NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

[GoingByMyGut]

Regarding Red, here are some refreshers:

In Thread 2, Post 841, MMQC makes it clear that EL knew more than she did about Red (BBM).

Originally Posted by skeet:
MMQC - on the night of the search, RE: Wagner College, did youor Eva suggest going onto Victory Blvd. behind Wagner College and pass by "Red"s house to see if anything looked suspicious?

Originally Posted by MMQC:
I only knew of the general area, not the exact location. Doubt that EL even knew that detail.

In Thread 2, Post 842, MMQC tells us EL knew SL and Red dated (BBM).

Originally Posted by epiphany:
Had SL's Mother ever met Red? Or had she been aware they were once dating, or that SL had been interested in him at one time?

Originally Posted by MMQC:
She knew they dated.

And in Thread 2, Post 886, MMQC tells us how long SL and Red dated and that Red met EL (BBM).

Originally Posted by GoingByMyGut:
MMQC, I can't remember if this has been asked before, so if I'm on repeat, I apologize. Do you have any idea how long they "dated" before the abortion? I have been thinking of this relationship as something along the lines of a one night stand, since I think you said earlier that the later BF/F was SL's first serious relationship ("She did have a few BF's but none serious.") And because of your comments about sexual exploration in connection with this relationship ("Not to forget. It was a time for sexual exploration.") IOW, I wasn't seeing him as the kind of boy you bring home to mother.
So in addition to wondering how long they dated, I'm curious about what they did together and how SL's mom came to know of him. Did EL meet "Red" when he picked SL up for these dates? What was it about the relationship that made you think of it as "not serious"? And do you think was it the abortion that separated them?

Originally Posted by MMQC:
It was a few months they dated if I recall. EL met every one SL dated. We both had parents that insisted that the boy come to the door to pick us up.

 

[alliemay]

I do remember MMQC saying that "Red" had picked up Sylvia from her home a few times, GBMG is much better at finding the original quotes than I am though. I sometimes wonder if "Red" and Sylvia ended their relationship and the pregnancy because it was going into the navy. I wonder how often "Red" came back home for visits? He lived behind Wagner College on Victory Blvd.

We know she was feeling the "blues" when her friends brother had children. Would it have been something she could have blocked out easily since these children lived next door? The months prior to this should hold some clue. What if she had feelings for "Red" and wasn't sure how to deal with them.

As far as violent fights with the BF/F the friend said there was none. It would appear there has been no violence from this man, that we can find, in the 38 years afterwards. He stayed living in the same area. If it were me and I was guilty and had an education to sustain myself anywhere in the United States, I think I would be skipping town so to speak. All just opinions of course.

 

[alliemay]

GBMG I love that you can find things quickly .

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Hi, all. I've been getting something out of just listening these last few days. (And I haven't had anything to contribute that hasn't been said many times before.) But I have a few thoughts now.

BBM1: Or, I wonder if the PI ran into what we have run into: That these were SL's only "close" relationships? Remember, SL even brought "Red" home. I think if there were other close GFs (I'm not counting people she hung out with in groups at school), I think her mother would have met and known about them. So whether these were marching orders or what he found, the net effect might be the same. JMO.

BBM-Did Sylvia bring "Red" home? I didn't recall-to tell the truth, I had forgotten about him entirely. Is that because he was described as a casual relationship, and therefore not a factor in Sylvia's universe at that time? I really wonder about that...Could a young woman with so few close relationships really have such a casual thing with a guy she'd been pregnant by? I realize that we're back in a circle here, but there is an answer here someplace. Does Sylvia's brother suspect the fiance for any good reason, such as prior evidence of abuse of his sister, or did he just not like him? For some people, not liking a person is enough of a reason to think they're capable of anything-but we can't look at it that way. Still, being the last person seen with someone who went missing is pretty powerful, and BF/F must have understood that he was seen in that light, guilty or not. In order to eliminate him from consideration, I would like to know that he made some kind of effort to answer some questions, or search for her-something like that. By the way, I think the "3 variations" of his story are inconsequential differences, too-probably nothing.

BBM: Well, there's no evidence of any formal search by anyone really, just a few hours of MMQC and EL making the rounds the day after SL disappeared, and EL hiring the PI to look for her. To my eye, that expectation is a little high, especially when you factor in that (a) he would have had to start or lead the search, (b) something passed between him and SL that upset him, and (c) we know very little about what he did.

As to answering Qs, I think we do have some evidence of that: The three "stories" show he spoke to the PI and LE, and his conversation with MMQC suggests LE was calling his house (at that age, I highly doubt he refused to speak to them, as that surely would have made him look suspicious). JMO. I know it's thin, but in terms of the available evidence in this case, it's considerable. Also, JMO.

 

[Jmoose]

I do remember MMQC saying that "Red" had picked up Sylvia from her home a few times, GBMG is much better at finding the original quotes than I am though. I sometimes wonder if "Red" and Sylvia ended their relationship and the pregnancy because it was going into the navy. I wonder how often "Red" came back home for visits? He lived behind Wagner College on Victory Blvd.

We know she was feeling the "blues" when her friends brother had children. Would it have been something she could have blocked out easily since these children lived next door? The months prior to this should hold some clue. What if she had feelings for "Red" and wasn't sure how to deal with them.

As far as violent fights with the BF/F the friend said there was none. It would appear there has been no violence from this man, that we can find, in the 38 years afterwards. He stayed living in the same area. If it were me and I was guilty and had an education to sustain myself anywhere in the United States, I think I would be skipping town so to speak. All just opinions of course.

I was thinking more about what the brother might know about possible abuse (that Sylvia might not even relate to MMQC-and MMQC did say, either here or in a PM that Sylvia told her BF/F hit his mother).

In trying to reconcile all of the information about the various characters here, I'm having a lot of difficulty making the relationships fit well. A Jewish girl marrying a Catholic man-no evidence that the families disapproved, but they weren't friendly, either, and his family didn't seem to care that she suddenly disappeared, other than how it affected him. Sylvia seemed to have had no relationships aside from her best friend, fiance, and "Red", who was considered a casual one. No organized search for Sylvia other than the one by EL and MMQC, as far as we know, and nobody seemed to look at BF/F as a suspect, other than ASWDH and MMQC-and that suspicion seems to be relatively recent. Why is that? Where is everyone who would or should be interested in what happened to Sylvia? Even if all of Sylvia's Wagner College friends, and those who were mutual friends of both Sylvia and BF/F were sure he was innocent, wouldn't they still want to know what happened to her? Why doesn't anybody care about her-there are other relatives, because Mr Lwowski had a bunch of siblings-in NJ, I think. I just don't get this. I actually think it's appalling that almost nobody cares at all about her.

 

[rosemadderlake]

BBM1: Or, I wonder if the PI ran into what we have run into: That these were SL's only "close" relationships? Remember, SL even brought "Red" home. I think if there were other close GFs (I'm not counting people she hung out with in groups at school), I think her mother would have met and known about them. So whether these were marching orders or what he found, the net effect might be the same. JMO.


BBM-Did Sylvia bring "Red" home? I didn't recall-to tell the truth, I had forgotten about him entirely. Is that because he was described as a casual relationship, and therefore not a factor in Sylvia's universe at that time? I really wonder about that...Could a young woman with so few close relationships really have such a casual thing with a guy she'd been pregnant by? I realize that we're back in a circle here, but there is an answer here someplace. Does Sylvia's brother suspect the fiance for any good reason, such as prior evidence of abuse of his sister, or did he just not like him? For some people, not liking a person is enough of a reason to think they're capable of anything-but we can't look at it that way. Still, being the last person seen with someone who went missing is pretty powerful, and BF/F must have understood that he was seen in that light, guilty or not. In order to eliminate him from consideration, I would like to know that he made some kind of effort to answer some questions, or search for her-something like that. By the way, I think the "3 variations" of his story are inconsequential differences, too-probably nothing.

BBM: If Sylvia was having doubts about getting married, I can easily see where her brother (especially) would go with this in the context of her disappearance. We know of no wedding date, church, plans with bridal parties. We do not know the reason the BFF was not at her pool party which preceded her disappearance by what, a week? -And she is described as having had a fight with her fiance and depressed on the PR. I think if Sylvia was having any doubts, they may not be expressed here, but it would definitely have raised my suspicious meter big time if I was her brother or best friend.

I am sure the BFF being the last "known" person to see her was not lost on him, or his family, which is why I think he may have contacted LE. One can look at this a couple of ways but if there was information that concerned her BFF he may have taken it to LE instead of her family.

 

[Jmoose]

BBM: If Sylvia was having doubts about getting married, I can easily see where her brother (especially) would go with this in the context of her disappearance. We know of no wedding date, church, plans with bridal parties. We do not know the reason the BFF was not at her pool party which preceded her disappearance by what, a week? -And she is described as having had a fight with her fiance and depressed on the PR. I think if Sylvia was having any doubts, they may not be expressed here, but it would definitely have raised my suspicious meter big time if I was her brother or best friend.

I am sure the BFF being the last "known" person to see her was not lost on him, or his family, which is why I think he may have contacted LE. One can look at this a couple of ways but if there was information that concerned her BFF he may have taken it to LE instead of her family.

I am not sure I understood part of your post, Rose-are you saying that BF/F contacted LE?

 

[alliemay]

Yes it's very frustrating that there is only a handful on the thread that care enough to comment on her. It's quite sad that no others are coming forward with anything.

Quote: "I was thinking more about what the brother might know about possible abuse (that Sylvia might not even relate to MMQC-and MMQC did say, either here or in a PM that Sylvia told her BF/F hit his mother)."

Yes I do remember reading something about that on here. As a younger brother I'm not sure how much attention would be paid to his older sister's love life, but he may know something? As far as Sylvia not telling her best friend about any violent fights, I'm not so sure Sylvia would keep these incidents from her best friend. From the posts by the friend it sounded like Sylvia would not have kept anything from her. It's sounds like she was her only friend, especially when the friend states that Sylvia had no other friends that had a vehicle. I find that very strange because they went to different collages. So I don't think the Sylvia knew all of MMQC's friends, or MMQC knew all of Sylvia's friends. Even the night Sylvia sent missing MMQC was on the front porch with her friends, I wonder if any of them knew Sylvia?

 

[rosemadderlake]

I am not sure I understood part of your post, Rose-are you saying that BF/F contacted LE?

Yes, I said that and think he may have contacted LE.

 

[Jmoose]

Yes it's very frustrating that there is only a handful on the thread that care enough to comment on her. It's quite sad that no others are coming forward with anything.

Quote: "I was thinking more about what the brother might know about possible abuse (that Sylvia might not even relate to MMQC-and MMQC did say, either here or in a PM that Sylvia told her BF/F hit his mother)."

Yes I do remember reading something about that on here. As a younger brother I'm not sure how much attention would be paid to his older sister's love life, but he may know something? As far as Sylvia not telling her best friend about any violent fights, I'm not so sure Sylvia would keep these incidents from her best friend. From the posts by the friend it sounded like Sylvia would not have kept anything from her. It's sounds like she was her only friend, especially when the friend states that Sylvia had no other friends that had a vehicle. I find that very strange because they went to different collages. So I don't think the Sylvia knew all of MMQC's friends, or MMQC knew all of Sylvia's friends. Even the night Sylvia sent missing MMQC was on the front porch with her friends, I wonder if any of them knew Sylvia?

Could such a pretty, smart girl have been so shy that she only had the few social outlets and friends that we are aware of? I understand why people wouldn't post here at Websleuths, as several of you said the other day-just wondering why nobody at all surfaced to support the Lwowski family in the aftermath of Sylvia's disappearance (at least, it appears that nobody did, based on what's been said, and left unsaid by our VIs). Even with no publicity, people knew about her disappearance, because EL and MMQC went around looking for her-and if any of the people at MMQC's house that night were friends of hers, they knew, too. Word would have gotten around, since people like to gossip, and bad news travels fast. Neighbors certainly knew, I'd bet-unless the Lwowskis never talked to their neighbors. Maybe people outwardly minded their own business more than we do now (lol), but people must have wondered, and talked amongst themselves about where she went.

 

[Jmoose]

Yes, I said that and think he may have contacted LE.

This, again, is something that I don't recall-I would certainly hope that he did, but I thought that EL and JL were the ones who did so-if he did, that would help me understand what happened that night.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Could such a pretty, smart girl have been so shy that she only had the few social outlets and friends that we are aware of? I understand why people wouldn't post here at Websleuths, as several of you said the other day-just wondering why nobody at all surfaced to support the Lwowski family in the aftermath of Sylvia's disappearance (at least, it appears that nobody did, based on what's been said, and left unsaid by our VIs). Even with no publicity, people knew about her disappearance, because EL and MMQC went around looking for her-and if any of the people at MMQC's house that night were friends of hers, they knew, too. Word would have gotten around, since people like to gossip, and bad news travels fast. Neighbors certainly knew, I'd bet-unless the Lwowskis never talked to their neighbors. Maybe people outwardly minded their own business more than we do now (lol), but people must have wondered, and talked amongst themselves about where she went.

Where is everyone who would or should be interested in what happened to Sylvia? Even if all of Sylvia's Wagner College friends, and those who were mutual friends of both Sylvia and BF/F were sure he was innocent, wouldn't they still want to know what happened to her? Why doesn't anybody care about her-there are other relatives, because Mr Lwowski had a bunch of siblings-in NJ, I think. I just don't get this. I actually think it's appalling that almost nobody cares at all about her.

BBM1: "Pretty, smart" people can be shy. I don't think IQ or looks have anything to do with being shy. I still feel, as I've said before, that yes, it's possible her circle was small. JMO

BBM2: I'm not sure it's fair to say no one cares or cared about her. We have no idea how the rest of her family feels, or how the people around her at the time felt or feel now. I don't think we are sitting at the center's of SL's universe here, or that posting on WS is the only way to show you care. People may just not have anything to say. They may feel helpless and at a loss for ideas, just like we do. If they did know something, I would hope they'd bring it to LE first. JMO

 

[Jmoose]

BBM1: "Pretty, smart" people can be shy. I don't think IQ or looks have anything to do with being shy. I still feel, as I've said before, that yes, it's possible her circle was small. JMO

BBM2: I'm not sure it's fair to say no one cares or cared about her. We have no idea how the rest of her family feels, or how the people around her at the time felt or feel now. I don't think we are sitting at the center's of SL's universe here, or that posting on WS is the only way to show you care. People may just not have anything to say. They may feel helpless and at a loss for ideas, just like we do. If they did know something, I would hope they'd bring it to LE first. JMO

Fair enough-I guess I was basing my comment more on her photo, where she had herself all put together, more in keeping with a person who is more socially confident (but what can you really tell from one photo?). And maybe basing the rest of my post on what the VIs have said regarding interest in her disappearance (MMQC's comments about the women in her sorority not seeming interested when EL and MMQC came to the sorority house). You are right about not being in the center of her universe, here-it may be that her brother could have decided to take a sort of shotgun approach in the last year in his attempt to find his sister, and we're a very small part of that.

 

[alliemay]

This, again, is something that I don't recall-I would certainly hope that he did, but I thought that EL and JL were the ones who did so-if he did, that would help me understand what happened that night.

I don't think would be something that you would recall, because this post is stated as a thought. It's possibly she might feel this was based on the fact that the BF/F went to both the friend and the parents that night with the information about the fight. I would think, also like Rose, since he did this he may have also contacted the police himself. From the angry comment he made to the friend it would sound like the police talked to him several times.

I would find him quite heartless if the BF/F did not go to the parents that night and said to himself, "I'll just let her cool off and talk to her tomorrow". Was it something she said to him that made him go straight to her parents? Or did he think she was home but when he got there he found she was not home and then proceeded to tell the parents about the argument?

There are a lot of times in relationships, when there is a fight, couples will not speak to each other until the next day. Did she say something to him that alarmed him to the point that his went to family and friend. Or, some might say he was covering his tracks that night by doing this and yes anything is possible. The burning question I have, did they see the movie, if they did the time line of his story would fit much better into the equation.

I think I may have figured out one reason why the mother mistrusted the friend. That night when the friend called the mother looking for the friend, the mother already knew that the friend knew about the fight, because the BF/F had already been there to tell her that he stopped at the friends looking for her. Even though the friend did not want to alarm the mother, the mother might look at this as suspicious and wonder if the friend was actually harboring her daughter. There had been times prior to this when Sylvia was mad at her parents, where she would run to the friends house to stay, in fact very recently after the pool party, Sylvia had done that, so I could understand how the mother would have thought the friend was lying.

In order to understand what might have happened we need to know what the fight was about. It's possible the boyfriend did not tell the parents what the fight was about if it was personal, but in talking to the police I would think he would have told them what the fight was about. I wonder if under the freedom of information act one could get more than the one page missing person report that was shown publicly?

 

[rosemadderlake]

My thoughts on Sylvia as shy is I have the impression that she may have seemed outwardly reserved, studious, maybe driven at times with many interests ranging from the natural world, taking care of animals, her studies, art, music, and culture. In school, the marching band must have been fun, a counterpoint to the scientific disciplined side perhaps. A sorority strikes me as a close-by-nature group with the sisterhood and the doing of good deeds. Performing and traveling with the marching band and the outreach work of sororities seem like outward choices, to me. No doubt, she and her best friend must have been viewed as adorable and enterprising working the neighborhood on the ice cream scooter in high school. Did her neighborhood know about her disappearance? I can’t imagine they wouldn’t somehow know her family was looking for her.

Imo -She is not camera shy and takes a great picture. She appears to have had very close relationships and the deep experiences of love and loss at a young age. When her best friend said she could melt men’s hearts with her smile, it was actually one of the statements that made me go “uh oh” in the context of her disappearance. On the night she disappeared, I wonder if they ran into people they knew at the movie theater which I find more probable than some of the more random scenarios. And I wonder if she accepted a ride from a friend of his, mutual friend of theirs, or an acquaintance because if I was having a fight, I can see exiting the car if there was someone I knew still at the movie theater or headed for the ice cream shop. And yes, I think these circles knew about her disappearance but maybe not all at once. So, while I do think that there were possibly many who knew, I don’t think that these circles necessarily knew each other.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Original post TBM:

Did her neighborhood know about her disappearance? I can’t imagine they wouldn’t somehow know her family was looking for her.

Just a minor addition to the above: I think the fact that MMQC's brother and sister-in-law shared a duplex with the Ls says the neighborhood had to know. Even if EL and JL were too traumatized to talk to their neighbors about it, information about SL's disappearance would likely have travelled from MMQC's parents, to the brother and sister-in-law, and then to the neighbors. JMO

 

[Jmoose]

I realize that all of the people who might have known about Sylvia's disappearance wouldn't have surfaced on Websleuths, but I've definitely gotten the sense from the VIs (reading between the lines, at least), that there wasn't a lot of support for the family from any of them. Maybe we are just out of the loop here on that score. If it's true that concern and moral support for the Lwowski family were minimal, then that really makes me sad.

As for what actually happened to Sylvia-while none of the possibilities would surprise me (and I am not hardheaded about any of them), I would be more surprised to find out that she committed suicide or was still alive someplace else.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

A 30-year-old cold case involving a 40-YO woman has been solved with help from a national fingerprnt database and DNA comparison. Interesting fact: The suspect ID'd this way had never before been on the radar as even a POI for this crime. He was a friend of the woman's son at the time.

 

[Jmoose]

GBMG-you can always find the cold cases that are solved many years later, and I really appreciate that-It keeps the hope alive!

 

[epiphany]

College Memories...

Close female friend at college; all of us living in dorm. Occurred during a vacation period or perhaps, weekend beginning. Some of us stayed in the dorms for few days before going home (no extra charge then); others didn't always go home.

GF goes "unofficially" missing. She had an argument with BF. Most of us didn't know that until BF was in a panic looking for her. The GFs that knew about the argument didn't know where she might be. I didn't know about the argument right away, but I had an idea where she might be.

BF called her parents' home, her sister's home, but did not let on that he couldn't locate her.

I don't know why we did, but the different groups, cliques locked down...we all did. Imagine that!