NY - Twins, boy and girl, 5, found dead in Bronx apartment, no signs of obvious trauma, Mount Hope, 18 Dec 2023

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One does not expect it to take three months to conclude that the children were smothered. Perhaps LE waited while they ruled out other causes.
I have a feeling that authorities knew this all along, and needed to get the full tox screen back before they could issue a final statement.

RIP, sweet children. You didn't deserve this.
 
I didn't even know children older than toddler age could suffocate in their sleep like this. Were they under some kind of exceptionally heavy or weighted blanket? You'd think that would have been mentioned if that were the case.
 
I didn't even know children older than toddler age could suffocate in their sleep like this. Were they under some kind of exceptionally heavy or weighted blanket? You'd think that would have been mentioned if that were the case.
Homicide.

So so so unfair. Two bright lights extinguished mercilessly.
 
Well, I'd love to say I'm completely surprised.

The unlikeliness of two children dying as they did without something like homicidal violence or poisoning was just too extreme.

I expect LE decided to keep their powder dry and waited for the return of the full tox panel before making any public announcement. It was the right thing to do. With the foam, it needed to be clear this wasn't poison, accidental or otherwise, for clarity at trial.

MOO
 
Is there a medical or legal distinction between “smothered” (which sounds intentional, i.e. putting a pillow over a person’s face) and “suffocated” (which is the term I more often see used than “smother” in the context of children dying from “co-sleeping” or similar practices that are not intended to harm the child)? I am wondering if and how it could be determined that the children’s deaths were intentionally caused or if they were accidental.
 
Is there a medical or legal distinction between “smothered” (which sounds intentional, i.e. putting a pillow over a person’s face) and “suffocated” (which is the term I more often see used than “smother” in the context of children dying from “co-sleeping” or similar practices that are not intended to harm the child)? I am wondering if and how it could be determined that the children’s deaths were intentionally caused or if they were accidental.
From what I’m reading the medical examiner may be able to tell through the autopsy whether the suffocation was intentional. The link also states that there are certain indicators that investigators will look for to determine whether a child suffocation seems suspicious/intentional (child over 6 months old, history of hospital admissions, prior events all with the same caregiver).


Can an autopsy differentiate between SIDS and intentional suffocation?

Although the presence of blood in the nose and mouth of an infant may suggest smothering (5,7,8), very few signs are specific to suffocation. Investigations such as postmortem skeletal surveys, toxicology screens and careful attention to neurological and ophthalmological examination at autopsy are critical in determining whether a death is due to child abuse. Positive findings, however, would likely be due to mechanisms of injury other than suffocation alone. For these reasons, a death investigation is crucial in unexpected infant deaths.”


Much more at the link if you are interested.

 
Wow, I'm just as surprised as the rest of you.

I highly doubt this was accidental IMO- unless mom was a very large woman I can't imagine it being due to the sleeping arrangements. Makes me wonder if the symptoms the twins were showing before their deaths were just a coincidence or if something more nefarious was going on.
 
I was thinking about just why this surprised me so much when I'm usually a lot more skeptical when children die for no real reason.
I think it's a mix of 1) both kids were known to be sick before their deaths and 2) the parents were fully cooperative and neighbors, etc had nothing but good things to say about them. This is all speculation and IMO here, but I wouldn't be surprised if only one parent was behind the deaths and the other wasn't involved and genuinely thought they died from some sort of mystery illness. (Also going off the assumption the parents were the only adults living in the apartment since nobody else has been mentioned.)
 
I remember a tragic case where a woman was sleeping in the same bed as her two premature twins, and they died together from being suffocated by the blankets on the bed, but they were infants.

This sounds like it might be the worst -- a parent who resents their children's special needs and murders them.

I wonder if she had a history of mental health issues, but because they are immigrants and didn't want to jeopardize that, plus being in denial, they didn't seek help. JMO.
 
I was thinking about just why this surprised me so much when I'm usually a lot more skeptical when children die for no real reason.
I think it's a mix of 1) both kids were known to be sick before their deaths and 2) the parents were fully cooperative and neighbors, etc had nothing but good things to say about them. This is all speculation and IMO here, but I wouldn't be surprised if only one parent was behind the deaths and the other wasn't involved and genuinely thought they died from some sort of mystery illness. (Also going off the assumption the parents were the only adults living in the apartment since nobody else has been mentioned.)
I agree with your reasons about why many of us were surprised. For me though, it's also a surprise because LE was much more definitive about "facts" early on than is usually the case. Often if LE speaks at all very early on they say things like "the mother reported the twins had been sick...." Here LE statements usually were more likely of the form "the twins had been sick...." No real hedging. No hint there was ANY lack of faith in what the mother said or even that there was a "let's wait and see" attitude. The only wait and see was whether the fatal "mystery illness" could be identified.

One thing the mother did supposedly say early on was that she found the children "vomiting in their beds." I wonder how it was learned they usually slept in her bed as is now being reported?
MOO
 
I was thinking about just why this surprised me so much when I'm usually a lot more skeptical when children die for no real reason.
I think it's a mix of 1) both kids were known to be sick before their deaths and 2) the parents were fully cooperative and neighbors, etc had nothing but good things to say about them. This is all speculation and IMO here, but I wouldn't be surprised if only one parent was behind the deaths and the other wasn't involved and genuinely thought they died from some sort of mystery illness. (Also going off the assumption the parents were the only adults living in the apartment since nobody else has been mentioned.)
Re: the section bolded by me above:

Per the news, the children’s father was employed as a home health aide and slept where he worked (common for people who provide round-the-clock/overnight care), leaving the mother primarily responsible for the children. I think it’d be all too easy for one parent in this scenario to simply have no idea what went on in the home when they were away, working.
 
I was also surprised to learn this news. My only excuse is that LE was consistently quoted in every news article saying he believed this to be a tragedy... there were no signs of foul play, injuries, strangulation... no history of domestic violence... everyone says the mother was doting and involved in her children's healthcare and schooling, etcetera etcetera.

In light of the recent news, I went back through the news articles. Unfortunately, I don't believe this will be a case of accidental smothering while sleeping in the same bed for two reasons.
1) The children weren't infants.
2) Both children had been sick for more than a week (but with different symptoms) and at least one child had been exhibiting strange and erratic behavior.

And also! Despite the claims that mom was involved in the children's healthcare, she hadn't taken them to see a doctor.

Here are a few snippets from some of the earlier news articles:

No foul play suspected after twin 5-year-olds found dead inside Bronx apartment: NYPD
Kenny said the twins' mother called 911 after finding both children — a boy and a girl — cold and not breathing in her bed, where they usually slept. “Both were found foaming at the mouth and nose at the time of their discovery,” Kenny said. “Mom indicates that the last time they were seen alive was at 5 a.m.”

Deaths of 5-Year-Old Twins in Bronx Apartment Remain a Mystery
The twins, who both have special needs, had been ill in recent weeks, according to Joseph Kenny, the chief of detectives at the New York Police Department. The boy was vomiting at school on Nov. 30 and sent home. Then, on Dec. 12, he had a runny nose and other cold-like symptoms and was sent home again.

The mother, who has not been named by the police, also told officers that her daughter had recently had an ear infection, had vomited, and had been biting and spitting at school, Chief Kenny said. The mother did not take her children to see a doctor, Chief Kenny added.

Twins found dead in NYC apartment were foaming at the mouth and nose
The children's father is a home health attendant who had urged his wife to take them to the emergency room. She last saw them alive at 5am and planned to take them to the hospital when they woke up but found them lifeless at 11am.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/bronx-twins-dead-morris-heights/4964653/
Investigators said the kids had been sick for several days and were sent home from school last week; the pair again stayed home from school on Monday. It was not clear what illness the children had, but the boy had been sick for a week or two with cold symptoms, including vomiting and discharging green mucus. The girl had been vomiting, dealing with an ear infection and acting irrationally, according to police.

What exactly they were sick with was not clear. Both children were found foaming at the mouth and nose, police said. That came after reports of the children acting strangely and irrationally at school, including biting and spitting. The boy had already been diagnosed with special needs, while his sister was in the process of being diagnosed.

The father, who was not home at the time the children were found, was questioned by police Monday afternoon after rushing home from work as a home health care attendant in Port Chester. Their mother, meanwhile, had been admitted to the hospital for shock and emotional trauma.
 
The twins were Gianna and George Kantanka.

Police sources said the parents are being re-interviewed. No one is in custody and no criminal charges have been filed.


No charges yet but IMO there soon will be.

I think a number of people here were uncomfortable with both twins dying simultaneously but LE never described the mother as anything other than a victim, so our typing hands were tied regardless of any red flags. I felt another red flag rising when it was reported that mother was taken to the hospital. Not sure why exactly though, other than I tend to note extreme reactions in cases of the missing and dead. <shrug>

Also, in this case the parents were from Ghana, which presented some difficulties when trying to understand the mindset of a doting mother who didn’t call the doctor or 911 or take the twins to the hospital. MOO
 
No arrests have been made in the case.
News 12 learned Thursday the Bronx district attorney will convene a grand jury to decide what charges to pursue and against those who may be responsible.

No history of DV or CPS involvement.
 
That was unexpected! I actually gasped. I wonder if one twin suffocated from illness and she lost it and smothered the other one so he/she wouldn't be a surviving twin. That's the best benefit of the doubt I can provide and it ain't much. Poor babies.
 
That was unexpected! I actually gasped. I wonder if one twin suffocated from illness and she lost it and smothered the other one so he/she wouldn't be a surviving twin. That's the best benefit of the doubt I can provide and it ain't much. Poor babies.
BBM
I find that exceedingly unlikely.
MOO

Edited to add: I misunderstood the bolded bit, thinking you meant one twin decided to smother the other one while suffocating so that neither would survive.

The way you meant I really don't find believable either. If the mother had 'lost it' to that extent, she wouldn't have been thinking anything logical-in-her-mind (though irrational to us) about a surviving twin. She would have been overwhelmed in her emotions, maybe completely ignoring the surviving twin, but not actively killing him/her. I know people react differently under stress but under fight/flight/freeze I don't see attacking an additional child so he/she won't be alone w/o his/her twin.
All MOO.
 
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