NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

[Jmoose]

There are many unidentified remains of women in New Jersey alone-NJ State police maintain a site with a great many UIDs-I have no ide how many of these might also be included on NAMUS. I noticed that on 9/11/2001, at a demolition site in East Orange, a skull of a woman of about Sylvia's age was found-and there are more than a few sets of partial skeletal remains at other places in NJ. I always wonder if their estimated dates of death, when they're dealing with skeletal remains could be off by a number of years. Does anyone here know how they can tell length of time since death when the remains have no soft tissue present? I am thinking this could be the readon that some of these remains are still unidentified.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Thanks for your intelligent assessment, Rose. Here's where I'm landing regarding dental/medical records: I don't know when they started doing dental comparisons, but it looks like nobody thought of accessing and retaining her dental or medical records in 1975. She almost certainly had some dental care prior to her disappearance, and certainly she'd had some medical care from time to time-at least from the time when we know she was pregnant. We know that DNA testing wasn't being done in 1975-so DNA from a relative for a comparison wasn't done until around 2010. I think the police investigation was, at best, cursory, and I think her family was not at all on top of her case (lack of sophistication, lack of any kind of assistance from LE, and a feeling that you simply wouldn't hold LE's feet to the fire-they were to be allowed to work at their own pace). I don't know how long dental and medical records are typically kept in a doctor's office, but I do know from reading The Restless Sleep that there exists almost nothing held in evidence from prior to 1980, so it may be safe to say that no records or evidence belonging to Sylvia exists at this time.

She may have fallen or jumped from the place where she and Mary used to go to cool off, or she might have been buried anonymously at Hart Island, or she could have been killed and buried someplace-but how might she be identified now? Would there still be DNA present to compare with her brother's after 40 years?

Sylvia appeared to be a healthy young woman - and I am sure there were med/dental records for her. What I am not sure about is after the "No Publicity" did Sylvia's parents check in with LE over the years, over the decades? Maybe not. Maybe they felt LE was not trustworthy - A lot of people feel that way. So, were there were certain connections with LE that made this family too suspicious to hold LE's feet to the fire? Did too many decades pass before the knowledge that Sylvia's records could be important down the line to obtain them? And even now, we only have hearsay as to her possibly being pregnant as a theory. But what if she was pregnant, and it was known, and for whatever reason it just can't be said definitively. -In so many ways this family's story is untold.

Even the decision to post Sylvia's story here on Websleuths was such a tentative one. What we do know came about in a brief sharing from two people close to Sylvia, her brother, and her best girlfriend. And then, poof, gone... I know it is not because of us - even though we have speculated about everything, but because for some reason Sylvia's full story cannot be told. --At least not here. -And, not on a public forum. I can understand that - When someone disappears without a trace - who are you going to trust?

As we keep an eye out for news, for possible UID matches, it is only in blind intuition that we imagine what happened to her - she could be anywhere.

 

[rosemadderlake]

There are many unidentified remains of women in New Jersey alone-NJ State police maintain a site with a great many UIDs-I have no ide how many of these might also be included on NAMUS. I noticed that on 9/11/2001, at a demolition site in East Orange, a skull of a woman of about Sylvia's age was found-and there are more than a few sets of partial skeletal remains at other places in NJ. I always wonder if their estimated dates of death, when they're dealing with skeletal remains could be off by a number of years. Does anyone here know how they can tell length of time since death when the remains have no soft tissue present? I am thinking this could be the readon that some of these remains are still unidentified.

Bbms - I would have to go back through my notes but I believe we submitted East Orange to NamUs for possible match comparison. Wouldn't they use the same methods as archeologists to determine age and how long remains have been in the place they were found? It always amazes me when the scientists find the 2 million year old woman - how do they know that?

Yes, I wonder too about at what point is there no DNA to compare - an old fragment of bone, a scull with no teeth. Science is advanced though, but I wonder if the same kind of DNA testing used in archeology is used or even available to the many cases waiting in the backlog.

Extracting DNA from Neanderthal Bones
http://www.exploratorium.edu/evidence/lowbandwidth/INT_ancient_dna.html

 

[Jmoose]

Bbms - I would have to go back through my notes but I believe we submitted East Orange to NamUs for possible match comparison. Wouldn't they use the same methods as archeologists to determine age and how long remains have been in the place they were found? It always amazes me when the scientists find the 2 million year old woman - how do they know that?

Yes, I wonder too about at what point is there no DNA to compare - an old fragment of bone, a scull with no teeth. Science is advanced though, but I wonder if the same kind of DNA testing used in archeology is used or even available to the many cases waiting in the backlog.

Extracting DNA from Neanderthal Bones
http://www.exploratorium.edu/evidence/lowbandwidth/INT_ancient_dna.html

I believe the female skull found on 9/11/2001 was submitted, now that you mentioned it; what I meant to say (and failed), was that if you check NJSP's unidentified remains list, there are quite a few skeletal remains. I can see how forensic anthropologists can state that some skeletal remains can be from prehistoric times, but what if the remains are much more recent-can their estimate of date of death be off by something like 5 or even 10 years? I don't know enough about how this works, but I think it could be a factor in a lack of identification for some of them.

I can believe that her parents might have been reluctant to engage the police extensively, but they did go and report her disappearance almost the minute the police would take the report (24 hours since last seen). As for "no publicity", well, there does seem to be some kind of secret present-but after 40 years, what secret could possibly matter now? Why wouldn't we know after all this time? Maybe the parents had a secret, but Sylvia's brother doesn't know what it is. As we all know, there does seem to be something missing from this story that could make her case make more sense, because right now it isn't all there. And as far as I can tell, she still hasn't been declared legally dead. Is it that difficult after nobody who knows her, has seen or heard from her in 40 years? I don't know-that last thing has me scratching my head.

 

[rosemadderlake]

North American Missing Persons Network
Sylvia Alice Lwowski

http://www.nampn.org/cases/lwowski_sylvia_alice.html

I see NAMPN has added a couple of the additional pictures her brother provided last year. Glad they used the color corrected version, too.

But I also notice the circumstances are a bit more detailed than on other MP sites. It states she was last seen at 6pm. Maybe that has always been there? But the only place I recall seeing a last time seen is on the police report, not on a MP site. It also mentions her parents’ names and where she lived. (I see some of the description comes from the Staten Island Advance article)

If 6pm is the last time seen – then something is definitely missing in her story – we do not have all the pieces.

She is also classified as “endangered missing”. I think that is recent. I know missing person cases are handled so differently now, but what a shame that didn’t happen in 1975.

 

[Jmoose]

What does "endangered missing" mean? Are they saying that she was believed to have been suicidal? Or can it indicate that foul play is suspected? To me it says that the authorities may think that she didn't disappear in some accidental manner, and don't think she left to start a life elsewhere. I am a bit excited that someone is at least looking at her case-But I wish they would change "green shirt" to "green skirt", since that is what it says she was wearing when her parents saw her last (from the police report)

 

[Owutatangledweb]

Has anyone considered this UID for Sylvia. The date range is so broad that if she voluntarily disappeared, her child could have been ten years old or one of the younger ones. I didnt go as far as seeing which one of the three children was genetically tied to her. I just remember the story and thought it was worth looking at. The height and weight range seems about right.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/799ufnh.html

 

[Jmoose]

B

Has anyone considered this UID for Sylvia. The date range is so broad that if she voluntarily disappeared, her child could have been ten years old or one of the younger ones. I didnt go as far as seeing which one of the three children was genetically tied to her. I just remember the story and thought it was worth looking at. The height and weight range seems about right.

Which UID? There's no link

 

[Owutatangledweb]

B

Which UID? There's no link

Sorry, I edited the above post to add the links. Sometimes my links won't paste with iPad.

 

[epiphany]

Sorry, I edited the above post to add the links. Sometimes my links won't paste with iPad.

Described at link & other sites as poss mix of Native Am & Caucasian descent.

Also, at link & other sites, hair is described as curly or wavy.

Dental work noted elsewhere - multiple fillings, 3 teeth extracted

 

[rosemadderlake]

What does "endangered missing" mean? Are they saying that she was believed to have been suicidal? Or can it indicate that foul play is suspected? To me it says that the authorities may think that she didn't disappear in some accidental manner, and don't think she left to start a life elsewhere. I am a bit excited that someone is at least looking at her case-But I wish they would change "green shirt" to "green skirt", since that is what it says she was wearing when her parents saw her last (from the police report)

Bbm:

On the NAMPN site, I think the NY Police Dept. classified Sylvia as endangered missing recently. She is not classed as “long term” or “missing adult”. I think this means the CC Squad and NY State investigating agency have classed her based on their review of her case. The link below to the 40 page NY definition and procedure doc. was published (or updated) in 2012. Were the investigative procedures this cohesive or this readily available to the public in 1975? -Imo- oh hell no.

What does this mean? I think it is an important acknowledgement considering the circumstances of her case. Maybe she died at the hands of someone she knew, or maybe not. Maybe she had an accident, or a self-inflicted death. She could be alive and just not found, but (imo) she would not be classed this way if she were found by LE and wanted no contact. She can be published and investigated as an endangered missing person. I actually think it opens up some doors and resources should information come to light. Or maybe it already has.

The gal at NamUs said she hoped this would be the year Sylvia case gets resolved.



NY State Classifications of the missing and unidentified.

Endangered Missing
A person of any age who is missing under circumstances indicating that his/her physical safety may be in danger.

Other classifications

Long Term Missing Person
Any person that has remained the subject of a missing person investigation for over thirty (30) days.


Missing Adult
A person who is 18 years of age or older and whose absence is contrary to their normal patterns of behavior.


www.nychiefs.org/.../Missing_UnID_Person_Inv_Model_May2012.doc


Recommended Policy and
Procedures for Missing and
Unidentified Person
Investigations

New York State Division of Criminal Justice Services
www.criminaljustice.ny.gov/

 

[rosemadderlake]

^^^^ I'll add a caveat to my above post ^^^^ I get ahead of myself and forget to check which agencies are "official" sometimes. When we see Sylvia classed as endangered missing on NamUs or the NY State websites - that would validate it came directly from law enforcement. -Wish we knew...

 

[Jmoose]

Why would nampn refer to Sylvia as "endangered missing"? It isn't reported that way on the other sites like Namus? I hate when one site or another takes these kinds of liberties. Suddenly it doesn't seem like anything has changed re: her status; it seems more like someone at Nampn decided she was "endangered missing", without any official authorization.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Why would nampn refer to Sylvia as "endangered missing"? It isn't reported that way on the other sites like Namus? I hate when one site or another takes these kinds of liberties. Suddenly it doesn't seem like anything has changed re: her status; it seems more like someone at Nampn decided she was "endangered missing", without any official authorization.

Bbm: Yes. We comb and search for updates, news, more info, and well I took the bait. I still think this change on NAMPN website is recent because of the updated photos used... But, you are right, Jmoose - unless they know something "official" that we don't, this is an individuals interpretation.

I honestly thought new information had come to light but the fact remains Sylvia's MP status is not classed on the 1975 MP police report, or on NamUs. In 1975, there must have been some factors in the initial exchanges between LE and all parties involved, the fact that she is categorized as depressed, no publicity desired, no prior trouble with her BF/F, adult with free will, etc., that made her a low priority MP. What would have changed that? Sad as this is, I don't see how LE could press it without more information, or circumstances leading up to disappearance, that would enable them to class her as endangered missing, publicize her, and search for her in those critical first few days.

 

[Jmoose]

Then I took the bait, too!

I understand that all of the factors involved in September 1975 were like the perfect storm, leading to a breakdown of what we consider standard operating procedure-because of this, in a way, it makes sense that LE didn't rush to get statements. But what about 2010-when the CC squad or whoever was in charge of the case then, only wanted to speak to her friend if she came to NYC while her husband was dying of cancer and needed her there? There ought to have been some accommodation for her situation, and yet, there didn't seem to be any interest. Personally, I think that was because the detectives, being experienced in these things, knew that after 35 years, there wasn't anything that MMQC could say that would push the investigation along. After all, if LE ever initially retained the glasses Sylvia threw against the dashboard, the odds were that they didn't still have them (from The Restless Sleep-very few pieces of evidence from prior to 1980 still existed in the possession of NYPD). There is likely no existing evidence of what happened to Sylvia, especially since LE hasn't found her or any of her possessions.

Rose-do you recall when anyone first heard from CC that Sylvia tossed her glasses? I know we've tossed this back and forth-was it him telling Mr and Mrs Lwowski, or did CC say it to MMQC? I think we considered this as evidence that he spoke to LE, but I don't recall. It is less signficant if he merely said it to MMQC or Sylvia's family, because he didn't have to mention the glasses at all-so it is more likely to be true.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Then I took the bait, too!

I understand that all of the factors involved in September 1975 were like the perfect storm, leading to a breakdown of what we consider standard operating procedure-because of this, in a way, it makes sense that LE didn't rush to get statements. But what about 2010-when the CC squad or whoever was in charge of the case then, only wanted to speak to her friend if she came to NYC while her husband was dying of cancer and needed her there? There ought to have been some accommodation for her situation, and yet, there didn't seem to be any interest. Personally, I think that was because the detectives, being experienced in these things, knew that after 35 years, there wasn't anything that MMQC could say that would push the investigation along. After all, if LE ever initially retained the glasses Sylvia threw against the dashboard, the odds were that they didn't still have them (from The Restless Sleep-very few pieces of evidence from prior to 1980 still existed in the possession of NYPD). There is likely no existing evidence of what happened to Sylvia, especially since LE hasn't found her or any of her possessions.

Rose-do you recall when anyone first heard from CC that Sylvia tossed her glasses? I know we've tossed this back and forth-was it him telling Mr and Mrs Lwowski, or did CC say it to MMQC? I think we considered this as evidence that he spoke to LE, but I don't recall. It is less signficant if he merely said it to MMQC or Sylvia's family, because he didn't have to mention the glasses at all-so it is more likely to be true.

Bbm: agreed. Besides, I am sure if info came to light to either Sylvia’s family or friends, they would have shared it with LE to move investigation forward.

No mention of glasses on police report. Just says “Person described - engaged and fight with fiancé”. Maybe that piece of the story was on Page 2 of PR (if there is one), or came to light in 2010 with the cold case squad? For all we know they could have been sunglasses and she still had her reading glasses with her when she left the car. Brother said glasses were not returned to family.

 

[Jmoose]

Bbm: agreed. Besides, I am sure if info came to light to either Sylvia’s family or friends, they would have shared it with LE to move investigation forward.

No mention of glasses on police report. Just says “Person described - engaged and fight with fiancé”. Maybe that piece of the story was on Page 2 of PR (if there is one), or came to light in 2010 with the cold case squad? For all we know they could have been sunglasses and she still had her reading glasses with her when she left the car. Brother said glasses were not returned to family.

I hate the thought of wading through all of the posts again, but I may take a look again. Can't remember where this first came from. I don't think there was a second page to the police report, and base it on my conversation with the detective, who told me that the folder was very thin. That doesn't confirm that there wasn't a second page, but it says that might be the case, and strongly implies that not much else had been attempted, as well. In reading between the lines I am suggesting that prior to the CC squad looking at her disappearance, the police report and family contact info were the only things in the file-of course, this is only my conjecture.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I hate the thought of wading through all of the posts again, but I may take a look again. Can't remember where this first came from. I don't think there was a second page to the police report, and base it on my conversation with the detective, who told me that the folder was very thin. That doesn't confirm that there wasn't a second page, but it says that might be the case, and strongly implies that not much else had been attempted, as well. In reading between the lines I am suggesting that prior to the CC squad looking at her disappearance, the police report and family contact info were the only things in the file-of course, this is only my conjecture.

Bbm: There must be a thread or two devoted to the glasses alone! But I do remember her brother stated Sylvia's family does not have them. So, this might have been relatively a non-issue in 1975 - became more of an issue in 2010. And for all the reasons we have been over the circumstances, and how LE treated missing adult person cases, and the "Will not Handle" on the police report, and no follow up until 2010, there is probably one page in her file, and no glasses.

Maybe the CC squad was able to make some connection at Wagner which is why there is silence there, but I even wonder if they knew the details of El searching for her at the sorority after she disappeared. I am sure Sylvia's BF/F was interviewed. But her parents were not as they has passed away. So, CC squad had little to go on - especially without a body. imo.

I have seen this in other really cold cases where people are trying to put pieces together from two entirely different eras. The disappearances of the three Indiana Dunes women. Trying to ID the South Carolina Jane and Jock Does. It's really difficult, frustrating, and sad. Even though it's not particularly logical, every now and then I get hopeful though, as if the energy of wanting to know will bring about some previously not thought of direction, some kind of revelation.

What is happening in the Lyon's sisters case is shocking with the cover ups and perjury. ((((( secrets )))))
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...5da43e-3d35-11e5-b3ac-8a79bc44e5e2_story.html

 

[Jmoose]

Logically, I know that the odds are, this disappearance isn't going to be solved, but I feel like I just have to know what happened to Sylvia. Like our need to know what happened to her could completely overwhelm what could realistically be expected. And yet...look at the Lyons sisters case-and so many others that seemed impossible to bring to a conclusion by at least finding a missing person. That tells me that there's at least some hope of knowing. I think there would be less hope if some cages hadn't been rattled since 2010. That's why I still come to Sylvia's thread from time to time, and why I was excited to see that she was categorized as "endangered missing".

 

[Jmoose]

Charley Project has Sylvia categorized as "endangered missing", too. But not Namus-how do the site administrators make this decision? Namus appears to get their info from LE-why do the others play "fast and loose" with the facts?