NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

[Jmoose]

I suspect this info is being kept privy only to NYPD...what the fight (according to BF/F) was about.

No doubt

 

[epiphany]

I guess I think the other way, that she broke up with him. Maybe because if I broke up with someone I wouldn't go looking for him that night, (did this with my first husband, broke it off, didn't contact him, didn't ask others who knew him how he was doing, etc) till I found out I was pregnant and the rest as they say is history, I married him and had two more children. Really wish there was some way we could find out what the fight was about. I sure there were rumors, or some, like the police or family and friends may know exactly what the fight was about and choose not to divulge that info.

BBM

I hear you Skeet, I would have done the same, meaning whomever is doing the breaking up, if they mean business, usually behaves in a manner that demonstrates it is over.

In a sense (no apples), he was perfunctory. That's it. He did the minimum if he did the break up. Engaged and all. There...I said it.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I'd say EL did pretty quickly. I perceived my parents as fairly strict, when I was living with them, but do not believe mine would have gone to NYPD that quickly.

MO, there was a reason for that. "Depressed" on the police report. Mom (EL) knew (or sensed) something that we don't. That she may not have spoken openly about...Mothers can be like that.

bbms; Yes, these two things are connected.

El knows what her daughter's mindset is, knows what her issues are with her father, knows why the BFF was not at the pool party, and knows if she is unhappy. Were there known specific issues with her BFF that EL felt may have come to a break up when the BFF returned and said they had a fight? And if the BFF did not offer specifics about the argument maybe it showed in his body language. Parents have this x-ray vision sometimes - I remember it well.

When Sylvia was described as rushed and anxious about enough time to get ready for her date that afternoon it made me think of when I was having problems in my love life, I always had to look my best. I'm sure EL picked up on that, if that was the case.

 

[epiphany]

My sibs...we are not this far apart in years (as SL and her Sib are)...and my parents locked down the info they shared between us---about us!!

Hell, the most interesting stuff I know, I learned, about my Sibs and what they did when we were teens and young adults (the not too good stuff) is from their friends...not from my parents!!

 

[Jmoose]

My sibs...we are not this far apart in years (as SL and her Sib are)...and my parents locked down the info they shared between us---about us!!

Hell, the most interesting stuff I know, I learned, about my Sibs and what they did when we were teens and young adults (the not too good stuff) is from their friends...not from my parents!!

I think this is true, and properly done by parents who are trying to do right by their children-some stuff isn't a siblings business to know. I'd bet this was the case with Sylvia's brother, too. I did wonder, though, if EL might not have shared some information long after 1975, when it was obvious that she wasn't coming back again, and it wouldn't matter if he knew it.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I wonder, if a break up was initiated by him, would there be a clue in the reason he was not at her party which I find very significant at their age. Would some of her sorority be on the guest list at their wedding? If he was playing a gig that night I think it would have been definitively stated. Her girlfriend said she didn't know why (or can't say here), which coming from her closest friend suggests to me there's more to it. SL's father tipped the scales that night for her and she lashed out. These things seem very connected, to me.

I had thought something spontaneous in the argument could have escalated a breakup if they were having doubts and problems because I have a hard time seeing a planned break up on a Saturday night date at the movies.

...imo

 

[epiphany]

I think this is true, and properly done by parents who are trying to do right by their children-some stuff isn't a siblings business to know. I'd bet this was the case with Sylvia's brother, too. I did wonder, though, if EL might not have shared some information long after 1975, when it was obvious that she wasn't coming back again, and it wouldn't matter if he knew it.

BBM

It's possible that she did not share such info...her generation, her own background...my own Mother was very educated, but because of her own experiences (childhood, etc), who she was at her core...I say IMO, No, not necessarily would she share that info...even years later. My Mother was a steel trap...and I was very close to her...that must sound odd? lol Does anyone know what I mean?

 

[epiphany]

I wonder, if a break up was initiated by him, would there be a clue in the reason he was not at her party which I find very significant at their age. Would some of her sorority be on the guest list at their wedding? If he was playing a gig that night I think it would have been definitively stated. Her girlfriend said she didn't know why (or can't say here), which coming from her closest friend suggests to me there's more to it. SL's father tipped the scales that night for her and she lashed out. These things seem very connected, to me.

I had thought something spontaneous in the argument could have escalated a breakup if they were having doubts and problems because I have a hard time seeing a planned break up on a Saturday night date at the movies.

...imo

I know much has been made of BF/F not in attendance at the pool party. It's not related to wedding plans...of which there was no definitive date set for the wedding, etc. No definitive wedding plans. Ring, engagement announcement in newspaper/s, engagement party, etc.

Following protocol, what felt was expected...in a sense.

Life lurking beneath the surface...

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I think this is true, and properly done by parents who are trying to do right by their children-some stuff isn't a siblings business to know. I'd bet this was the case with Sylvia's brother, too. I did wonder, though, if EL might not have shared some information long after 1975, when it was obvious that she wasn't coming back again, and it wouldn't matter if he knew it.

Or, I wonder if EL got into a habit of not sharing, both overall (she seems like someone who played things close to the vest by nature) and specifically with him. I'm thinking initially she may have wanted to protect her son as much as possible from the fallout of SL's disappearance -- so he could continue to have as normal an adolescence as possible. Then of course he left home rather young (18). And her husband seems to have been fairly laconic ... I wonder who she talked to about SL during all these years? Did she have a close friend or relative? Or was she always something of an outsider? If she had no one, would she just start talking about it late in life? Could her son cross that wall to initiate it? He may have felt it caused her pain to talk about it. I'm not sure. My personal impression now is that her son doesn't know a lot about her thinking or what she knew, and has been picking up the pieces of this on his own, but that's MOO. I think it's at least safe to say that, if EL did share her thoughts with him, he has not shared many of them here.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

BBM

It's possible that she did not share such info...her generation, her own background...my own Mother was very educated, but because of her own experiences (childhood, etc), who she was at her core...I say IMO, No, not necessarily would she share that info...even years later. My Mother was a steel trap...and I was very close to her...that must sound odd? lol Does anyone know what I mean?

Maybe she had other ways of communicating or showing that she cared? Or while some subjects were off limits, maybe she still talked with you about other things that mattered to you? People are complicated. If you say it's true, it's true.

 

[alliemay]

I was also close to my mother, but there were things my mother never talked about, and you were kind of afraid to ask. Some skeleton's in the closet that remained forever trapped in a time warp. After her death, and my Aunt's death, some would come out by way of my older sister who had been close to my Aunt. Just a few sad stories, that if had been told to me by my mom, at the right age, would have helped be better understand her as a woman, not just as a mom. At sixteen my mother was hit by a train but survived. Till this day, both me and my sister feel she might have tried to commit suicide but we never came right out and asked her so now we will never know. I wrote to an uncle who I think knows about this, two years ago, he has never answered my letter. I certainly would not think less of my mother if this were true, but I would still like to know, it would help me understand more the person she was.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I'd say EL did pretty quickly. I perceived my parents as fairly strict, when I was living with them, but do not believe mine would have gone to NYPD that quickly.

MO, there was a reason for that. "Depressed" on the police report. Mom (EL) knew (or sensed) something that we don't. That she may not have spoken openly about...Mothers can be like that.

Re the BBMs and going to LE, I am not sure how quick that is or what it tells us. One thing I get from it is that EL knew very quickly that "something was not right." Would it have been enough for her to know that -- if everything was all right -- SL would be home? This is a daughter who's been described as someone you could set a clock by. Did the BF/F tell EL he'd been to MMQC's and that MMQC and MMQC's father had searched too? If so, all the primary players who might know where SL were were accounted for then and there. It's noteworthy, I think, that EL did not go from there to another friend's house to look for SL, but to the mall area.

When I first started responding to this post, I remembered how I thought about this when we talked about it long ago. I wondered then if maybe EL knew SL was planning a breakup. Ordinarily, daughters may not talk to their mothers about their BFs, but when crises occur -- things like ending an engagement or a marriage -- sometimes those walls fall. SL may have been so distraught over her life that she recently confided in her mother, thus the designation of "depressed." A maybe (the confidence) on top of a maybe (a breakup) on top of a maybe (being distraught with her life). Not a lot to be sure of in that.

Now I'm wondering whether, knowing SL's state of mind, EL may have been worried about suicide. Did we talk about this? I know we all recently discounted it as being among the least likely of scenarios, but I still don't hear EL alleging foul play -- not now, and not in all the years she followed up with MMQC. So what did she think had happened? Was "running off" something she thought SL might do out of being "depressed"? Or was she worried about something more serious? Was she trying to suggest to LE with this word (without saying it) that she was afraid SL might hurt herself? And is that what she didn't want to "publicize"?

Back to how quickly EL went to police: What options did she have? She knew something wasn't right. The BF/F was caught in his own drama. Her son was only 16. They had no close relatives on SI, right? Her husband was ... well, it seems he was not one to be counted on at such times. I think LE was a logical choice even if she didn't have any idea of what might of happened. Desperation doesn't need time to set in. And I don't think she had anyone else to call on. JMO

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I was also close to my mother, but there were things my mother never talked about, and you were kind of afraid to ask. Some skeleton's in the closet that remained forever trapped in a time warp. After her death, and my Aunt's death, some would come out by way of my older sister who had been close to my Aunt. Just a few sad stories, that if had been told to me by my mom, at the right age, would have helped be better understand her as a woman, not just as a mom. At sixteen my mother was hit by a train but survived. Till this day, both me and my sister feel she might have tried to commit suicide but we never came right out and asked her so now we will never know. I wrote to an uncle who I think knows about this, two years ago, he has never answered my letter. I certainly would not think less of my mother if this were true, but I would still like to know, it would help me understand more the person she was.

OMG, Skeet, that's an extraordinary story. I wonder if, in the case of your uncle, no answer is an answer. People in that generation just didn't talk about those kinds of things -- lips sealed, key tossed. I believe my mother kept a similar secret -- that she was sexually abused. I will never "know," and yet, I know. She could hide the facts, but not what it did to her. So sad.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I know much has been made of BF/F not in attendance at the pool party. It's not related to wedding plans...of which there was no definitive date set for the wedding, etc. No definitive wedding plans. Ring, engagement announcement in newspaper/s, engagement party, etc.

Following protocol, what felt was expected...in a sense.

Life lurking beneath the surface...

Bbm: Yes, I totally agree with this.

I keep bringing up the pool party because what if her sorority was a group of ‘prospective wedding guests’ and he is a no show, or blew it off, or they had an argument. It kind of rocks the foundation of what she may have felt was “expected of her”. It wasn’t like this party happened at graduation, it happened three months after, and a week before she disappeared. I am not buying no one knew why he wasn’t there. Also, when the question was asked to her best girlfriend to list three (3) possibilities as to what the argument may have been about – I believe “wedding plans” is on that list.

All of these things could be such “no big deal” scenarios - arguments, break ups, get back together, break up for good, life goes on… -But in the context of her disappearance, we have Sylvia and the input from her nearest and dearest, and some hearsay about the ring. As we try to reconstruct what could have happened 38 years ago, the importance or insignificance of the “why” would Sylvia run from the car at that time, on that night, keeps coming back to me. --I know it has been asked before but was that the first time that happened? -Because it set a lot of people in motion. Or, was there something that was known that just cannot be shared here, like knowing why she and her finance would have an argument at that time, on that night; knowing “why” even with no details from the BFF.

 

[alliemay]

All of your thoughts on what Eva may have been thinking at the time, made me think of the line, "it may hurt her future job prospects" if it were made public. If I felt my daughter ran away to harm herself, I would certainly rethink the publicity thing. On the other hand, if I had thought there was foul play, I would not have hesitated in plastering missing person posters everywhere. All thought it is last on my list, I cannot discount this theory.

 

[alliemay]

OMG, Skeet, that's an extraordinary story. I wonder if, in the case of your uncle, no answer is an answer. People in that generation just didn't talk about those kinds of things -- lips sealed, key tossed. I believe my mother kept a similar secret -- that she was sexually abused. I will never "know," and yet, I know. She could hide the facts, but not what it did to her. So sad.

Yes, no answer I felt was my answer. I actually called his house, (lives across county, otherwise I would have talked to him face to face), his wife said that they received the letter but my uncle was not one for writing letters much. What a lame excuse. I also think my Dad knew and that's how my uncle knows.

Before this happened to my Mom, my grandfather who was an alcoholic, did something cruel. She witnessed him drowning six puppies in the their bathtub and she tried to save them but couldn't. After that there was a breakup with a boy she felt she was in love with. Her mother broke off their relationship by going to the boy's house and threatening him with all the neighbors watching. Like I said my Mom didn't talk much about her, if me or my sister brought it up (not the boyfriend story because we didn't know about that till years later) all she would say was that she felt angels had lifted her up and helped her land in a safe place. The cow catcher on the train flew her through the air to the point where she landed in one spot, and her shoes landed quite a distance away. Like I said the events leading up helped me to understand the "why".

 

[Jmoose]

Or, I wonder if EL got into a habit of not sharing, both overall (she seems like someone who played things close to the vest by nature) and with specifically with him. I'm thinking initially she may have wanted to protect her son as much as possible from the fallout of SL's disappearance -- so he could continue to have as normal an adolescence as possible. Then of course he left home rather young (18). And her husband seems to have been fairly laconic ... I wonder who she talked to about SL during all these years? Did she have a close friend or relative? Or was she always something of an outsider? If she had no one, would she just start talking about it late in life? Could her son cross that wall to initiate it? He may have felt it caused her pain to talk about it. I'm not sure. My personal impression now is that her son doesn't know a lot about her thinking or what she knew, and has been picking up the pieces of this on his own, but that's MOO. I think it's at least safe to say that, if EL did share her thoughts with him, he has not shared many of them here.

In the Staten Island Advance article, Sylvia's brother told the reporter that Sylvia's disappearance "tore the family apart", or words to that effect. If the family talked, or even if they didn't, it is plain to see how her brother was marked by it. I think EL was from a time and place that made it difficult to talk about things like this. Since ASWDH waited until after EL died to make make his effort, and knows the answer to so few of our questions, they probably didn't talk about it. What drove him to try, and yet not his parents? Lack of technological knowlege on the part of his parents?

 

[rosemadderlake]

I was also close to my mother, but there were things my mother never talked about, and you were kind of afraid to ask. Some skeleton's in the closet that remained forever trapped in a time warp. After her death, and my Aunt's death, some would come out by way of my older sister who had been close to my Aunt. Just a few sad stories, that if had been told to me by my mom, at the right age, would have helped be better understand her as a woman, not just as a mom. At sixteen my mother was hit by a train but survived. Till this day, both me and my sister feel she might have tried to commit suicide but we never came right out and asked her so now we will never know. I wrote to an uncle who I think knows about this, two years ago, he has never answered my letter. I certainly would not think less of my mother if this were true, but I would still like to know, it would help me understand more the person she was.

Omg is right - I hope your uncle can find a way to answer you, and I also think you and your sister may have gotten close to the truth -

My maternal grandmother over dosed on barbiturates (main med for thyroid in early 60's) on Christmas day and it shaped a few generations in various forms. Was it an accident? They soften these things with terms like accidental suicide. I found out many years later they negotiated with the doctor to put accident on the death certificate so she could have a Catholic burial. My maternal grandfather died a year later of a heart attack. My father worked long hours commuting to NYC. It left my (then young) mother, an only child herself, with three young children completely without a net. I think of how unbearable her loneliness must have been sometimes stuck on a farm in the middle of nowhere. I was ten years old when my mother had her first panic attack - something she courageously lived and dealt with for the rest of her life. As the oldest child I think it shaped how my mother and I were close. -How I became her mother sometimes, and how an early tragedy at a young age can give a child a real glimpse of darkness. And how in the context of a couple other tragedies in my family, the notion of taking one's life is one of those core pieces passed along sometimes. There were a few surprises I learned after my mother passed and I thought I knew everything. Bbm: I feel that in knowing and understanding the life altering events of my grandmother and mother is not only to understand these two women, but unlocks pieces of the mystery of who I am as well.

 

[Jmoose]

Skeet-the story about your mother is remarkable! I agree that your Uncle's lack of an answer, is likely an answer itself.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

All of your thoughts on what Eva may have been thinking at the time, made me think of the line, "it may hurt her future job prospects" if it were made public. If I felt my daughter ran away to harm herself, I would certainly rethink the publicity thing. On the other hand, if I had thought there was foul play, I would not have hesitated in plastering missing person posters everywhere. All thought it is last on my list, I cannot discount this theory.

BBM1: Yes, suicide carried a real stigma back then (and historically). Less so now, I think, due to how our understanding of mental illness, grief, and depression has evolved. Wasn't it actually "illegal" at one time (with the black-humor punchline of "what's the penalty" -- "death")? And it carried such dark religious consequences in the Catholic church -- mortal sin (barred from the pearly gates) and excommunication (barred from the cemetery gates). It's always seemed unfair to me that, after suffering the pain of losing someone to suicide, a family had to endure the church separating them in death too. Job prospects? Yes -- instability at the very least would have been the unfair conclusion.

BBM2: I think I agree with you -- the likelihood that this is what actually happened is still low on my list, but the possiblity that EL feared it may have moved up my list. I'm seeing these as two separate things.