NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[Jmoose]

Bbm: -- Perhaps this was felt early on after she vanished and for reasons unknown on this thread, such as knowledge of the argument, or possible motive, he has been a suspect among his peers: professional, friends, and music connections for a long time. It would be interesting to know if that is true.

it would indeed be interesting-I wonder if we will ever know? I am longing for another puzzle piece over which to ruminate. Why won't anyone come forward with what they know? It isn't possible that Sylvia had no friends other than MMQC, who would be curious about her after 38 years-is it?

 

[Steely Dan]

I accidentally wiped out my Youtube account by canceling my Google account. The people at Google don't like you canceling your account. If you cancel your Google account they'll cancel your Youtube account!

Anyhoo, I got a new account and was finally able to upload my first video on the new account. :great:

I made it the one for Sylvia Alice Lwowski.

Please fact check for me again. I think it's right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zZTapBmNqU&feature=youtu.be

 

[nola]

I opened WS tonight as saw (for the first time) Sylvia's thread. I've been reading all night...this is such a tragic story -- I'm so upset that LE won't investigate!
You all have done such a great job of digging and bringing so many details to light about Sylvia's life and her mind set that day.
I have to say, what a great place WS is to have Sylvia's best friend speaking for her -- I see so often where WS members join because of the love they have for a victim and the passion they have to right the personal wrong.
I'm new to Sylvia's story, but I don't get the sense that she was depressed (I guess her mom used this word with LE?); but I get more that she was stressed/moody with all that was going on in her life recently (party with dad's antics, friends disapproval and the stresses involved with finishing school and beginning to plan a wedding). ANybody would be a little tightly wound given the situation. We do know that she had a fight that resulted in the braking her glasses with her BF/F that night (not clear if he offered "the glasses" first, or if when found in his car he offered "the story" about SL throwing them at the dash to explain why they were in his car broken -- but other than that there is nothing else that has any physical evidence to support what happened that night. No witnesses to her bolting at the intersection or alibi of where he was that night after she stormed off? The BF/F not returning for 5 hours is strange, and his not talking with her family after is IMO highly suspicious. Hard to trust someone whose only reaction is to avoid. Storming off didn't seem to fit what I've read about her, but hey, anybody (when stressed) can act a little outside normal. So say she did run off that night -- the first thing she would likely do is call someone to pick her up. This didn't happen. So maybe in anger and acting on impulse, Sylvia got a ride with a passerby -- a BAD guy. In 1975, I understand that labeling a young adult as a runaway for a few days (until they returned) was the logical choice, but what we know today, tells us that this is not responsible police work. Why mark the case as "Do Not Investigate"??? Something not right here. I love that her family has not stopped pursuing this with LE. LE should be ashamed of themselves for the way they have treated this family and her friends.
Does anyone know if LE has made any comparisons with her (family supplied) DNA to any unidentified Janes Does in the state? Surely, the DNA has been submitted into CODIS, right?
I saw where a JD was found in 1988 and the body was estimated to have been buried 10 to 15 year prior (1972-1978) up in Irondequoit, NY. This is more that 300 miles from SI. The BF/F could not have taken her there that same night. The artist rendering /description looks like Sylvia. The JD did not have any clothing or personal effects, so... no white sweater or green shirt, purse or brown shoes to compare. But the resemblance is strong. Here's the link to this NY Jane Doe File. See what you all think.http://www.troopers.ny.gov/Wanted_and_Missing/Unidentified/view.cfm?ID=6aa9b4ad-8e04-4ece-9f18-4c9fcb642d49

Wonder if a petition could help get her case opened?

Thanks for letting me chime in here.

 

[alliemay]

I think the lines around the mouth have a very strong resemblance, IMO. That said, I just wanted to add some other thoughts. Since we do not know where the glasses are at this moment we do not know that they were broken. The BF/F said she threw them against the dashboard but I'm not sure he elaborated that they were broken. That assumption came from the Charlie Project and GBMG looked into that statement and found it was not an actual fact. Good work by the way GBMG. If the family does not have the glasses and the police do that would mean they did investigate the BF/F and took a statement, but we do not have this knowledge of where the glasses are at this time. This would be an important bit of info. If they were broken, how bad were they broken. If the glasses had blood on them that would indicate some sort of struggle with the BF/F. If maybe only the nose piece, someone could possible do that by throwing them against something hard. I think the glasses are one of the biggest pieces of the puzzle. The ring is important also but....let's just say she did run from the car and ran into a "bad guy" who caused her demise. He sells the ring etc etc. one piece of evidence that can never be found. But the glasses, they were in the BF/F's car so there are only three places these glasses could be afterwards, the BF/F kept them, he gave them to the family, or the police have them. We have already been told that the BF/F did not return them to the family that night, did he return them after that, I don't think so or hopefully our VI would tell us that they were returned at a later date. I'm not sure how we can find out if the police have them. Another thing that still bother me, on NAMUS it says that fingerprints can be obtained elsewhere. WHERE and HOW do they have her fingerprints. If they went to her house and obtained fingerprints from things she touched that would mean they investigated more than we think. If she had been arrested for something prior they would have fingerprints. Also I wonder if she ever attempted suicide before this happened.

 

[Jmoose]

I opened WS tonight as saw (for the first time) Sylvia's thread. I've been reading all night...this is such a tragic story -- I'm so upset that LE won't investigate!
You all have done such a great job of digging and bringing so many details to light about Sylvia's life and her mind set that day.
I have to say, what a great place WS is to have Sylvia's best friend speaking for her -- I see so often where WS members join because of the love they have for a victim and the passion they have to right the personal wrong.
I'm new to Sylvia's story, but I don't get the sense that she was depressed (I guess her mom used this word with LE?); but I get more that she was stressed/moody with all that was going on in her life recently (party with dad's antics, friends disapproval and the stresses involved with finishing school and beginning to plan a wedding). ANybody would be a little tightly wound given the situation. We do know that she had a fight that resulted in the braking her glasses with her BF/F that night (not clear if he offered "the glasses" first, or if when found in his car he offered "the story" about SL throwing them at the dash to explain why they were in his car broken -- but other than that there is nothing else that has any physical evidence to support what happened that night. No witnesses to her bolting at the intersection or alibi of where he was that night after she stormed off? The BF/F not returning for 5 hours is strange, and his not talking with her family after is IMO highly suspicious. Hard to trust someone whose only reaction is to avoid. Storming off didn't seem to fit what I've read about her, but hey, anybody (when stressed) can act a little outside normal. So say she did run off that night -- the first thing she would likely do is call someone to pick her up. This didn't happen. So maybe in anger and acting on impulse, Sylvia got a ride with a passerby -- a BAD guy. In 1975, I understand that labeling a young adult as a runaway for a few days (until they returned) was the logical choice, but what we know today, tells us that this is not responsible police work. Why mark the case as "Do Not Investigate"??? Something not right here. I love that her family has not stopped pursuing this with LE. LE should be ashamed of themselves for the way they have treated this family and her friends.
Does anyone know if LE has made any comparisons with her (family supplied) DNA to any unidentified Janes Does in the state? Surely, the DNA has been submitted into CODIS, right?
I saw where a JD was found in 1988 and the body was estimated to have been buried 10 to 15 year prior (1972-1978) up in Irondequoit, NY. This is more that 300 miles from SI. The BF/F could not have taken her there that same night. The artist rendering /description looks like Sylvia. The JD did not have any clothing or personal effects, so... no white sweater or green shirt, purse or brown shoes to compare. But the resemblance is strong. Here's the link to this NY Jane Doe File. See what you all think.http://www.troopers.ny.gov/Wanted_and_Missing/Unidentified/view.cfm?ID=6aa9b4ad-8e04-4ece-9f18-4c9fcb642d49

Wonder if a petition could help get her case opened?

Thanks for letting me chime in here.

Hi Nola-Thanks for joining us! Sylvia's case is so interesting, that it's hard to believe it hasn't gotten more attention, right?

I have a couple of comments-we aren't sure that the glasses were broken; we just know that they were "left behind"-and not sure in what sequence of events they were found (if BF/F offered them up, or if they were found during a search of the car). Also-the police report did not say "do not investigate", but rather-'Det. Lennon says "will not handle" ', and nobody here really knows what that signifies.

We don't know exactly what kind of investigation happened in 1975-whether the police in the 122 precinct questioned or attempted to question BF/F, and what kind of answers they may have gotten. But we do know that neither her family nor her close friend MMQC was approached by LE for more information-MMQC was asked by BF/F to go looking for her on Richmond Ave., and she felt it was an attempt to create some sort of alibi for himself, and get the responsibility for Sylvia off of his own hands. NYC's Cold Case Squad looked at Sylvia's case back in 2010, I think as a result of inquiries from Sylvia's family, but after all of this time, there really wasn't anything to investigate-there is no body, BF/F's car is long gone, and apparently LE can't make him talk to them.

Interesting Jane Doe-she was found quite a distance away, which would certainly mean that BF/F wouldn't have had time to take her to Irondequoit between 5:30 and 10ish-but what if someone else did it, while he was talking to MMQC and then the Lwowski family? Or maybe he decided to roll the dice and speak to them with Sylvia in the trunk, disposing of her AFTER? Of course, she could have dashed from the car like he said-in traffic or at a light, but nobody seemed to see it-although, because the case wasn't publicized, there could have been one or more witnesses that we don't know about. That "No Publicity" aspect is really a problem. She could have encountered Andre Rand after getting out of the car, or some other bad guy-unfortunately, because BF/F was supremely uncooperative, he can't be taken off the list of possibilities so we can move on to others- it really looks bad that he was the last person to see her, they had a fight, she supposedly committed the unlikely act of throwing her glasses, and then he refuses to help try and either find her or at least find out what happened to her. If people are suspicious, it's entirely his fault. I wonder if he lawyered up immediately, or if the rumored "connections" kept him from being investigated? Or if domestic violence wasn't as "on the radar" with regard to unmarried couples in those days? He appears to be the ONLY person who has something to add to this case-there isn't ANY evidence that she is out there living her life (no SS activity), or that she committed suicide, or that somebody else harmed her-BF/F is the only person that we are sure could answer some of the questions that we all have.

 

[Jmoose]

I think the lines around the mouth have a very strong resemblance, IMO. That said, I just wanted to add some other thoughts. Since we do not know where the glasses are at this moment we do not know that they were broken. The BF/F said she threw them against the dashboard but I'm not sure he elaborated that they were broken. That assumption came from the Charlie Project and GBMG looked into that statement and found it was not an actual fact. Good work by the way GBMG. If the family does not have the glasses and the police do that would mean they did investigate the BF/F and took a statement, but we do not have this knowledge of where the glasses are at this time. This would be an important bit of info. If they were broken, how bad were they broken. If the glasses had blood on them that would indicate some sort of struggle with the BF/F. If maybe only the nose piece, someone could possible do that by throwing them against something hard. I think the glasses are one of the biggest pieces of the puzzle. The ring is important also but....let's just say she did run from the car and ran into a "bad guy" who caused her demise. He sells the ring etc etc. one piece of evidence that can never be found. But the glasses, they were in the BF/F's car so there are only three places these glasses could be afterwards, the BF/F kept them, he gave them to the family, or the police have them. We have already been told that the BF/F did not return them to the family that night, did he return them after that, I don't think so or hopefully our VI would tell us that they were returned at a later date. I'm not sure how we can find out if the police have them. Another thing that still bother me, on NAMUS it says that fingerprints can be obtained elsewhere. WHERE and HOW do they have her fingerprints. If they went to her house and obtained fingerprints from things she touched that would mean they investigated more than we think. If she had been arrested for something prior they would have fingerprints. Also I wonder if she ever attempted suicide before this happened.

Skeet-I wonder if she would have been fingerprinted when she came here to live from Germany? I am not familiar with the protocol-maybe they did that at that time?

 

[alliemay]

Yes that is a good possibility, a passport would have a fingerprint right? Not sure since I don't own one.

 

[nola]

Skeet-I wonder if she would have been fingerprinted when she came here to live from Germany? I am not familiar with the protocol-maybe they did that at that time?

Thanks for the welcome.

I think that a visa would require fingerprinting...or, wonder if she ever worked in a restaurant/bar? My finger prints are stored with my ABC card application (Alcohol & Beverage Card) from the late 70's, early 80's.


Snipped from NY Department of Police database...

On September 11, 2001, a skull was found at a demolition site at 227 Park Avenue, East Orange, Essex County, New Jersey. Unknown date/year of death. Estimated year of birth would be off ('61-'81 compared to 1953); but age at death is 17-22. This location is about 35 minutes from Staten Island.
http://www.njsp.org/miss/ui_essex_u200003442.html


ETA: I received an e-mail back from NY State Police regarding my inquiry into their Jane Doe...

this possible match has been previously submitted and is awaiting processing of DNA samples to make a determination.

thank you for your interest.
S/Inv Kim Law, NYS ViCAP

This makes me think some sort of investigation work continues on Sylvia's case -- of course it could be that state LE initiated the comparison and not the local agency.

 

[Jmoose]

I think that a visa would require fingerprinting...or, wonder if she ever worked in a restaurant/bar? My finger prints are stored with my ABC card application (Alcohol & Beverage Card) from the late 70's, early 80's.

According to our VIs, Sylvia didn't work in a restaurant or bar

 

[Jmoose]

It just occurred to me to look at the NY State Police list of missing people, and Sylvia is not on it-does anyone have any idea why that would be?

 

[Jmoose]

I opened WS tonight as saw (for the first time) Sylvia's thread. I've been reading all night...this is such a tragic story -- I'm so upset that LE won't investigate!
You all have done such a great job of digging and bringing so many details to light about Sylvia's life and her mind set that day.
I have to say, what a great place WS is to have Sylvia's best friend speaking for her -- I see so often where WS members join because of the love they have for a victim and the passion they have to right the personal wrong.
I'm new to Sylvia's story, but I don't get the sense that she was depressed (I guess her mom used this word with LE?); but I get more that she was stressed/moody with all that was going on in her life recently (party with dad's antics, friends disapproval and the stresses involved with finishing school and beginning to plan a wedding). ANybody would be a little tightly wound given the situation. We do know that she had a fight that resulted in the braking her glasses with her BF/F that night (not clear if he offered "the glasses" first, or if when found in his car he offered "the story" about SL throwing them at the dash to explain why they were in his car broken -- but other than that there is nothing else that has any physical evidence to support what happened that night. No witnesses to her bolting at the intersection or alibi of where he was that night after she stormed off? The BF/F not returning for 5 hours is strange, and his not talking with her family after is IMO highly suspicious. Hard to trust someone whose only reaction is to avoid. Storming off didn't seem to fit what I've read about her, but hey, anybody (when stressed) can act a little outside normal. So say she did run off that night -- the first thing she would likely do is call someone to pick her up. This didn't happen. So maybe in anger and acting on impulse, Sylvia got a ride with a passerby -- a BAD guy. In 1975, I understand that labeling a young adult as a runaway for a few days (until they returned) was the logical choice, but what we know today, tells us that this is not responsible police work. Why mark the case as "Do Not Investigate"??? Something not right here. I love that her family has not stopped pursuing this with LE. LE should be ashamed of themselves for the way they have treated this family and her friends.
Does anyone know if LE has made any comparisons with her (family supplied) DNA to any unidentified Janes Does in the state? Surely, the DNA has been submitted into CODIS, right?
I saw where a JD was found in 1988 and the body was estimated to have been buried 10 to 15 year prior (1972-1978) up in Irondequoit, NY. This is more that 300 miles from SI. The BF/F could not have taken her there that same night. The artist rendering /description looks like Sylvia. The JD did not have any clothing or personal effects, so... no white sweater or green shirt, purse or brown shoes to compare. But the resemblance is strong. Here's the link to this NY Jane Doe File. See what you all think.http://www.troopers.ny.gov/Wanted_and_Missing/Unidentified/view.cfm?ID=6aa9b4ad-8e04-4ece-9f18-4c9fcb642d49

Wonder if a petition could help get her case opened?

Thanks for letting me chime in here.

I just submitted this possible match to the NY State Police, and got a reply back stating that this match has already been submitted, and is awaiting DNA comparison-if it comes back as a match, that should take Andre Rand out of the mix because I don't believe he had a vehicle, and didn't appear to transport his victims too far away from where he was.

 

[nola]

According to our VIs, Sylvia didn't work in a restaurant or bar

Maybe German passport requires fingerprinting, not so for a US passport. But I'm pretty sure my Russian born son's VISA required fingerprinting.

 

[nola]

I just submitted this possible match to the NY State Police, and got a reply back stating that this match has already been submitted, and is awaiting DNA comparison-if it comes back as a match, that should take Andre Rand out of the mix because I don't believe he had a vehicle, and didn't appear to transport his victims too far away from where he was.

OT: I asked NY State Police for a rule out list for this Jane Doe.

 

[nola]

It just occurred to me to look at the NY State Police list of missing people, and Sylvia is not on it-does anyone have any idea why that would be?

Oversight, negligence, not enough manpower. I would bet that local LE has to enter the case into the state data base. Maybe the family could ask that at the very least this be done.

 

[Jmoose]

Oversight, negligence, not enough manpower. I would bet that local LE has to enter the case into the state data base. Maybe the family could ask that at the very least this be done.

Good idea-then it might be easier for more people to work on her comparison to unidentified people. Thank you for putting this unidentified person together with Sylvia; now, we wait for DNA comparison. It must be a close enough match for LE to go to DNA process. Wouldn't it be something if this ended up being Sylvia, being found in Irondequoit? I think that we could take suicide off the table in this case, as well as Andre Rand.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Hi Nola - Thank you for posting and finding the eerie comparison sketch to Sylvia. Where did it go? I saw the sketch in your post and now it is gone... (?)

I have to say it took me aback when I saw it. And made me so sad suddenly...

Also, your fresh eyes and impressions are very helpful. Speculation can get complicated in the swirling search for all things possible.

How long does a DNA comparison take? And I wonder who initiated it for testing, and when?

 

[rosemadderlake]

Yes that is a good possibility, a passport would have a fingerprint right? Not sure since I don't own one.

US passports don't have fingerprints. But maybe because both children were born in Germany they fingerprinted for US citizenship? I am assuming both children were born in Germany if they moved to SI in 1962.

 

[epiphany]

I remember early on looking at that Jane Doe, and thinking could be a possibility, but then I had stumbled upon this:

Unidentified White Female

Located on July 31, 1988 in Irondequoit, Monroe County, New York
Cause of death unknown, but manner of death was homicide.
The victim is believed to have been deceased between 10-30 years prior to discovery,
Complete Skeletal Remains

Estimated age: 15-20 years old (could be younger). Estimated year of birth is between 1938 and 1948.
Approximate Height and Weight: 5'1-5'4"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Not available
Dentals: Available. Significant dental restorations using gold foil at 7, 8, 9,10. Clothing: No clothing was found in the grave. Single white button found near body.

Case History
The victim was located in a shallow grave behind 130 Bay Knoll Drive, in Irondequoit, New York on July 31, 1988. She was discovered by young boy who was digging at the rear of his property. Tis is an area adjacent to Irondequoit Bay. The yard backs up to a steep hill overlooking a valley.

http://s10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/ar/t47112.htm

The Doe Network gives a different age range and estimated year of birth:

Estimated Age: 17-20 years old with an estimated birth year between 1952 and 1961.
Race: White
Gender: Female
Height: 5'1" to 5'4"

But dental restorations are indicated:

Dentals: Available. Significant dental restorations using gold foil at 7, 8, 9,10.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/122ufny.html

 

[rosemadderlake]

I remember early on looking at this Jane Doe, and thinking could be a possibility, but than stumbled upon this:

Unidentified White Female

Located on July 31, 1988 in Irondequoit, Monroe County, New York
Cause of death unknown, but manner of death was homicide.
The victim is believed to have been deceased between 10-30 years prior to discovery,
Complete Skeletal Remains

Estimated age: 15-20 years old (could be younger). Estimated year of birth is between 1938 and 1948.
Approximate Height and Weight: 5'1-5'4"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Not available
Dentals: Available. Significant dental restorations using gold foil at 7, 8, 9,10. Clothing: No clothing was found in the grave. Single white button found near body.

Case History
The victim was located in a shallow grave behind 130 Bay Knoll Drive, in Irondequoit, New York on July 31, 1988. She was discovered by young boy who was digging at the rear of his property. Tis is an area adjacent to Irondequoit Bay. The yard backs up to a steep hill overlooking a valley.

http://s10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/ar/t47112.htm

bbm: --Wow, young boy digging in the back yard... just goes to show the randomness of everything. Thanks for the link which links up to the Doe Network and the sketch. I wonder what the rest of the dental charting shows?

 

[epiphany]

Here is the same Jane Doe on NamUs...

Additional dental info: 9 fillings, etc

https://identifyus.org/cases/2607