NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #1

[rosemadderlake]

I don't think so. Back then a diary or journal would have been a way for parents to find out things you did not want them to know about. It would have had to be on ones person at all times. Not too practical.

--Same here. Did she write poetry? Write music, songs? Secret language?

 

[epiphany]

I penned a really long history LN and through some computer issues mine went off before I could post.

Having company for the holiday this weekend so I'll not be able to spend the time I would like. I'll be checking in on and off.

SL; a very tallented young woman. Pets, music and art come to mind. The love of nature and the outdoors. A girly girl and a tomboy all in one package. Beautiful smile. Shy and reserved. Well thought out replies before speaking. She would have proven to be a real proverbs 31 woman. Talents beyond expectations. Not boastful or prideful.

BBM

Without going too much O/T [off topic], can you tell me what this means concerning Sylvia's attitude/beliefs regarding a woman's/wife's role in marriage and/or a relationship relative to her husband's/male role?

 

[MMQC]

--Same here. Did she write poetry? Write music, songs? Secret language?

No, none of the above.

 

[MMQC]

BBM

Without going too much O/T [off topic], can you tell me what this means concerning Sylvia's attitude/beliefs regarding a woman's/wife's role in marriage and/or a relationship relative to her husband's/male role?

Down to earth type of woman. Traditional values and roles. Husband and wife sharing life together. No particular one boss.

Is my opinion.

 

[rosemadderlake]

To my knowledge engagement still on.

Did she love him? (in your opinion) Were the happy times, good times?

 

[Odyssey]

MMQC, I know we are bombarding you with questions... so take your time, no rush to answer mine...

Was it normal for SL and BF/F to fight? Had you ever seen any bruises or signs of violence in the relationship?

The reason I ask is because of the 'throwing the glasses against the dashboard'. I could see maybe if they were sunglasses, but it seems odd to throw prescription glasses, that you need in order to see, against a dashboard. I thought it might be an impromptu explanation for the glasses being broken. (If they were broken)

 

[rosemadderlake]

OK, here I am...Got the phone call from Admin Sat. noonish. Said they would follow up ASAP. I did not get a PM saying so but I'm thinking from these last posts that you can tell I am. SO here goes.

We were together that afternoon. Mall shopping running errands etc. Dropped her off at home so she could get ready for date with BF/F. That was the last time I saw her.

bbm- MMQC - I feel for you in this moment. -I can picture you two running errands, trying on clothes, having fun.

Do you remember what time you dropped Sylvia off?

 

[Saracen]

MMQC

Thank you for sharing your recollections with us
I know it is not easy
We really do appreciate it

I second that, it must feel like walking across a firing range, I am sure we ALL appreciate your time and courage in doing this for us..

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I did not know exact time of DATE. What I do know is that BF/F did say after movie they had fight she got out of the car and would take the bus home. I truly don't remember BF/F EVER going to parents home that night. Last time seen? To me this means last time EL saw SL. Remember who is filing PR. Not BF/F.

BBM: Interesting ... it never occurred to me that this part could have happened another way. I think we need to hear from ASWDeerHunter as to how the bit about the BF/F coming to the house after the fight became part of the record. I wonder, for example, if anyone else was home that night at SL's residence. Until ASWDeerHunter clarifies this, it sounds like one possibility is that EL learned about the fight from you, rather than from the BF/F. I know you are saying that you weren't there, so it still could have happened that the BF/F did show up at the house, but from the way you are describing your relationship with EL, and your involvement in the search, it sounds like she would have told you this -- and that EL would have known more if he had. Sometimes something can become part of an oral history of an event because of an assumption someone makes somewhere along the way. Looking back at post 1 of this thread (the same "circumstances" that also appear on some of the "missing" sites, like NamUs), I see it only says "he returned," not where he returned to. So it's ASWDeerHunter who we need to help with this. Just thinking aloud ... thanks for sharing your recollections.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

No just more for his alibi. The hurt BF/F, woe is me. I've been wronged!
As you can tell I am not feeling HIS hurt at all. It just never added up and it still does not add up.

Thank you. Re the part BBM, no wonder we're also having trouble with things adding up, as you say. It didn't even add up to you at the time.

BTW, the more you share, the more it feels like we are looking into a deep, terrifying darkness where SL's disappearance is concerned. Even secondhand, it makes me a little ill to think about what that must be like for you and her family, who knew her so well. I do hope this process brings some light.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I can try to clear this up. I worked for the Worlds Largest Dept. store as an assistant buyer '79-84. Another person working in same store also lived on SI. I had the occasion to rent a car for business travel this particular day and offered fellow Staten Islander a ride home instead of X bus. As it tured out we got stuck in traffic. We started making small talk. Where grow up? Where did you go to School? etc. Turned out his cousin was a friend of mine in HS. He asked me if best friends. I said no, good friends. I then said my Best Friend disappeared in '75. Then I went on to speculate on what "I" thought happened to her. To this point NO NAMES were mentioned. He turned to me and said right into my face BF/F's name. I froze. I had just admitted to him what I thought happened to SL. He then said his Brother had a Band and that BF/F played drums in brother's band and played at his wedding. He then said no so about ring. That BF/F had ring. NOW I am shaking as WHO REALLY WAS BF/F. What he "connected" would I be next? I went home told my husband what had happened and of course i was told that I ran off my mouth AGAIN and get myself in trouble. Stay out of it. It's in the past. Husband was mad for two reasons. I gave ride to someone he did not know and I ran off my mouth. I WAS a very trusting person. Today not so. I spent a lot of time then looking over my shoulder.

When commuting to and from Manhattan I always scanned faces in hopes of seeing my friend. Never really knowing what happened. Still don't. Only speculate. My mind goes to a very dark place when I speculate.

BBM: MMQC, across the years, you must have considered every possibility of what could have happened to SL. I know it's unpleasant, but have you ever given any weight to the possibility of anonymous foul play? For instance, since you were unaware of SL planning a breakup, what if the BF/F surprised her by breaking up with her that night (another way he could have gotten the ring) -- and left her alone at the mall in that state -- could someone cunning and charming have easily befriended her? What do you think her state of mind would have been? How vulnerable might she have been to someone preying on her? The specter of a relatively young Andre Rand still bothers me, but I suppose he's not the only one who could fit this description. I know you said she was shy. In my mind, there's a naivete that goes along with that (I grew up very shy and raised a very shy daughter) ... could she have felt so alone and despairing that someone who really seemed to care and want to help could, say, have convinced her to let him give her a ride?

 

[Jmoose]

MMQC-we know of two serial killers who lived, at least for a time, on Staten Island-particularly Andre Rand. Of course, there could be any number of "bad guys" out there, ready to prey upon a vulnerable young woman at night time. Let's suppose that BF/F actually did know she was waiting for a bus at a particular spot. I am assuming that there would still be lots of people and activity in that vicinity at that time of night-would that be correct?

 

[rosemadderlake]

No, NO! Mother woujld not help with alibi. BF/F would need to establish one for time line if foul play. And I think he set me up for that. Follow now? Much time had passed between pick up at home and driving by my parents home to tell me about fight.

As for SL's mother call LE right away? To my recollection, no. Next day not that night. After my Father and I went looking. I talked it over with MY parents about calling SL's home, did not want to worry SL's parents or raise a red flag if not warrented. I called SL home stating I needed to talk to my friend. Saying that I had an issue that I had to talk to my best friend about. No matter what time. Then after several hours passed SL's mother called my home asking WHAT HAPPENED? SL did not return home. It was then I told her about BF/F coming to my home telling me about the fight etc. I took her to the Wagner campus then in the morning and cruised around at our local haunts to see if she was there or if anyone had seen her.

Mother went later to LE to report missing. LE informed her that SL was an adult and was not considered missing until missing for more than 48 hours as I recall. Then they were to bring current photo and a list of what she was wearing etc. Then LE would contact them at their home to follow up and investigate. NOTHING followed. For a day or two. I was in contact with SL's mother about this. My parents lived next door to an ADA. I then asked my dad to come with me to ask ADA to do something. It was then someone finally contacted parents from LE. Other than the cold case Det. Savage calling me in 2010 that I never spoke to LE. They said they would follow up with all names SL's parents gave them. I called BF/F to see if SL contacted him. He was VERY RUDE to me on phone stating he had been made a sucker of he had given her a very expensive ring and she takes off, and don't call again. His mother was having a breakdown about it and not to call again.

MMQC

bbm 1: -Can you tell us any details about the call from the cold case detective in 2010?

bbm 2: You mention following up with the BF/F -from your description, he obviously sounds very upset and angry and rude. Interesting he brings up his mother - that tells me that perhaps she really liked Sylvia and was having a breakdown over the circumstances of her disappearance. --When was your last contact with the BF/F?

Do you think the ring was very expensive? To some, all diamonds are expensive. When I think expensive, it would be more than 1 carat in size...

IMO - there's definitely more than one page in the police file.

 

[rosemadderlake]

SL's father was a quiet man. Not a huggy kissy family, neither was mine. Worked hard for a living. Drove a BIG LONG car with tail fins. Avg. height. Not a tyrant or rule by fist type. More talkative after swigging back a few cold ones.

As for his feelings for future husband. I did not see or know about any confilct.

He worked for Wagner College and certain days SL and he traveled together.

To both our VI (s).

bbm: Was Sylvia's father able to obtain help and assistance of some kind through the the college in trying to locate Sylvia - through her teachers, advisors, sorority? Was the staff at the school helpful at the time?

I guess I am thinking in addition to the suspicions surrounding the BF/F, were there some additional theories and perhaps hope for her safe return based on her other possible connections at Wagner?

Some colleges have good resources and support...

 

[MMQC]

BBM

Without going too much O/T [off topic], can you tell me what this means concerning Sylvia's attitude/beliefs regarding a woman's/wife's role in marriage and/or a relationship relative to her husband's/male role?

Proverbs 31 deals with traditional rolls of a woman. The woman did it all and was totally capable of doing everything. Maybe even more toward the women movement than thought of back then. I have spent almost an entire year studying this last chapter in Proverbs. Read it some time. I have both the KJV and the NLV. If you don't read the bible read NLV first. It's more like todays language.

 

[MMQC]

Did she love him? (in your opinion) Were the happy times, good times?

As far as I knew they were happy and in love.

 

[MMQC]

MMQC, I know we are bombarding you with questions... so take your time, no rush to answer mine...

Was it normal for SL and BF/F to fight? Had you ever seen any bruises or signs of violence in the relationship?

The reason I ask is because of the 'throwing the glasses against the dashboard'. I could see maybe if they were sunglasses, but it seems odd to throw prescription glasses, that you need in order to see, against a dashboard. I thought it might be an impromptu explanation for the glasses being broken. (If they were broken)

I had never seen any signs of violence in the relationship. However she did tell me of a fight she wittnessed between BF/F and BF/F's mother in which it got physical. At that time I advised breaking off engagement If I were in her shoes.

As for throwing glasses against dashboard. I doubt it as she could not read with out them. No cheater glasses back then they were prescription. They could have possibly been knocked from her face. MOO (my opinion only)

BTW, I never knew about the glasses until reading it on WS.

 

[MMQC]

bbm- MMQC - I feel for you in this moment. -I can picture you two running errands, trying on clothes, having fun.

Do you remember what time you dropped Sylvia off?

I'm sure in enough time for her to get ready for Date. Say 4-ish?

 

[MMQC]

BBM: MMQC, across the years, you must have considered every possibility of what could have happened to SL. I know it's unpleasant, but have you ever given any weight to the possibility of anonymous foul play? For instance, since you were unaware of SL planning a breakup, what if the BF/F surprised her by breaking up with her that night (another way he could have gotten the ring) -- and left her alone at the mall in that state -- could someone cunning and charming have easily befriended her? What do you think her state of mind would have been? How vulnerable might she have been to someone preying on her? The specter of a relatively young Andre Rand still bothers me, but I suppose he's not the only one who could fit this description. I know you said she was shy. In my mind, there's a naivete that goes along with that (I grew up very shy and raised a very shy daughter) ... could she have felt so alone and despairing that someone who really seemed to care and want to help could, say, have convinced her to let him give her a ride?

About break up? It's only speculated that this happened. I can't say for sure if there was a break up.
And yes, I have speculated foul play by an unknown source. I also speculated sex traffic. She was a very attractive 22 YO with a really great shape. A real head turner. That is totally possible given that the mall would have closed at 9:30-ish and people were leaving the mall. Both shoppers and workers. Within about a 45 minute time range after mall closed it became a ghost town though. Only the activity around mall then would be the restaurants with direct to parking lot access. Giving aid to a defenceless woman crying (MOO) could be totally possible.

BUT

The way I was treated verbally over the phone by the BF/F leads me to that dark place. You love someone you don't abandon them alone in an isolated place. EVEN if you have a fight. Get back in the car and at least bring home or to friends house. MOO!

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I had never seen any signs of violence in the relationship. However she did tell me of a fight she wittnessed between BF/F and BF/F's mother in which it got physical. At that time I advised breaking off engagement If I were in her shoes.

As for throwing glasses against dashboard. I doubt it as she could not read with out them. No cheater glasses back then they were prescription. They could have possibly been knocked from her face. MOO (my opinion only)

BTW, I never knew about the glasses until reading it on WS.

BBM: Do you mean that she said the BF/F struck his own mother?