NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

[Jmoose]

And do we know if Sylvia's fiance at the time was powerful in the community?

There are some rumors about connections that he may have, but that's all they are, and he may be just what he appears to be.

 

[Jmoose]

Has Sylvia's brother ever asked that well-known diving crew that looks for missing persons in water if they would search the swamp nearby? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there was a nearby swamp?

Also, did Sylvia have anything on her that she could ostensibly hurt herself with?

I don't think it occurred to anyone to use divers-there is no information available to us that Sylvia's brother went in this direction. He thinks he knows what happened to her, but not where she could have ended up. Any of several scenarios might be right.

We know she was said to have left her fiance's car without her glasses, but from what I understand, they were reading glasses-I assume like the ones I wear, and not from being nearsighted, so she may not have needed them for distance. If she did, in fact, leave his car in a huff, she had her handbag with her; no way of knowing what may have been in there, that she might have harmed herself with.

 

[leilarose68]

I don't think it occurred to anyone to use divers-there is no information available to us that Sylvia's brother went in this direction. He thinks he knows what happened to her, but not where she could have ended up. Any of several scenarios might be right.

We know she was said to have left her fiance's car without her glasses, but from what I understand, they were reading glasses-I assume like the ones I wear, and not from being nearsighted, so she may not have needed them for distance. If she did, in fact, leave his car in a huff, she had her handbag with her; no way of knowing what may have been in there, that she might have harmed herself with.

Has Sylvia's brother said what he thinks happened to her? I'm sorry, I'm new to this case and have read past posts but not all of them.

 

[Jmoose]

Has Sylvia's brother said what he thinks happened to her? I'm sorry, I'm new to this case and have read past posts but not all of them.

He thinks she's dead (murdered), and thinks he knows who did it-you can read between the lines re: who he thinks did it. The rest of us may have some other ideas about what could have happened. I also think she was killed, but suicide and tragic accident are also possibilities. If she committed suicide, she's hidden her body pretty well (she could be in a body of water, trapped among some debris, though). Same with some kind of tragic accident-where could she have ended up? I am not familiar with Staten Island, since I've only been there once, so I don't know if there is some kind of deep swamp someplace between where the fiance said she jumped out of the car, and her home (or wherever she was headed). Personally, I just can't imagine why her body hasn't turned up yet. This is why I think she murdered-other possibilities make it hard for one to hide themselves

 

[alliemay]

I think I watch to much Investigation ID but I was watching the series Swamp Murders and the thing that stood out in my mind with two of the stories recently had to do with woman who were walking on the road and how they accepted ride from a total stranger. Many would not try this now but in the 70's there was a lot of that innocent trust in female's. IF she did run off out of the car I could see something like that happening or even accepting a ride from someone she knew. As far as hiding the body I have read there are many places to do this in this state. I think of Sylvia's purse quite a bit. You would think that some of the contents of her purse ended up somewhere. Someone could have picked it up and not thought anything of it. The whole thing is so sad.

 

[Jmoose]

I think I watch to much Investigation ID but I was watching the series Swamp Murders and the thing that stood out in my mind with two of the stories recently had to do with woman who were walking on the road and how they accepted ride from a total stranger. Many would not try this now but in the 70's there was a lot of that innocent trust in female's. IF she did run off out of the car I could see something like that happening or even accepting a ride from someone she knew. As far as hiding the body I have read there are many places to do this in this state. I think of Sylvia's purse quite a bit. You would think that some of the contents of her purse ended up somewhere. Someone could have picked it up and not thought anything of it. The whole thing is so sad.

Skeet-I have thought the exact same things; I could easily see Sylvia getting into a car with a seemingly kind stranger, and wondered about her purse many times. Who would have put together a discarded purse and the possibility of a woman who many have been killed, especially since there was no publicity? I don't tend to think in terms of multiple "plot twists", but this easily could be what happened to Sylvia.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Yes, that her purse has not been found is maybe a huge clue in narrowing the field of possibility. –Murder or runaway, perhaps suicide, but not accident? If accident, wouldn't one or the other have shown up? Unless it was a covered up accident?

Back up thread, Sylvia’s purse came up in the context of suicide. It was speculated that if she was intent on killing herself; …‘all she had to do was ditch her purse in any sidewalk trash can’. --Yes, well Wow, what a revelation, IF that was her “intention”? Though, I think that would point toward her thinking about it long before that night. (imo)

Could she have known that there would be no publicity? -That there would be no “official” search for her? Did she act, or react in such a way that she intentionally knew how to dispose of her belongings? And never be found?

Hiring a diving team, given the terrain of Staten Island surrounded by water, bridges, and with all its internal diverse water ways would present a huge problem --where would you search without a clue? I think she would have to be running in terror to end up in a swamp by accident. Or, someone would have to know that terrain really well to dispose of a body in a swamp. Perhaps Great Kills Harbor, the Jetties, is more likely if she caught a bus home and went to the water, nearby her house? - But now, 40 years later, what are the chances that she is long gone, and out to sea?

The BF/F is the other person who is alive, and who knew Sylvia, well. I think the events of the evening suggest something passionate and spontaneous. If he didn’t kill her, did he witness, or know something? What was his view of Sylvia as her fiancé? Was she depressed in the BF/F’s opinion? –Or, unstable? Was she happy, or unhappy? Did they break up that night? He went to see her parents in person…

-If she stormed out of the car, would Sylvia have accepted a ride from a seemingly benign person, a stranger on the road? It was the 70’s. Was it a random murder? What are the chances of that? It’s possible; but maybe more possible if they were at SI Mall that she accepted a ride from an acquaintance?

ETA: Even though I wonder about the random chances, there is a known college town increase of predators at the beginning of a school year - Wagner? --Or, not hard to imagine crimes in progress at the SI Mall on a busy Saturday night, either.


--Would Sylvia run away; take no possessions, make a break from her life, her BF/F, her family, her home, her friends, her future? --And, if so, why? She wouldn’t have done it without help, or a reason… (imo)

-Still, so many unanswered questions for the beautiful Sylvia...

 

[alliemay]

I wonder what bodies of water are around the golf course?

 

[rosemadderlake]

I remember her brother mentioning he would search the golf course... Wonder if there was special significance as to why, or is it because it is in between their home and the Mall? It would be a quiet, unmonitored area wouldn't it... I see a lake on the map of La Tourette Golf Course. But there is also massive woodland surrounding the golf course which is another possibility. There is that large creek snaking around - wonder if it is tidal?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/L...0x89c24bf4b0890da9:0x749434cc23d47c26!6m1!1e1

ETA: I have all kinds of SI maps bookmarked. Geologically very interesting island. Can't believe they used SI for a landfill - even if it was supposed to be temporary. There's was lot of wetland on SI - much of it is tidal. Looks like the Mall was built on wetland, too...
http://www.fws.gov/wetlands/Documen...w-York-Valuable-Vanishing-Urban-Wildlands.pdf

 

[Jmoose]

I remember her brother mentioning he would search the golf course... Wonder if there was special significance as to why, or is it because it is in between their home and the Mall? It would be a quiet, unmonitored area wouldn't it... I see a lake on the map of La Tourette Golf Course. But there is also massive woodland surrounding the golf course which is another possibility. There is that large creek snaking around - wonder if it is tidal?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/L...0x89c24bf4b0890da9:0x749434cc23d47c26!6m1!1e1

ETA: I have all kinds of SI maps bookmarked. Geologically very interesting island. Can't believe they used SI for a landfill - even if it was supposed to be temporary. There's was lot of wetland on SI - much of it is tidal. Looks like the Mall was built on wetland, too...
http://www.fws.gov/wetlands/Documen...w-York-Valuable-Vanishing-Urban-Wildlands.pdf

Re: the brother saying he'd search the golf course-this kind of thing makes me think there is some other info here, that we haven't been (and shouldn't be) made aware of. Why the golf course of all places on or off of Staten Island? Is it because it's on the way home from the movie theatre if she began to walk? If that is true, then it may point away from the fiance, and towards another person offering her a ride home. I still consider the possibility that the movie theatre may not ever have been the destination, but who knows now?
I wonder how deep the water sources on and around the golf course might be? I guess if the bottom of the water source has a deep, boggy bottom, it may not matter how deep-and if any of it's tidal, she could be out to sea all of this time. I am still not on board with jumping off a bridge into one of the rivers, since you can't control whether or not you'll surface-and people typically resurface after a while (unless the river you jump into is tidal at that point, and the tide is on the way out when you enter. Would Sylvia have put that all together? And, like Rosemadderlake said, would she have counted on "no publicity" to cover a suicide or voluntary disappearance? For me, that's a "no"

 

[Jmoose]

The purse bothers me a little, but I rationalize that the purse could have been ditched anyplace, and if found at all, it could have been considered abandoned from a purse snatching. No publicity, so nobody would put it together. Of course, neither Sylvia, in abandoning the purse, nor an unknown killer could have counted on no publicity, so I'm betting the purse was discarded someplace where it wouldn't easily be found-or, if Sylvia left on her own, she took it with her. I doubt anyone found that handbag-it would have had id in it.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Re: the brother saying he'd search the golf course-this kind of thing makes me think there is some other info here, that we haven't been (and shouldn't be) made aware of. Why the golf course of all places on or off of Staten Island? Is it because it's on the way home from the movie theatre if she began to walk? If that is true, then it may point away from the fiance, and towards another person offering her a ride home. I still consider the possibility that the movie theatre may not ever have been the destination, but who knows now?
I wonder how deep the water sources on and around the golf course might be? I guess if the bottom of the water source has a deep, boggy bottom, it may not matter how deep-and if any of it's tidal, she could be out to sea all of this time. I am still not on board with jumping off a bridge into one of the rivers, since you can't control whether or not you'll surface-and people typically resurface after a while (unless the river you jump into is tidal at that point, and the tide is on the way out when you enter. Would Sylvia have put that all together? And, like Rosemadderlake said, would she have counted on "no publicity" to cover a suicide or voluntary disappearance? For me, that's a "no"

Bbm: There is a golf course in the town I grew up--centrally located, and it was not fenced in. - It was actually a beautiful after hours meeting place. In summer, take your shoes off, under the stars, and walk the greens in bare feet, etc... It was private and secluded, and romantic... Maybe La Tourette it is a known after hours destination?

 

[Jmoose]

It could be as simple as Sylvia's brother knowing that La Tourette was a favorite spot for his sister and her fiance. There must be some reason that he mentioned that golf course, of all possible places, to search. He could have been just throwing it out there, but to me, it seems more likely that either someone else proposed it as a possible spot where Sylvia could have been harmed, or that he knew the couple might have enjoyed hanging out there to be alone.

 

[alliemay]

I forget the name of the place now, I think we have talked about an area were kids hung out and drank. I can't remember now what the name was.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Her brother said he would search La Tourette meaning thinks she is buried there? The golf course itself is maintained all the time so what are the chances a body might have been discovered? (imo) But there are woods all around.

Was La Tourette a known hang out spot among SI kids? Was it fenced in in the 70’s? -Easy road access? It was the kids who grew up in my hometown who knew about and visited the golf course.

I think it could be a reference to a known accessible spot that might not have been monitored by LE, like the public places, parklands with closing hours after dark?

It also suggests someone would know that terrain well to hide a body there. –all imo.

ETA: Don't know if there is a more specific reason to suggest a search of La Tourette, only that it came from someone close who's had much time to perhaps search himself, and to think about where and why...

 

[alliemay]

Where was it that MMQC said they would go, was it the jetty? Where was this jetty located in relation to the golf course?

 

[rosemadderlake]

I think the jetties MMQC is referring to are the ones in Great Kills Harbor - down the street from SL's home. La Tourette is in between home and SI Mall on the east/west axis of SI. Conference House Park as I recall was mentioned as a place to go, and a place that MMQC said she looked - that is at the southern tip of SI.

 

[theforgotten]

Bumping For Sylvia..............................................................................

 

[sam spade]

Does anyone think Sylvia looks like the "No eat, no sleep" jane doe? I was looking at their noses, brows, mouth, etc and with the new photos on her Charley Project page, I think she does even more so. Let me know.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/lwowski_sylvia.html
http://doenetwork.org/cases/593ufca.html

 

[Jmoose]

Does anyone think Sylvia looks like the "No eat, no sleep" jane doe? I was looking at their noses, brows, mouth, etc and with the new photos on her Charley Project page, I think she does even more so. Let me know.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/lwowski_sylvia.html
http://doenetwork.org/cases/593ufca.html

I think this lady is both too tall, and too young to be Sylvia (although the estimates are so often wrong), and her dental work indicates that she might not be Sylvia, too, unless Sylvia's perfect teeth drastically changed between 1975 and 2006-again, this, too, is possible, but between the height and likely age differences, probably not likely. It can be really difficult to match a UID post mortem with a missing person; so often when the authorities finally make a match, you find that when they do a composite of the deceased, it doesn't really look much like the missing person did in life-and so often the estimated age, height and weight don't correctly reflect the person's true figures