NY - Woman to become NY firefighter despite failing crucial fitness test

[sonjay]

And? How do you know this Cpt wrote a correct answer if this information isn't provided?

All 4 answers are "correct."

Only one provides the necessary information that indicates exactly where the fire is.

 

[Dana]

Ok, I see the confusion. This is a test, not a real emergency fire call so the exact directions weren't the point. The only answer which was C) very specific. It doesn't matter if the answer said, southeast, southwest, northeast or northwest - it's just more specific than the rest of the answers given. Lower level and rear is NOT specific. HTH

 

[jjenny]

Ok, I see the confusion. This is a test, not a real emergency fire call so the exact directions weren't the point. The only answer which was C) very specific. It doesn't matter if the answer said, southeast, southwest, northeast or northwest - it's just more specific than the rest of the answers given. Lower level and rear is NOT specific. HTH

So it doesn't matter if the answer is accurate, as long as it's specific?

 

[jjenny]

All 4 answers are "correct."

Only one provides the necessary information that indicates exactly where the fire is.

How do you know this information is accurate if you are not given that?

 

[sonjay]

How do you know this information is accurate if you are not given that?

Because I read the question and the answers and I comprehended them.

 

[Cubby]

“CPAT is a minimum standard,” he said. “Minimum standards are unacceptable to be a New York City Firefighter.”
“We have tens of thousands of buildings that have been grandfathered in as building codes changed,” he added. “We have a higher number of skyscrapers that don’t have sprinkler systems than any other city in the country.”


http://thechiefleader.com/news/open...cle_d8db4814-6667-11e3-a046-0019bb30f31a.html

When it comes to firefighting, NYC is truly in a class by itself.

What does CPAT have to due with sprinkler systems? It's a physical ability test. If the test NYC is using was so superior wouldn't the 500 plus other FD's using CPAT adopt NY's standards?

It sounds to me like it's a bit of the good old boys club in NYC and the test is purposely discriminatory. I will however do some additional research on the two tests.

It wouldn't surprise me if NYC FD lost some class action suits based on what appears to be discriminatory testing.

 

[katydid23]

Again, while it might be specific, it could also be completely false. In fact there is only 25% chance it's not wrong, as there are four corners in the basement.
So they are supposed to pick an answer that could be 75% false?

No, it is NOT false, if compared to the OTHER choices. NONE of the others are correct.

 

[Soulmagent]

NYC apparently uses a different test than the standard norm for the rest of the country.

Rebecca Wax, 33, is set to graduate Tuesday from the Fire Academy without passing the Functional Skills Training test, a grueling obstacle course of job-related tasks performed in full gear with a limited air supply, an insider has revealed.

http://nypost.com/2015/05/03/woman-to-become-ny-firefighter-despite-failing-crucial-fitness-test/


The issue appears to be over the FST test, which is not standard and according to the following article more than 500 FD's across the country use the CPAT.

FST is the FDNY's own invention, a more intense version of the CPAT, often likened to an obstacle course. In the Fire Academy, probies do it about once a week. It includes some of the same elements as the CPAT: tasks like climbing stairs while carrying tools and equipment, dragging hoses, and raising ladders, as well as forcible-entry and search-and-rescue exercises.
But it's performed at a dead run — something that will get you disqualified from the CPAT — and involves lifting a lot more weight, while wearing full gear and a self-contained breathing apparatus, like the kind you'd use during an actual fire. According to the FDNY's own materials about its fitness standards, "FST requires an extremely high level of physical conditioning, well beyond what is necessary to pass CPAT."

http://www.villagevoice.com/2014-02-12/news/fdny-female-firefighters/full/

I wonder how many of the thousands of firefighters across the country who were only required to take what appears to be the national standard CPAT test would also be considered incompetent and a danger to their peers by not having taken the FST. I also wonder how Wax performed on the CPAT.

I will now never feel safe again.

I know a chick who has failed her fire fighter test 3 or 4 times now because she cannot drag 175 lbs over 20 feet. A large part of our population weights out at that ,ages 16 to 102 . I don't know what thought train you are on but I am buying all new smoke detectors because that is my best bet. The reality of it is that 100 lbs of gear plus the size of a person needs to be hauled in the most extreme cases and people need to be placed in those positions who can handle them . Not exempted into the position. They also should be made to take test yearly. I bet most of our local FD could even run a mile.

 

[katydid23]

So it doesn't matter if the answer is accurate, as long as it's specific?

RIGHT> Because it is explaining HOW to write a report and how to be accurate. That is the only answer that is accurate.

 

[Cubby]

“CPAT is a minimum standard,” he said. “Minimum standards are unacceptable to be a New York City Firefighter.”
“We have tens of thousands of buildings that have been grandfathered in as building codes changed,” he added. “We have a higher number of skyscrapers that don’t have sprinkler systems than any other city in the country.”


http://thechiefleader.com/news/open...cle_d8db4814-6667-11e3-a046-0019bb30f31a.html

When it comes to firefighting, NYC is truly in a class by itself.

From the link you posted sonjay:
The CPAT—the test to determine whether candidates are qualified to enter the Academy—was developed with fire officials across the country and validated by the U.S. Department of Justice,

So the rest of the country and the US DOJ has it wrong?

 

[katydid23]

Do you know which way this house is oriented?

For purposes of the test it does not matter.

 

[sonjay]

What does CPAT have to due with sprinkler systems? It's a physical ability test. If the test NYC is using was so superior wouldn't the 500 plus other FD's using CPAT adopt NY's standards?

It sounds to me like it's a bit of the good old boys club in NYC and the test is purposely discriminatory. I will however do some additional research on the two tests.

It wouldn't surprise me if NYC FD lost some class action suits based on what appears to be discriminatory testing.

It's not obvious? Sorry, I thought it would be obvious.

Skyscrapers without sprinkler systems means that fires spread faster and hotter through very tall structures. There is no fire suppression in the building. Which means that firefighters have to go into those buildings and run up many flights of stairs, while wearing protective suits and carrying heavy gear. And carry unconscious people down the stairs and outside. As fast as they can. Without using up all the oxygen in their canister.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

How do you know this information is accurate if you are not given that?

The exact answer is not contained in the question. If it were then it wouldn't be a test. You need to use deductive reasoning and logic. It's common sense.

 

[Cubby]

Again, while it might be specific, it could also be completely false. In fact there is only 25% chance it's not wrong, as there are four corners in the basement.
So they are supposed to pick an answer that could be 75% false?

Yes, it could be completely wrong, but they are not asking where the fire is located. They are asking the best way to *describe* where the fire is located.

Key is the question is asking how to best describe a location, and a description including direction would be a better description than say front, back or rear.

hth, but I do get what you are saying.

 

[sonjay]

From the link you posted sonjay:
The CPAT—the test to determine whether candidates are qualified to enter the Academy—was developed with fire officials across the country and validated by the U.S. Department of Justice,

So the rest of the country and the US DOJ has it wrong?

Wow, seriously, I thought it was self-evident. NYC has more skyscrapers without sprinkler systems than any other city in the country. The standard test that is considered adequate for the rest of the country is, therefore, not adequate for NYC firefighters.

Where I live, I think the tallest buildings are about 5 stories. We had a hurricane about 10 years ago that destroyed all the older buildings, so those few (maybe 3 or 4) 5-story buildings are new buildings with sprinkler systems.

Our firefighters are perfectly capable of handling firefighting duties here, but would be horrendously unqualified for the level of physical abilities needed in NYC.

 

[Dana]

So it doesn't matter if the answer is accurate, as long as it's specific?

If I stand in the street in front of my home, I can accurately point out the rear southeast corner by pointing back and to the left. If I stand in my backyard, it won't change but I'd point frontward to the right. That's being accurate. On paper, rear southeast corner is enough info to direct someone to a location since there is no real fire and no real building. In a real situation, those directions would be important because we live on streets that are north, south, east and west. If your house happens to be off those points, it would list as maybe the south southeast rear. In a real emergency no one wants to read lower level or rear b/c it doesn't help with placement of the truck or where the hose needs to be. With southeast corner, the truck can immediately assess where he should position that truck and where the hose needs to line up with not only the fire but with the hydrant.

Is this making any sense??

 

[Cubby]

It's not obvious? Sorry, I thought it would be obvious.

Skyscrapers without sprinkler systems means that fires spread faster and hotter through very tall structures. There is no fire suppression in the building. Which means that firefighters have to go into those buildings and run up many flights of stairs, while wearing protective suits and carrying heavy gear. And carry unconscious people down the stairs and outside. As fast as they can. Without using up all the oxygen in their canister.

I get that and having lived in the Chicago area, that is a risk those who choose to reside or work in a skyscraper take. Ladders on trucks don't reach that high, nor are there hoses that reach that high....... So it's more than just a test of physical strength on the effectiveness of firefighting in skyscrapers.

Other cities such as Chicago, LA..... don't use the exclusionary NYC FST test and seem to fair fine. What makes NYC skyscrapers different than those in LA or Chicago?

I fail to see and will continue to fail to see how Wax is incompetent and a danger if she meets the standards used by the rest of the country and just not used in NY.

 

[jjenny]

Yes, it could be completely wrong, but they are not asking where the fire is located. They are asking the best way to *describe* where the fire is located.

Key is the question is asking how to best describe a location, and a description including direction would be a better description than say front, back or rear.

hth, but I do get what you are saying.

Presumably the best way to describe where the fire is located would be to accurately describe where it is located.
From the question and the answer, we got no clue if C is the accurate answer. I would pick D because we know that's accurate even if less specific.

 

[jjenny]

If I stand in the street in front of my home, I can accurately point out the rear southeast corner by pointing back and to the left. If I stand in my backyard, it won't change but I'd point frontward to the right. That's being accurate. On paper, rear southeast corner is enough info to direct someone to a location since there is no real fire and no real building. In a real situation, those directions would be important because we live on streets that are north, south, east and west. If your house happens to be off those points, it would list as maybe the south southeast rear. In a real emergency no one wants to read lower level or rear b/c it doesn't help with placement of the truck or where the hose needs to be. With southeast corner, the truck can immediately assess where he should position that truck and where the hose needs to line up with not only the fire but with the hydrant.

Is this making any sense??

And if the fire is in the southwest corner? There is nothing in the question that indicates in which corner the fire is. You might be directing whoever to the wrong location with that answer, and you have no indication if this answer is accurate.

 

[Dana]

And if the fire is in the southwest corner? There is nothing in the question that indicates in which corner the fire is. You might be directing whoever to the wrong location with that answer, and you have no indication if this answer is accurate.

If the fire was in the southWEST corner then the answer would have said C) SouthWest corner. It's not the question, it's the answer that gives the most info.