby without secondary trauma from the legal system. I hope the same thing happen for this man and his family

So, I think you are being a little dramatic about what is happening here. (Sorry.) No one is calling for this man's head on a stake.

I personally believe that when a child dies in a hot vehicle, the parent should be held responsible. What that looks like is up to the law enforcement and criminal agencies involved. That does not mean I want them thrown away forever. I don't want vengeance. I want our justice system to work. I don't want to throw away the justice process, because he is heartbroken. Wanting due course within our system, is not piling on. It's expecting the system we live in to do it's job. That is not unfair. That is just.

I don't think that being anguished is a reason for law enforcement to throw their hands up and say, "OK. All done here. He hates himself. Screw our justice system. No charges."

I am not going to forget that two beautiful babies died a horrendous and preventable death, because he is feeling what this situation should make him feel.

If this happened to me, I would hope that every person here would want the justice system to do it's job. No matter how I feel.
 
I'm sure you're right but it's not a great look that a dad wracked with grief can even think about his own needs at that moment.

That early on in the grief process most people need help even eating or showering.
I guess I feel more compassionate as I'm married to someone who MUST run or bike or do something physical daily. I've seen my husband crushed with grief and the only solace he had for a very long time was jogging. I wouldn't care if it wasn't a great look to others because the exercise literally saved him (and sure did help the family during the tense time too to have him get what he needed. If he had to stay inside for appearance, the kids and I would have had a difficult time with him.)

If a jog helps him and his family through a horrendous time, I respect that.

jmo
 
Hmm. I think a remorseless sociopath should absolutely be treated differently than an anguished and sincerely remorseful person. It tells us a lot about what played a part or didn't in what happened and the propensity of the person to endanger another in the future. Don't you think?

I don't think emotional responses should absolve criminal charges. People are saying that he is anguished and should not be charged. I do not agree. I am not talking about a trail here. I am talking about him being charged.
 
We don't know the state of mind of the man who left his children in the car. After all, Chris Watts, had tears in his eyes when asking for his wife and children to come back home.

The outcome of both of these Fathers is that two innocent children are dead. I don't "know" either of these men. I do know that the children are dead.
 
Still waiting on this...

The HOT CARS Act would require the U.S. Department of Transportation to issue a final rule within two years for a reminder system to alert the drive if a child is left unattended in a vehicle. "Every year, dozens of children die when left in vehicles - one child every nine days," said Rep. Schakowsky. "These are horrible, preventable tragedies. The technology exists to prevent these deaths. You get a warning if you forget your keys in the ignition. You should get a warning if you forget your child in the back seat. The HOT CARS Act calls on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to require that new vehicles alert drivers when there's an unattended passenger. We must act quickly before more children die."
HOT CARS Act of 2016 Introduced Today

Today, U.S. Senators Richard Blumenthal (D-CT) and Al Franken (D-MN) announced the introduction of the Helping Overcome Trauma for Children Alone in Rear Seats Act (HOT CARS Act of 2017, S. 1666). This critical legislation addresses the tragic deaths of children unknowingly being left in vehicles. It requires the U.S. Department of Transportation (U.S. DOT) to issue a final rule within 2 years requiring new vehicles to be equipped with a visual and auditory alert system to remind parents to check the rear seat. The Senate bill also requires a study on retrofitting cars with reminder systems.
HOT CARS Act of 2017 Introduced Today

KidsAndCars.org commends Representatives Tim Ryan (D-OH), Jan Schakowsky (D-IL) and Peter King (R-NY) for introducing the Hot Cars Act (H.R. 3593), which will prevent tragic heatstroke deaths by ensuring all new cars are equipped with a system that detects and alerts to the presence of a child unknowingly left in a vehicle. A record number of fifty-two children died in hot cars in 2018, and more than 900 children have died in hot cars since 1990 .
Hot Cars Act of 2019 Introduced in U.S. House

Links come from https://www.kidsandcars.org/media/press-releases/

The closest I've seen to any car manufacturer taking steps is Tesla which in 2016 introduced the Cabin Overheat Protection feature.
Inside Tesla Version 8.0: release notes and screenshots
Tesla rolls out 'Dog Mode' to protect pets from hot cars while informing passersby of their safety
 
Still waiting on this...

The HOT CARS Act would require the U.S. Department of Transportation to issue a final rule within two years for a reminder system to alert the drive if a child is left unattended in a vehicle. "Every year, dozens of children die when left in vehicles - one child every nine days," said Rep. Schakowsky. "These are horrible, preventable tragedies. The technology exists to prevent these deaths. You get a warning if you forget your keys in the ignition. You should get a warning if you forget your child in the back seat. The HOT CARS Act calls on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to require that new vehicles alert drivers when there's an unattended passenger. We must act quickly before more children die."
HOT CARS Act of 2016 Introduced Today

Today, U.S. Senators Richard Blumenthal (D-CT) and Al Franken (D-MN) announced the introduction of the Helping Overcome Trauma for Children Alone in Rear Seats Act (HOT CARS Act of 2017, S. 1666). This critical legislation addresses the tragic deaths of children unknowingly being left in vehicles. It requires the U.S. Department of Transportation (U.S. DOT) to issue a final rule within 2 years requiring new vehicles to be equipped with a visual and auditory alert system to remind parents to check the rear seat. The Senate bill also requires a study on retrofitting cars with reminder systems.
HOT CARS Act of 2017 Introduced Today

KidsAndCars.org commends Representatives Tim Ryan (D-OH), Jan Schakowsky (D-IL) and Peter King (R-NY) for introducing the Hot Cars Act (H.R. 3593), which will prevent tragic heatstroke deaths by ensuring all new cars are equipped with a system that detects and alerts to the presence of a child unknowingly left in a vehicle. A record number of fifty-two children died in hot cars in 2018, and more than 900 children have died in hot cars since 1990 .
Hot Cars Act of 2019 Introduced in U.S. House

Links come from https://www.kidsandcars.org/media/press-releases/

The closest I've seen to any car manufacturer taking steps is Tesla which in 2016 introduced the Cabin Overheat Protection feature.
Inside Tesla Version 8.0: release notes and screenshots
Tesla rolls out 'Dog Mode' to protect pets from hot cars while informing passersby of their safety

I don't understand why this hasn't been passed. Though we do still need a solution for all the other vehicles. I don't think any of the cases like this that I've followed were brand new vehicles. There are some newer vehicles that have a "Rear seat reminder, look in rear seat" light that comes on near the gauges.

I'd like to see it be similar to vehicle that don't allow you to lock your keys in your car. Not allowing you to lock your vehicle and walk away if there's a child in the backseat, setting off an alarm if there is motion, there are just so many options. It just needs to be cost effective and easily added to older vehicles or come with all car seats.


Six tips to protect kids from the dangers of hot cars

Six Tips to protect kids from the dangers of hot cars

We cannot change the past; we will shape the future.

My name is Laughing, and from now on my Baby Shower Gift is the stuffed animal recommended in this article.

JMHO YMMV

It's not a specific stuffed animal, it's just any stuffed animal. I use Nutbrown Hare personally. I do all of these things even though my little dude is 4 now (happily rear facing until he outgrows it.)


This made me think. It's true, isn't it? That is an interesting observation.
We carried these children in our very bodies, could there be an unseen connection that fathers don't experience? Food for thought G.

Yes it could be that. I wonder what percentage were stay at home dads?

I think being a stay at home parent who almost always has the child might be more of a factor in why some parents don't forget. Our auto pilot includes getting kids out. I panic when I see an empty car seat because I think I forgot to BRING the child with me!


One of the reasons I posted so little on the Cooper Harris case was, it seemed to me, that these cases bring out the worst in us.

If my child, died due to an uncharacteristic memory lapse , a fatal memory lapse, there would be nothing the justice system could do to me, that would be more punitive than the personal hell I would sentence myself to.

I can't wrap my mind around the mentality of those who feel a "pile on" is a good idea, in these situations.

I mean, have we no heart? Have we no soul? is compassion not trending right now? WHAT more do you want from this man and his family?

Why, on earth, do we seek vengence when, the ultimate pain has been had?

These are not "murderers". This is not Ted Bundy here. What do you think these toddlers would want to have happen to dad?

I was relieved that Bodie Miller and his wife were able to grieve that gorgeous baby without secondary trauma from the legal system. I hope the same thing happen for this man and his family

Yes. The lack of compassion lately has been very demoralizing and difficult to see.

When you go the bar, or to have sex, or do drugs and your child dies in a hot car... I have no sympathy. Even if you "forgot" them in there.

These cases where the otherwise good parent went to work are simply different. I am not any better than this man. This could be me.

Yes, I take precautions to prevent it but that's because I was made aware of the risks. Just like I know rear facing is safer and helmets are important. Was this man aware that anyone can "forget" or did he think it could never happen to him?

We need to be expanding the AWARENESS of the issue in order to prevent it. Just like everything else. Yet, people still believe it can never happen to them. What if this man was one of those people?

It totally breaks my heart that we cannot just go back in time. If only the daycare had called when they didn't show up. If only he'd made a habit of opening the back each time he got out. If only someone had heard or seen the babies right after he got out of the car. If only... if only... if only....


I'm not sure why you're asking questions that are clearly answered in the articles that have been linked.

They don't go all day without thinking about their kids.

People don't want to consider that it's possible to do this without any intent. They don't want to read the articles and the research. They just want to judge and believe it can never happen to them.
 
Not so much because of his response, as because he did not have criminal intent. "Forgetting"is not a crime, as much as you obviously wish it was.

LE has already determined that it was multiple crimes. Crimes that he has been charged for. Criminal intent is not required in these charges. I have NEVER said I think there was criminal intent. Instead I've said the opposite, that he was negligent. Forgetting a child in a car, resulting in death is the literal definition of negligence. Whether it fits the criminal definition wherever it happens, is up to LE.

What I wish, is that this would stop happening.
 
Yes - it seems like the law could be more creative (?) when it comes to this. Yes, they have paid a massive price, but at the same time, children are dead due to carelessness. Prison doesn't seem right to me, but I do think some very strict service and community education requirements may help the parent heal and help prevent the next tragedy (though there's always another one coming, sadly).

Many parents who have lost children to preventable accidents have started foundations to raise awareness and help prevent further similar deaths. They weren't forced to do so, they simply did it.


Missing in the mountains:

The Garrett Bardsley Foundation


Improper car seat use:

Kyle David Miller Foundation


Drowning:

Levi's Legacy


Hot car:

https://www.facebook.com/rayraycavaliero/


I believe these parents save lives and raise awareness in a way nothing else can. Reading the story of another parent, LIKE YOU who has had this unimaginable tragedy occur... drives it home that it can happen to you. It is absolutely the reason that I am very aware of all of the above risks and my children are safer for it.

Perhaps this is something that could be court ordered instead of incarceration. Working towards prevention instead of punishment. Community service in order to further efforts to PREVENT hot car deaths.

It could be in the form of speaking about the tragedy, or being studied and interviewed to help understand it, or assisting in inventing the device to prevent it, or donating to the cost of it, or donating stuffed animals to send home with newborns, or donating to make the flyers to send home with newborns, or whatever other things that might be helpful.

Putting this father in prison rips apart this family and further traumatizes them, takes away an income and then puts the other child(ren) at further risk for all of the things associated with those things.

Putting this father in prison does absolutely nothing to prevent the next hot car death. Having him make a video that can be shown to new parents, explaining how this happened and how they can prevent it? That will absolutely save some lives.

Adding a "car seat buddy" stuffed animal to a newborn basket that goes home with parents might help. So from day one they get in the habit of putting that stuffed animal in the car seat when the child isn't in it and in the front seat when the child is.

Really, we need to be finding solutions instead of just judging. Because you judge until one day it's YOUR family. Then when it's your family member with the dead baby you wonder why on earth no one found a way to prevent this.

That's what I wish would happen. Everyone gets together and comes up with a way to implement all these ideas. How would we get stuffed animals sent home with newborn babies for this purpose? A safety flyer added to the newborn information? How do we get these things done?

Isn't that more productive than just thinking this could never happen to you? Isn't it better to try and prevent it from happening to anyone, ever?
 
We don't know the state of mind of the man who left his children in the car. After all, Chris Watts, had tears in his eyes when asking for his wife and children to come back home.

The outcome of both of these Fathers is that two innocent children are dead. I don't "know" either of these men. I do know that the children are dead.

Oh I "knew" Chris Watts within two seconds of seeing his duper's delight grin and fake tears.

This one, his grief looks real to me. Time will tell.
 
So, I think you are being a little dramatic about what is happening here. (Sorry.) No one is calling for this man's head on a stake.

I personally believe that when a child dies in a hot vehicle, the parent should be held responsible. What that looks like is up to the law enforcement and criminal agencies involved. That does not mean I want them thrown away forever. I don't want vengeance. I want our justice system to work. I don't want to throw away the justice process, because he is heartbroken. Wanting due course within our system, is not piling on. It's expecting the system we live in to do it's job. That is not unfair. That is just.

I don't think that being anguished is a reason for law enforcement to throw their hands up and say, "OK. All done here. He hates himself. Screw our justice system. No charges."

I am not going to forget that two beautiful babies died a horrendous and preventable death, because he is feeling what this situation should make him feel.

If this happened to me, I would hope that every person here would want the justice system to do it's job. No matter how I feel.

Do you believe that when a child dies in another way that is caused by the parents neglect or forgetfulness that the parent should be charged? For example child drowning in the backyard pool cause parent left the gate open, child being run over by parent backing out of the driveway without knowing where child was, child dying in car accident because they weren't buckled properly, child drowning in the bathtub cause parent went to get something? These all occur regularly and could easily be chargable offenses yet I never hear parents charged for them when it was truly an accident.
 
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Remorse does not absolve responsibility. Regret does not denote intent.
 
LE has already determined that it was multiple crimes. Crimes that he has been charged for. Criminal intent is not required in these charges. I have NEVER said I think there was criminal intent. Instead I've said the opposite, that he was negligent. Forgetting a child in a car, resulting in death is the literal definition of negligence. Whether it fits the criminal definition wherever it happens, is up to LE.

What I wish, is that this would stop happening.

LE has charged him with:

1. Manslaughter (2nd degree I believe) -
New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law - PEN § 125.15 | FindLaw

In order to find a person guilty of second degree manslaughter, they have to find that the person's behavior was criminally reckless. An example would be:
Defendant Jose Maldonado stole a minivan. He then traveled at high speeds, ran through red lights, and broke other traffic laws in an effort to flee from police. Ultimately he hit and killed a pedestrian. Maldonado was initially convicted of murder in the second degree based on depraved indifference. However, his conviction was later reduced to manslaughter in the second degree. The court found that Maldonado did not have the requisite intent for a murder conviction. Finding that Maldonado's actions were not intentional but reckless, the court reduced his conviction to manslaughter in the second degree. People v. Maldonado, 2014 NY Slip Op 4878 (N.Y., 2014)


A defense?

Defenses
If you are charged with manslaughter in the second degree based on reckless behavior, then a defense to the charge would be that your actions were not reckless as defined by the statute. For example, if you can show that the death occurred as a result of an accident where no recklessness was involved, then you may have a valid defense to a manslaughter in the second charge.
NY Penal Law § 125.15: Manslaughter in the second degree

2. Criminally negligent homicide -

A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person. Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.
Article 125 | NYS Penal Law | Homicide Manslaughter Abortion

Examples:

If you have ever driven your car while texting or talking on the phone, you have walked very
textdrive.jpg
close to having a catastrophic accident and the potential for being charged with Criminally Negligent Homicide.
Other instances of Criminally Negligent Homicide occur in situations involving children who die as a result of a parent’s neglect, or circumstances where a reasonable person would recognize the danger to the victim. Killings caused by this are unintentional, and are the result of criminal negligence, or recklessness.
Criminally Negligent Homicide - NY Criminal Defense

Sentencing depends in part on whether there were mitigating factors. (See above link)


3. Endangering the welfare of a child -

Section 260.10Endangering the welfare of a child

A person is guilty of endangering the welfare of a child when:

1. He or she knowingly acts in a manner likely to be injurious to the physical, mental or moral welfare of a child less than seventeen years old or directs or authorizes such child to engage in an occupation involving a substantial risk of danger to his or her life or health; or

2. Being a parent, guardian or other person legally charged with the care or custody of a child less than eighteen years old, he or she fails or refuses to exercise reasonable diligence in the control of such child to prevent him or her from becoming an "abused child," a "neglected child," a "juvenile delinquent" or a "person in need of supervision," as those terms are defined in articles ten, three and seven of the family court act.

Example: Purposefully leaving your kid alone or outside for a certain reason.
Endangering the Welfare of a Child


Definitions:

"Recklessly." A person acts recklessly with respect to a result or
to a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense when he is
aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk
that such result will occur or that such circumstance exists. The risk
must be of such nature and degree that disregard thereof constitutes a
gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person
would observe in the situation. A person who creates such a risk but is
unaware thereof solely by reason of voluntary intoxication also acts
recklessly with respect thereto.

"Criminal negligence." A person acts with criminal negligence with
respect to a result or to a circumstance described by a statute defining
an offense when he fails to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable
risk that such result will occur or that such circumstance exists. The
risk must be of such nature and degree that the failure to perceive it
constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a
reasonable person would observe in the situation.

"Knowingly." A person acts knowingly with respect to conduct or to
a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense when he is
aware that his conduct is of such nature or that such circumstance
exists.
Article 15 New York State Penal Law - Culpability | NY Laws


I'm thinking that the state won;t be able to sustain the manslaughter charge in this case because it appears he wasn't aware of what he was doing and consciously disregarded the risk. I also suspect that they won't be able to sustain child endangerment because he didn't knowingly leave his kid in a hot car, which people sometimes do. Not to kill them but because they're idiots or on something.

To me, the criminally negligent homicide charge is the one that could stick. I predict a lot of mitigating factors being at play, which our justice system allows for and possibly no time, just probation, or not much time.

However, he will lose his job with such a conviction and the family will likely devolve into poverty as a result.
 
Admittedly, I am absolutely ENRAGED that these two babies cooked to death in a hot car while on Dad's watch. It is unconscionable when any child is overlooked and left in a car or van to suffer such a long HORRIBLE death. No, I don't and won't cut ANY slack for whomever is responsible. EVER. These children had NO choice. THEY have paid the ultimate price, no one else.

Interesting that we never hear about babies being left in cold cars more than 8 hours to freeze to death.
 

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