NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

[rosemadderlake]

In the Staten Island Advance article, Sylvia's brother told the reporter that Sylvia's disappearance "tore the family apart", or words to that effect. If the family talked, or even if they didn't, it is plain to see how her brother was marked by it. I think EL was from a time and place that made it difficult to talk about things like this. Since ASWDH waited until after EL died to make make his effort, and knows the answer to so few of our questions, they probably didn't talk about it. What drove him to try, and yet not his parents? Lack of technological knowlege on the part of his parents?

bbm: This is a good question. I don't think lack of tech knowledge has anything to do with it because of the timing after their passing. And, these databases like Namus weren't created until 2005. I think her brother saw that opportunity and followed through. Perhaps he waited if his Mom's health was fragile?

The Charlie Project listing in 2004 gets their info from LE, but did they initiate that or her family? There was the Altoona PA reference which had no link to the source or content adding further mystery...

 

[rosemadderlake]

BBM1: Yes, suicide carried a real stigma back then (and historically). Less so now, I think, due to how our understanding of mental illness, grief, and depression has evolved. Wasn't it actually "illegal" at one time (with the black-humor punchline of "what's the penalty" -- "death")? And it carried such dark religious consequences in the Catholic church -- mortal sin (barred from the pearly gates) and excommunication (barred from the cemetery gates). It's always seemed unfair to me that, after suffering the pain of losing someone to suicide, a family had to endure the church separating them in death too. Job prospects? Yes -- instability at the very least would have been the unfair conclusion.

BBM2: I think I agree with you -- the likelihood that this is what actually happened is still low on my list, but the possiblity that EL feared it may have moved up my list. I'm seeing these as two separate things.

This is really well stated GBMG, and I think the stigma of suicide was very much a part of what was feared for her back in the 70's as well.

While I don't see or hear anything that would indicate "planned suicide", if her world unraveled that night, I can see misjudgement of accepting a ride from the wrong person, misstep in running through the lesser known terrain, or even going for a swim in the harbor in the darkness, as risky emotional possibilities...

 

[Jmoose]

This is really well stated GBMG, and I think the stigma of suicide was very much a part of what was feared for her back in the 70's as well.

While I don't see or hear anything that would indicate "planned suicide", if her world unraveled that night, I can see misjudgement of accepting a ride from the wrong person, misstep in running through the lesser known terrain, or even going for a swim in the harbor in the darkness, as risky emotional possibilities...

Yes-this is where I am at, I think.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

This is really well stated GBMG, and I think the stigma of suicide was very much a part of what was feared for her back in the 70's as well.

While I don't see or hear anything that would indicate "planned suicide", if her world unraveled that night, I can see misjudgement of accepting a ride from the wrong person, misstep in running through the lesser known terrain, or even going for a swim in the harbor in the darkness, as risky emotional possibilities...

Thanks, Rose.

Re the BBM, this is interesting. The same thought occurred to me this morning. People have killed themselves this way before ... by simply walking out into the water and, when it gets deep enough, letting it take them. It has always struck me as a very passive approach to suicide -- my thought has always been, wouldn't you kick and fight at the last minute? -- but that is what depression primes you for: passivity. Having been clinically depressed myself, I know your thinking is not right, and that there is little if any fight in someone who is depressed. It also occurred to me that, due to SL's love of the ocean and the things that live in it, in some distorted way, she may have seen the sea as a comfort. I know some have argued that her body would have turned up, but the ocean is vast, and its currents not entirely predictable. I do think this is possible. I'm not sure we know enough for it to be plausible, but it is at least possible. JMO

 

[Jmoose]

BBM1: Yes, suicide carried a real stigma back then (and historically). Less so now, I think, due to how our understanding of mental illness, grief, and depression has evolved. Wasn't it actually "illegal" at one time (with the black-humor punchline of "what's the penalty" -- "death")? And it carried such dark religious consequences in the Catholic church -- mortal sin (barred from the pearly gates) and excommunication (barred from the cemetery gates). It's always seemed unfair to me that, after suffering the pain of losing someone to suicide, a family had to endure the church separating them in death too. Job prospects? Yes -- instability at the very least would have been the unfair conclusion.

BBM2: I think I agree with you -- the likelihood that this is what actually happened is still low on my list, but the possiblity that EL feared it may have moved up my list. I'm seeing these as two separate things.

O/T-When I was in college, my mother's older sister committed suicide, and aside from all of the obvious reasons to grieve, the thing that tortured my mother was that she couldn't have been absolved of her "sins", have a catholic funeral mass or be buried in consecrated ground. I am no longer a practicing catholic, but when my mother was dying, my sister and I snuck a priest in for her last rites when my father wasn't there, because we knew she wanted it, and didn't think she would have it.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Original post TBM:

As we try to reconstruct what could have happened 38 years ago, the importance or insignificance of the “why” would Sylvia run from the car at that time, on that night, keeps coming back to me. --I know it has been asked before but was that the first time that happened? -Because it set a lot of people in motion. Or, was there something that was known that just cannot be shared here, like knowing why she and her finance would have an argument at that time, on that night; knowing “why” even with no details from the BFF.

This question came up for me again too today, Rose. I wonder if we can put a few things in one bucket to hypothesize an answer: (1) running from the car during the fight, (2) the kick at the pool party, (3) times when MMQC said SL fled her own home and took solace at MMQC's house. If in fact running from the car is "in character" for SL, maybe what was so upsetting that night was that SL wasn't at any of the places she would normally run to when that happened. It might also explain why her BF/F was so comfortable going to SL's house right away and telling her parents what happened. IMO, many guys would not do that so quickly, but maybe it wasn't the first time it had come up between them. It might also explain why they weren't thinking foul play at his hands -- what was alarming may have simply been that she didn't come home (or got to MMQC's) afterward. JMO

 

[Jmoose]

MMQC gave no indication that it was her habit to bolt from the car-just that she would frequently go to that place described as "where (they'd) go after a fight with a boyfriend to cool off". I got the impression from the two VIs that the fight with the father and running from the car were out of character for her, although other people here may feel differently.

Her brother told me that he thought she was pregnant at the time she disappeared, which could have explained her behavior.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Thanks, Rose.

Re the BBM, this is interesting. The same thought occurred to me this morning. People have killed themselves this way before ... by simply walking out into the water and, when it gets deep enough, letting it take them. It has always struck me as a very passive approach to suicide -- my thought has always been, wouldn't you kick and fight at the last minute? -- but that is what depression primes you for: passivity. Having been clinically depressed myself, I know your thinking is not right, and that there is little if any fight in someone who is depressed. It also occurred to me that, due to SL's love of the ocean and the things that live in it, in some distorted way, she may have seen the sea as a comfort. I know some have argued that her body would have turned up, but the ocean is vast, and its currents not entirely predictable. I do think this is possible. I'm not sure we know enough for it to be plausible, but it is at least possible. JMO

Thanks for sharing this - your clarity comes from knowing and what you describe is exactly what my other sister has gone through after the loss of our youngest sister 20 years ago. Even today, this subject of depression is still treaded lightly upon and misunderstood (imo). It is different than working through the emotional dimensions of grief. There is the sheer physicality of it, the weight of it. For my sister - a few years ago she found a bike ride cause and now each summer rides a zillion miles with zillions of people, trains for months and I think it has done more for her than just about anything else. I know this is all totally OT - but what this tells me is how strong the physical component is for some and how our non-physical workplaces may actually contribute - so stuck in the office.

For Sylvia, I am really thinking accident, like swam too far couldn't get back, got hinged underwater couldn't surface, ran too fast and into swampland. For her to take a swim would be to leave some things behind like her purse, shoes, something else maybe, so unless she hid these things I see the harbor as the least likely (though the water would have been warm - probably perfect) - but still without any publicity or formal search would her possessions, if found, ever be connected to her missing persons report...

- I remember running from a fight with my BF when I was 19-20 and I was quite astonished at my speed because the emotions playing out. I ended up across town and into a favorite park where I could calm down. It took quite a while to calm down.

 

[rosemadderlake]

MMQC gave no indication that it was her habit to bolt from the car-just that she would frequently go to that place described as "where (they'd) go after a fight with a boyfriend to cool off". I got the impression from the two VIs that the fight with the father and running from the car were out of character for her, although other people here may feel differently.

Her brother told me that he thought she was pregnant at the time she disappeared, which could have explained her behavior.

--I wonder if the BFF knew? This would explain more about EL's reaction as well.

ETA: I wonder if SL thought she was pregnant but didn't know for sure? Those days you had to see a doctor to find out. Is this her brother's hunch? Or, is it a fact? I would think if it were a fact it would be more a part of the story, listed in Namus as something that could identify her if she was unidentified...

 

[GoingByMyGut]

MMQC gave no indication that it was her habit to bolt from the car-just that she would frequently go to that place described as "where (they'd) go after a fight with a boyfriend to cool off". I got the impression from the two VIs that the fight with the father and running from the car were out of character for her, although other people here may feel differently.

Her brother told me that he thought she was pregnant at the time she disappeared, which could have explained her behavior.

BBM1: Yes, Conference House Park. But MMQC also said it was common for SL to leave home in a tiff and spend the night at her house. The "kick" may have been unique, as may the flight from the car -- but all of these things together point to a high emotional lability, IMO. I'm not saying she went around kicking things, or that she had daily tantrums, but she may have had a low flash point. Just trying to use what we have to make a connection. In her life, things may have looked differently. Also, when you live with something like this daily, you come to see it as normal. JMO

BBM2: If this is true (and what is his basis for this?), it might drive up the possibility of suicide for me, given her history with this.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

TBM:

Thanks for sharing this - your clarity comes from knowing and what you describe is exactly what my other sister has gone through after the loss of our youngest sister 20 years ago. Even today, this subject of depression is still treaded lightly upon and misunderstood (imo). It is different than working through the emotional dimensions of grief. There is the sheer physicality of it, the weight of it. For my sister - a few years ago she found a bike ride cause and now each summer rides a zillion miles with zillions of people, trains for months and I think it has done more for her than just about anything else. I know this is all totally OT - but what this tells me is how strong the physical component is for some and how our non-physical workplaces may actually contribute - so stuck in the office.

For Sylvia, I am really thinking accident, like swam too far couldn't get back, got hinged underwater couldn't surface, ran too fast and into swampland. For her to take a swim would be to leave some things behind like her purse, shoes, something else maybe, so unless she hid these things I see the harbor as the least likely (though the water would have been warm - probably perfect) - but still without any publicity or formal search would her possessions, if found, ever be connected to her missing persons report...

BBM1: Yes, it makes it difficult to move ... you can sit all day and do nothing but watch life moving past you in fast-forward, and be unable to insert yourself. But everyone experiences it differently -- some get weepy and sad. I feel like I disappear -- the "me" that usually inhabits my body thins and vanishes until I am completely empty and disconnected. Others are troubled by intense desperation, which I think is the stuff of suicide (though the inability to find a solution to outside circumstances can put you here too). For SL, it's the latter that I think is possible.

BBM2: I thought you might mean accident ... I guess I hijacked your thought for my own purposes But re shoes, purse, etc.? Easily trashed in a garbage can on the way to the beach, IMO. No one would ever have looked.

 

[alliemay]

I know MMQC stated the Sylvia would not have put herself in a position again to get pregnant again after what she had been though...but I found it strange that she did not follow up with that comment by adding, "because she was on birth control, or using protection" etc. Maybe if she thought she was pregnant she would have kept it from her friend this time.

 

[rosemadderlake]

TBM:


BBM1: Yes, it makes it difficult to move ... you can sit all day and do nothing but watch life moving past you in fast-forward, and be unable to insert yourself. But everyone experiences it differently -- some get weepy and sad. I feel like I disappear -- the "me" that usually inhabits my body thins and vanishes until I am completely empty and disconnected. Others are troubled by intense desperation, which I think is the stuff of suicide (though the inability to find a solution to outside circumstances can put you here too). For SL, it's the latter that I think is possible.

BBM2: I thought you might mean accident ... I guess I hijacked your thought for my own purposes But re shoes, purse, etc.? Easily trashed in a garbage can on the way to the beach, IMO. No one would ever have looked.

bbm 1: Yes, my sister disappears and vanishes, too.

You know I think we underestimate how powerful it is, too. My first thought on Sylvia is no way, the world is her oyster if she wants it. -But bbm2: -Could be so wrong about that...

I wonder if EL knew SL thought she might be pregnant and this would be a "no publicity" reason. My mother was very open minded and pro choice in the 70's but if you were pregnant out of wedlock, or got an abortion, chances are you were really judged back then. All of it was very hush hush. -Such a contrast to today - makes the 70's seem like the dark ages.

We also don't know how Sylvia would be reacting to this if say her relationship was troubled, or say if he wanted to wait, she never told him about her previous abortion, the list could go on,,,

 

[GoingByMyGut]

TBM:

In trying to reconcile all of the information about the various characters here, I'm having a lot of difficulty making the relationships fit well. A Jewish girl marrying a Catholic man-no evidence that the families disapproved, but they weren't friendly, either, and his family didn't seem to care that she suddenly disappeared, other than how it affected him.

JMoose, re the BBM, I thought of this when you posted it back a few pages but didn't have time to look for clarification at the time. Just now, when looking for the other thing I mentioned, I found it. MMQC told us (Thread 2, Post 736) that SL was raised Catholic. The issue of EL's relationship to WWII Poland/Germany, other family being killed in the war, and the tattoo MMQC claimed she saw on EL's wrist probably all put Jewish in your mind. But it appears that JL Sr. was Catholic and this is how the kids were raised. No idea about EL.

 

[alliemay]

TBM:


JMoose, re the BBM, I thought of this when you posted it back a few pages but didn't have time to look for clarification at the time. Just now, when looking for the other thing I mentioned, I found it. MMQC told us (Thread 2, Post 736) that SL was raised Catholic. The issue of EL's relationship to WWII Poland/Germany, other family being killed in the war, and the tattoo MMQC claimed she saw on EL's wrist probably all put Jewish in your mind. But it appears that JL Sr. was Catholic and this is how the kids were raised. No idea about EL.

I think MMQC said they didn't belong to one specific church or go regularly.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I think MMQC said they didn't belong to one specific church or go regularly.

To me "raised Catholic" means baptized, first communion, maybe confirmation. What they do in between varies from family to family ... but the only point I was making is that the family did not raise the children in the Jewish faith.

 

[Jmoose]

--I wonder if the BFF knew? This would explain more about EL's reaction as well.

ETA: I wonder if SL thought she was pregnant but didn't know for sure? Those days you had to see a doctor to find out. Is this her brother's hunch? Or, is it a fact? I would think if it were a fact it would be more a part of the story, listed in Namus as something that could identify her if she was unidentified...

It was only a hunch on his part, and he told me he thought this could be what they fought about, but he didn't seem to know for sure.

 

[Jmoose]

Did I think Sylvia was Jewish because her mother was? I guess I did-totally missed when MMQC said she was raised Catholic.

 

[rosemadderlake]

MMQC gave no indication that it was her habit to bolt from the car-just that she would frequently go to that place described as "where (they'd) go after a fight with a boyfriend to cool off". I got the impression from the two VIs that the fight with the father and running from the car were out of character for her, although other people here may feel differently.

Her brother told me that he thought she was pregnant at the time she disappeared, which could have explained her behavior.

It was only a hunch on his part, and he told me he thought this could be what they fought about, but he didn't know for sure.

bbms: I wonder if she was pregnant, showed other signs, and El knew that?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Did I think Sylvia was Jewish because her mother was? I guess I did-totally missed when MMQC said she was raised Catholic.

I think this whole issue was confusing for all of us. We all assumed EL was Jewish because (1) MMQC believes EL had a tattoo (vehemently denied by ASWDeerHunter) and (2) ASWDeerHunter said the rest of EL's family was killed in Germany in WWII (they were ethnic Polish living in Germany). However, due to the ambiguity of ASWDeerHunter's responses on the topic, I am not sure we can even say with certainty that EL's family was killed because they were Jewish. After all, people with other characteristics were also killed (the Romani people come to mind) and people were killed for looking the wrong way, occupying homes the SS wanted, etc. ASWDeerHunter seemed to find questions on the topic offensive, so I take the position that we don't know whether she was Jewish. Even if she was, some Jewish people renounced their faith after the war, and if EL did this, she had every right to do so.

LOL -- you asked the same thing in thread 2. Here's a link to the post where I link to all of ASWDH's posts on this topic.