SOLVED NY - Tala Farea, 16, Rotana Farea, 22, Hudson River, 24 Oct 2018- COD released: suicide/drowning

[Snoopster]

True, but that was quite a different matter. SA took exception to something our Prime Minister did/said and the country did a bit of saber rattling. Thankfully, the students have been allowed to stay.

I missed that they ended up being allowed to stay. I saw news articles on students selling their things at fire sale prices. And ultimately there was this article.

While most Saudi Arabian students are being forced to return to the country amid a diplomatic row between Saudi Arabia and Canada, medical students have been granted leave to stay and continue their training until other arrangements can be made.

Saudi Arabian medical students allowed to stay in Canada amid political spat, for now

Of course, there may have been later 'consessions', but by then most students would have had to have sold their belongings, given up their leases, and arranged flights out of Canada.

In the end, the Saudi government, under the new "freedoms" of MbS, are not something SA citizens can really realize. No one....no one...can criticize MbS specifically or KSA in general. Just ask the women activists who fought for the freedom of women to drive in SA. Shortly after announcing the new "freedom", all of those women were arrested. They remain imprisoned still.

 

[K_Z]

The brother may be a student, but I'm curious why the mother is in the US. It seems the eldest daughter was staying in luxurious accommodation at some point. I'd like to know who was paying for this as she's a student.

This is a very strange story, and after the events of last month, I just don't trust the Saudis at all.

The mother is here as a chaperone for her daughters, IMO. The daughters are young and unmarried. And the brother is younger than they are. Mom is the chaperone. She is supposed to mother them and keep them behaving in a manner that is consistent with the values and culture of KSA.

 

[Isabelle]

Are the sisters/family of a culture that the family will destroy them for disrespecting the family’s honor. Hope I am making sense

 

[alekto]

The mother is here as a chaperone for her daughters, IMO. The daughters are young and unmarried. And the brother is younger than they are. Mom is the chaperone. She is supposed to mother them and keep them behaving in a manner that is consistent with the values and culture of KSA.

So who killed them, in your opinion?

 

[K_Z]

Why didn't the older daughter marry a U.S citizen by now.

It is incredibly unlikely the older (or younger) daughter would be given official permission to marry a westerner or U.S. citizen.

These are not westernized or european girls/ women. You cannot consider them, or their actions, apart from their culture and the restrictions of KSA citizenship. They are KSA female citizens who were given vast privileges to travel, live, and study abroad. And their behavior here in the U.S. was not in compliance with their culture or country's norms or laws.

 

[K_Z]

So who killed them, in your opinion?

<modsnip - not victim friendly>
To subdue 2 adult women, bind them, and lower them into the river to drown without serious injuries would have taken possibly 2-4 adult men.

Drownings are all too common for girls and women in KSA. Family swimming pools are frequently used to carry out the punishment. Death certificates for women and girls might not even be filed in that country. They just disappear, and it's not polite to ask what happened to them, or where they went. It's never polite when in KSA to ask a Saudi man about his wives or daughters. It's offensive.

 

[Snoopster]

Are the sisters/family of a culture that the family will destroy them for disrespecting the family’s honor. Hope I am making sense

You are absolutely making sense. The obvious 'solutions' to this case are one of a few:

- dishonored the family. <modsnip - not victim friendly>.
- dishonored the family, so the sisters were ostracized. They ultimately gave up the uphill battle and ended with a statement.
- dishonored Saudi Arabia. So SA took them out.

In the end, their demise will likely be due to the fact that they wanted American life. That was not to be.

ETA: I'm going with #1 or #3.

 

[lonetraveler]

After arriving on the scene, police discovered the women lying face to face with duct tape around their waists, a police source tells People. Their feet were also duct taped but not to each other.

ABC7 reported that the victims were in their late teens or early 20s.

New York Daily News reported that the women were both dressed in black leggings with one wearing a bomber jacket and the other a grey hooded jacket.

Bodies of 2 Women Bound Together with Duct Tape Found Washed Up on the Rocks of the Hudson River

Lesbian death pact perhaps.

Feet were duct taped together but not to each other, tells me that this is not a clear cut case of suicide. Suicide pact is just way too convenient IMO.

 

[K_Z]

Are the sisters/family of a culture that the family will destroy them for disrespecting the family’s honor. Hope I am making sense

Absolutely, yes. 100% yes.

<modsnip - discussing moderation>. Confronting the apalling realities of the culture and laws of KSA related to women is essential to respecting and honoring these 2 women in their deaths.

They died on American soil. But they are 100% Saudi women, under the laws and jurisdiction of KSA. Their deaths will not become the international matter that Kashoggi's was, because they "don't matter" in international matters. They were just embarrassing and infuriating to KSA, IMO. In a week or so, they will be forgotten by U.S. media. IMO.

 

[Snoopster]

It is incredibly unlikely the older (or younger) daughter would be given official permission to marry a westerner or U.S. citizen.

These are not westernized or european girls/ women. You cannot consider them, or their actions, apart from their culture and the restrictions of KSA citizenship. They are KSA female citizens who were given vast privileges to travel, live, and study abroad. And their behavior here in the U.S. was not in compliance with their culture or country's norms or laws.

This.

 

[rat sally]

Their deaths will not become the international matter that Kashoggi's was, because they "don't matter" in international matters. They were just embarrassing and infuriating to KSA, IMO. In a week or so, they will be forgotten by U.S. media. IMO.

Khashoggi was a Washington Post journalist lured to his doom. To equate the two young women - likely suicides - to him is false equivalence, and with an unwarranted slap at media into the bargain. Events need covering. Yes, sadly, this may go cold. The world spins madly on.

 

[K_Z]

You are absolutely making sense. The obvious 'solutions' to this case are one of a few:

- dishonored the family. <modsnip - not victim friendly>.
- dishonored the family, so the sisters were ostracized. They ultimately gave up the uphill battle and ended with a statement.
- dishonored Saudi Arabia. So SA took them out.

In the end, their demise will likely be due to the fact that they wanted American life. That was not to be.

ETA: I'm going with #1 or #3.

I'll add that in KSA women/ girls who rebel are not "ostracized" in KSA. They usually end up dead, if their rebellion is sufficiently embarrassing or culturally recalcitrant (and that varies widely as to how devout the family is).

KSA authorities are loathe to investigate or interfere with "family matters" in KSA, as long as the "family matters" are handled by the family. By the male head of the family.

 

[citylady]

Finally, photos...

Mystery shrouds Saudi sisters' US deaths

 

[OneEye]

These terribly unfortunate girls' deaths, IMO, have been caused by both political, and cultural forces. This is not a "random" double murder, nor a peculiar double suicide. IMO.

I have spent an extended amount of time in KSA, and so I have a unique perspective on the treatment of women and girls in that country and culture. What these girls were doing in the weeks and months prior to their deaths would not be at all tolerated in their culture. This tragedy has all the hallmarks of a typical "cultural punishment" double murder, IMO.

But I don't think these sisters' deaths have anything to do with the Kashoggi murder.

And I can't help but notice that the drawings initially released portray 2 women who appear to be of AA descent-- and look nothing at all like the pictures released today. Interesting, considering the reports are that the bodies had not been decomposed at all, nor damaged, so facial features should not have been too badly distorted.

I think there is *zero* chance this was a double suicide. And I don't think it will ever be solved.

Thank you for sharing your view based on a very unique perspective of having lived in the KSA. I agree that this case looks very much like cultural punishment <modsnip - not victim friendly> IMO based on other cases we have seen in Turkey and France over the years. It saddens me greatly that these 2 girls were potentially seeking asylum and did not appear to get the security that they needed to stay alive. I hope the facts eventually emerge on how they were surviving in NYC and whether the US Government had any involvement in their stay.

I also agree that the case has zero to do with the JK murder by KSA. But many Americans are learning a great deal about KSA recently and in particular MBS from some of the wonderful news coverage of the JK murder that while its not directly related it has been a window into the KSA for so many of us as the last time we had this much coverage on KSA was 9/11 with 15 of the 19 hijackers coming from KSA. The fact that some wonderful historical coverage of KSA from Frontline, ITV and BBC has been put online now is making it easier to better understand some of what these 2 girls no doubt were dealing with and the great fear they felt in being summoned back to KSA. NYPD has amazing resources and skill and with their experience looking at the 9/11 case no doubt have alot of knowledge inhouse about the cultural and political forces at play potentially in this very tragic case. I agree the case will be challenging for NYPD but I'm not ready to give up hope yet that this case case can be solved!

 

[3llecia]

But I don't think these sisters' deaths have anything to do with the Kashoggi murder.
I think there is *zero* chance this was a double suicide. And I don't think it will ever be solved.

After following the Kashoggi story, the KSA's media strategy was first to strongly deny; then claim 'rogue' offender; then accept he's dead but deny Turkey's graphic death details; then launch own 'investigation'; and now today, claim he was murdered 'instantly' upon entering the consulate (thus removing any need to refute MBS's alleged phone call to Jamal before he was tortured and killed.)

The KSA version of events was continuously and effectively dismantled by the Turkish authorities (probably with surveillance inside the consulate) leaking info as they scoped out how the US would react to the alleged murder of a US resident. US/international media continued that heat on the truth, calling out the disparities, and that's how the KSA's multiple excuses changed.

The intelligence community is likely involved in the sister's case, whether publicised or not. Without bringing politics into this, I agree, I don't think these sisters' deaths will be explained to the public.

 

[K_Z]

Khashoggi was a Washington Post journalist lured to his doom. To equate the two young women - likely suicides - to him is false equivalence, and with an unwarranted slap at media into the bargain. Events need covering. Yes, sadly, this may go cold. The world spins madly on.

That is exactly my point-- these 2 girls are not at all "equivalent" to Kashoggi and his position here, and in KSA.

Therefore, their deaths aren't as sensational, or as political. These girls were "disposable" in the mindset of the culture of KSA because they are "just girls" who needed to be punished and made an example of. IMO.

If they had been "forced" to return to KSA, or "forced" to seek refuge/ asylum here-- there could have been a big international incident, since they had already applied for asylum. Protests. Optics and diplomacy that is embarrassing for KSA. Problems at the embassies and airports, etc.

So, IMO, the persons and authorities responsible for their deaths took the easier way. No persuading them to come back to KSA. Now they are just dead. A bit of a mystery how it happened, and enough doubt that it was a suicide, to make it all go away. Limited exposure. Limited media coverage.

 

[OneEye]

I'll add that in KSA women/ girls who rebel are not "ostracized" in KSA. They usually end up dead, if their rebellion is sufficiently embarrassing or culturally recalcitrant (and that varies widely as to how devout the family is).

KSA authorities are loathe to investigate or interfere with "family matters" in KSA, as long as the "family matters" are handled by the family. By the male head of the family.

Just one question for you if you don't mind. Do you have a sense of how the fact that this family seems to be or means and from Jeddah (Jeddah - Wikipedia) might play into this situation in terms of how religious or perhaps not the family might be? I'm trying to better understand the cultural differences between the major cities in KSA and if there is a meaningful cultural/religious difference between Jeddah and say Riyahd (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riyadh)? On the surface both cities appear cosmopolitan but I realize its all relative as we are dealing with KSA!

 

[OneEye]

That is exactly my point-- these 2 girls are not at all "equivalent" to Kashoggi and his position here, and in KSA.

Therefore, their deaths aren't as sensational, or as political. These girls were "disposable" in the mindset of the culture of KSA because they are "just girls" who needed to be punished and made an example of. IMO.

If they had been "forced" to return to KSA, or "forced" to seek refuge/ asylum here-- there could have been a big international incident, since they had already applied for asylum. Protests. Optics and diplomacy that is embarrassing for KSA. Problems at the embassies and airports, etc.

So, IMO, the persons and authorities responsible for their deaths took the easier way. No persuading them to come back to KSA. Now they are just dead. A bit of a mystery how it happened, and enough doubt that it was a suicide, to make it all go away. Limited exposure. Limited media coverage.

The media exposure is building slowly and has hit all the major media markets in the EU and US over the past few days, so I wouldn't write this case off yet as having no impact. The press release from the KSA consulate yesterday indicated that the case was on its radar and looking at that masterful piece of writing my guess is that it took a team of lawyers and PR folks more than a few minutes to write! KSA is under a global microscope at the moment, we have the issue of asylum and immigration (hot buttons at the moment in the US and globally) and that could impact the resources given to NYPD and other federal groups to work this case to the end IMO.

What is interesting is many non traditional news sources such as blogs, social media and magazines focused on women have picked up this story and are running with it. On the surface I think many might have been fooled by MBS strategy to 'allow' women to drive thinking that broader rights for women would follow but with more we have learned via the JK case the situation below the surface particularly for women and womens rights shows little change over a very long period of time and I think many in the West find this shocking and disturbing particularly given the youth of MBS.

 

[katydid23]

I just saw a story on the local news, here in Los Angeles. And the reporter hinted that it could be a familial honor killing, as we have seen other here in the past.

 

[K_Z]

Just one question for you if you don't mind. Do you have a sense of how the fact that this family seems to be or means and from Jeddah (Jeddah - Wikipedia) might play into this situation in terms of how religious or perhaps not the family might be? I'm trying to better understand the cultural differences between the major cities in KSA and if there is a meaningful cultural/religious difference between Jeddah and say Riyahd (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riyadh)? On the surface both cities appear cosmopolitan but I realize its all relative as we are dealing with KSA!

I will tell you that my opinion is that Riyadh is much, much more conservative than, for example, Dhahran-- wjich is quite near to Bahrain via the causeway. Bahrain is a playground for many in then Dammam/ Dhahran/ Al Khobar coastal area. I was only in Jeddah briefly, so I can't make a comparison. But it's right next door to Mecca, so I suspect it's pretty conservative.

As an example, I had to cover more completely in Riyadh than in coastal areas. (Had to cover my head there, even as a western woman.) I could go about bare headed in coastal areas near Bahrain.

On the causeway betweeen KSA and Bahrain it's quite common to look over and see women in adjacent cars taking off their abayas and headscarves in prep for shopping and night life in Bahrain.