NYC - 'Numerous' fatalities in train collision, fire

[al66pine]

NTSB Investigation
"On the night of the accident, the NTSB opened an investigation into the accident, and dispatched a go-team to the site.[SUP][27][/SUP] They plan to stay for a week, collecting evidence and interviewing witnesses.[SUP][28][/SUP]
Investigators said they were particularly interested in one of the crash's unusual aspects. "We do have grade-crossing accidents, and most of the time it's fatal for occupants of the vehicles, and not for train passengers," Robert Sumwalt of the NTSB told The Journal News, Westchester County's main daily newspaper. "We intend to find out what makes this accident different."[SUP][28][/SUP]

"....Three days later, the NTSB investigators announced that all safety features at the crossing—the gate, the train's horn, and a sign 65 feet (20 m) away warning drivers not to stop on the tracks—were in good working order and had functioned properly at the time of the accident. The gates had gone down 39 seconds before the train reached the crossing, they said, meaning Brody had spent almost that amount of time inside them. They would next focus on whether she was familiar with the road and whether she was using a phone at the time.[SUP][16] ". sbm bbm

^^^ from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla_train_crash.


[/SUP]

 

[Nova]

Are you really suggesting that it's impossible to figure out that a bar made of a narrow piece of wood is going to break if an SUV drives through it?

Not impossible to figure out, but I see what she means. In the grip of panic, we are all capable of illogical decisions.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

I live in an area with quite a few grade crossings. They are certainly known to be dangerous.

And yes, when learning to drive the subject of grade crossings is covered here in Pennsylvania. I cannot imagine ANYONE - whether in bumper to bumper traffic or not - choosing to sit on train tracks. Also, at least around here, the settings must be a whole lot slower for the arms to come down. The lights ALWAYS come on first, then the arms come down - slowly. And even then, there is a pause before the train comes.

Unfortunately for her and the others killed and injured, this woman made very poor decisions. Getting out of the vehicle and going to the back of the vehicle to inspect potential vehicular damage is likely what cost her her life.

I don't know - does the thought of "I am at a railroad grade crossing. The safety arm has come down onto my car. Oh, my! My vehicle must be damaged by that darned arm. I'll just get out and take a look at it" override the thought of "Oh, my, gosh! I am at a railroad grade crossing and the safety arm has come down onto my car. That means A TRAIN IS COMING!"?

And if you DO have the "A TRAIN IS COMING" realization, do you then proceed to drive further FORWARD onto the tracks?

These are all good things to question. And to share with any young drivers in the family. Perhaps dealing with grade crossings is not taught enough in driver education. Maybe people don't think enough about "what if".

Personally, the area where I live requires me to regularly cross one of the narrow, older bridges across the Allegheny River. (It is in the process of a replacement bridge being built alongside it, but the new bridge will not be completed for another year.) There is a red light at the far end of the bridge. This causes traffic to get backed up onto the bridge. If you are sitting in the middle of this bridge and a tractor-trailer comes the opposite way, you can actually feel the bridge swaying. (This is supposedly "normal" and should not be cause for alarm on this type of bridge.)

As I approaching this bridge, I always, always roll down the driver's side window. Whether it is raining, snowing, 10 above zero, I don't care. I roll that window down and keep it down until I am off the bridge.......

And yes, as far as being cautious at grade crossings, I have had people behind me blow their horn when I stopped instead of trying to beat the arm coming down. Let them blow their friggin' horn. I don't care. They're idiots.

 

[panthera]

What did she think the gate came down for? From what the guy behind her said, when she first stopped after the gate hit her car, she wasn't yet on the tracks.
After she got out of the car, she got back in and for whatever reason proceeded right onto the tracks into upcoming train.
It's hard to figure out what she was thinking.

After looking at the photo of the crossing (from the Daily Mail link) it would seem she had stopped in front of the white line which would be the place her vehicle should have been behind, which caused the crossing arm to hit her vehicle. Getting out of her SUV she was most likely more concerned with damage to her vehicle and how to get out of that rather than the imminent danger she was in with the approaching train. I am curious if she could not see the white line on the road due to weather or impending darkness or was totally unfamiliar with that rural crossing. Thankfully all of the train crossings I encounter where I live are inside the city with very well marked crossings, lights, and "alarm".

Just very tragic for all those killed and injured....



MOO

 

[al66pine]

.. photo of the crossing (from the Daily Mail link) ....I am curious if she could not see the white line on the road due to weather or impending darkness or was totally unfamiliar with that rural crossing. MOO

sbm bbm

For safe passage at rural crossings generally, does a driver need to be familiar w that crossing? If at grade, all are pretty similar, imo.
Not like diff between RR rural crossing & say a traffic roundabout, which could be easily confusing to driver encountering it for 1st time, imo.
Is there a big diff between one rural crossing at grade and another, if they both have operational flashing lights, bells, & gate arms?
(Preliminary?) info from NTSB's spokesman said all were working at time of collision, per link several posts back.

 

[panthera]

sbm bbm

For safe passage at rural crossings generally, does a driver need to be familiar w that crossing? If at grade, all are pretty similar, imo.
Not like diff between RR rural crossing & say a traffic roundabout, which could be easily confusing to driver encountering it for 1st time, imo.
Is there a big diff between one rural crossing at grade and another, if they both have operational flashing lights, bells, & gate arms?
(Preliminary?) info from NTSB's spokesman said all were working at time of collision, per link several posts back.

Agree with your statement, however, what I had in mind more or less was unfamiliarity with where the white line was that she was supposed to stay behind to stop at the tracks. I am still having difficulty understanding how she got stuck on the wrong side in the first place since the red lights flash with enough warning that the wooden arms are going to go down that she should have been able to stop before they did...unless she thought she could beat them on the other side of the tracks.

MOO

 

[jjenny]

My understanding of it is as she was driving through, the gate arm came down on top of her car. Which is why she stopped and got out of the car. I don't think she was trying to stop at while line. At the time she stopped, her car was not yet on the tracks, but her front bumper was at the edge of the tracks. After she got back into the car, she drove it forward right onto the tracks. That I can't understand. The train had to be very close at that time. Train was honking its horn. So how could she miss the fact that the train was coming?

 

[al66pine]

;..more or less was unfamiliarity with where the white line was that she was supposed to stay behind to stop at the tracks. I am still having difficulty understanding how she got stuck on the wrong side in the first place since the red lights flash with enough warning that the wooden arms are going to go down that she should have been able to stop before they did...unless she thought she could beat them on the other side of the tracks. MOO

. bbm sbm

Repeating from post several back ---NTSB Investigation
"....Three days later, the NTSB investigators announced that all safety features at the crossing—
the gate, the train's horn, and a sign 65 feet (20 m) away warning drivers not to stop on the tracks—
were in good working order and had functioned properly at the time of the accident.
Thegates had gone down 39 seconds before the train reached the crossing, they said,
meaning Brody had spent almost that amount of time inside them
They would next focus on whether she was familiar with the road and whether she was using a phone at the time.[SUP][16] ". sbm bbm

^^^ from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla_train_crash.

Yes, from rereading NTSB info, noticed 39 seconds, which I missed on first go-round.
Cellphone or other distraction? Very poss, imo.[/SUP]

 

[jjenny]

. bbm sbm

Repeating from post several back ---NTSB Investigation
"....Three days later, the NTSB investigators announced that all safety features at the crossing—
the gate, the train's horn, and a sign 65 feet (20 m) away warning drivers not to stop on the tracks—
were in good working order and had functioned properly at the time of the accident.
Thegates had gone down 39 seconds before the train reached the crossing, they said,
meaning Brody had spent almost that amount of time inside them
They would next focus on whether she was familiar with the road and whether she was using a phone at the time.[SUP][16] ". sbm bbm

^^^ from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla_train_crash.

Yes, from rereading NTSB info, noticed 39 seconds, which I missed on first go-round.
Cellphone or other distraction? Very poss, imo.[/SUP]

She got out of the car to look at the gate on top of the car. That could easily take 39 seconds. She then got back in and drove the car forward onto the tracks. She either should have gone forward without getting out of the car after the gate hit it, or backed up. Instead she got out, looked at the gate, got back in and then drove forward fully onto the tracks.

 

[cuffem]

I have this feeling she may have panicked and thought she was in reverse to back away from the tracks and hit the gas that drove the suv forward.This happens with elderly people that drive into the front of businesses by hitting the gas and not in reverse.


I hope no one minds me bringing this up again,I think it is possible.Jenny I know you said only elderly people do this but I think if she finally realized she was in a serious situation with little time she could have panicked and made a simple mistake not thinking clearly and in fear.It would explain why she went forward onto the tracks and not in reverse.Please just give it some thought,she could have thought she was in reverse and she was not.

 

[panthera]

. bbm sbm

Repeating from post several back ---NTSB Investigation
"....Three days later, the NTSB investigators announced that all safety features at the crossing—
the gate, the train's horn, and a sign 65 feet (20 m) away warning drivers not to stop on the tracks—
were in good working order and had functioned properly at the time of the accident.
Thegates had gone down 39 seconds before the train reached the crossing, they said,
meaning Brody had spent almost that amount of time inside them
They would next focus on whether she was familiar with the road and whether she was using a phone at the time.[SUP][16] ". sbm bbm

^^^ from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla_train_crash.

Yes, from rereading NTSB info, noticed 39 seconds, which I missed on first go-round.
Cellphone or other distraction? Very poss, imo.[/SUP]

Agree and that is why I brought up the possibility of being unfamiliar with that road or where she was supposed to stop. I also am thinking of a possible distraction since it is very difficult to miss those flashing red lights at a RR crossing, even in inclement weather, i.e. dense fog or a blizzard (which by the photos after the accident, didn't seem to exist at the time).

MOO

 

[lawstudent]

The only good thing to come out of this is that it certainly brings a lot of focus onto the dangers of these crossings, and I bet a lot of people will be a lot more cautious.

I have to admit, I do not think it would occur to me to back up - I've never really thought about the gates or what they were made of. I rarely encounter them. If I had more time to think about it, I would realize that is the best option, but in the moment, I would never think to run into something. It's just totally against my impulses to hit something. Now that I've been able to think about it, I know I would definitely break through them if I were ever in such a situation.

I really wonder if the driver thought that was the second gate - or that she accidentally put it in the wrong gear in the panic. It's just that she isn't described as panicking, so that's why I'm wondering if she thought that was the second gate. The horn thing gets me too, but when did the train see her? It could have been a matter of seconds before it hit - she could have been back in the car by then. And if she thought it was the second gate, that would explain the horn prompting her to move forward...


Unfamiliarity with the crossing would speak to where she thought she was in relation to the tracks or gate. When I'm in an unfamiliar place at night, I can get really nervous driving because I can't always figure out the traffic patterns. I live in a busy area with very crazy roadways built for horses, not cars. Some of the intersections are insane. But when I am in a place I know well, I'm totally confident, even though i live near one of the most notorious rotaries around. I know all the weird traffic quirks and what to look out for, so I never worry about an accident. But it is easy to become disoriented, at least for me, if it is dark and I don't know how things relate to each other.

 

[jjenny]

Train engineer also says he saw her car moving onto the tracks. He pulled the breaks (4 seconds before the impact) but it takes a long time for the train to stop.

 

[IndianSummer]

This is a well written article on the area and accidents:
http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/failed-dream-easy-commute
In Westchester, where I’ve lived since 1990, Brody’s fatal error elicited sympathy, including from confident drivers. Even the most practiced of us know how fraught just a routine excursion can be. At a news conference that night, Rob Astorino, the Westchester County executive, said that his own daily commute is similar to the one that Brody was making, with a stretch along Commerce Street, where Brody’s troubles came. Commerce bends through a cemetery and also has access to two major highways, the Bronx River Parkway and the Taconic State Parkway. The intersections and turns are “very confusing for drivers,” Astorino said. In daylight, he meant. For Brody, the pressure was greater. She was navigating in the dark, and was at the head of a line of vehicles, some of them seeking alternatives to the Taconic, less than two hundred feet away, where a collision had happened not long before, sealing it off as a route.....

 

[al66pine]

From Feb 4, http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/02/04/nyregion/2015-02-04-metro-north-crash.html More info & images at link.

"1The Harlem line train was heading north on the westerly of the two electrified tracks. On Commerce Street, traffic was moving slowly approaching the light at the parkway.
2 As the train approached Commerce Street, the gates came down, catching the S.U.V. between the tracks and the gates. A witness said the S.U.V. moved forward just as the train arrived around 6:30 p.m.

3The train pushed the S.U.V. a full train length down the track. Fuel from the S.U.V.’s gas tank ignited. The track’s electrified third rail was pulled up and pierced the S.U.V. and the first two cars of the train."

ETA: IDK why some in-frame captions of photo did not copy & paste.
The white 'car' icon at track is the Mercedes SUV, and the short white line to its right marks the post of the gate arm.

If 'car' icon's scale is accurate, looks like, by the point where SUV had gate-arm behind it or touching SUV's rear,
wouldn't front bumper already be overhanging track of oncoming train?
IOW, once SUV was in 'front' of gate-arm, or w gate-arm touching SUV's rear, wouldn't SUV already be in train's path,
just sitting still, it would have been hit by train - even if driver had not pulled forward? JM2cts.

 

[IndianSummer]

http://nypost.com/2015/02/06/husband-eulogizes-wife-who-caused-fatal-metro-north-crash
“Ellen was on her way to meet a new client and somehow she wound up in a strange, unfamiliar place,” said Mr. Brody, a native of South Africa, referring to the crossing on Commerce Street, one of the streets onto which an accident on the Taconic Parkway had forced traffic on Tuesday. “I once drove there in that area and I remember thinking, ‘You know, this looks like my old home in Africa,’ ” he said. “I also remember thinking, ‘Are you kidding?’ Who could imagine that a major commuter railroad runs through this"

 

[IndianSummer]

The agency also is looking into how familiar Brody was with her car and her route, whether she was using a cellphone and whether the backed-up traffic played a role.
Another major question is why did Brody get out to look at her SUV when the warning gate came down on the back of the vehicle?
An investigator tells CBS2 that Brody had just purchased the SUV and perhaps she was overly sensitive to possible damage.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/02...or-2-of-6-people-killed-in-metro-north-crash/

 

[keeponsearching]

I would like to see a video of the area at night right before a train comes.. I don't think we have the gates that come down in my area. But the bells and flashing lights are pretty showing. One time the lights and bells were going off, and backed up some traffic, but once we got closer there was no train. Pretty flat land & no trees to hide if a train was coming. I went through along with others. No gate on that one. Anther area only has a stop sign, so we must stop and look ourselves. And not to mention the train blasts there horns with each incoming traffic area. I can actually hear a horn right now and that is what made me think of that. I wonder if they are out plowing the tracks.

 

[al66pine]

http://nypost.com/2015/02/06/husband-eulogizes-wife-who-caused-fatal-metro-north-crash
“Ellen was on her way to meet a new client and somehow she wound up in a strange, unfamiliar place,” said Mr. Brody, a native of South Africa, referring to the crossing on Commerce Street, one of the streets onto which an accident on the Taconic Parkway had forced traffic on Tuesday. “I once drove there in that area and I remember thinking, ‘You know, this looks like my old home in Africa,’ ” he said. “I also remember thinking, ‘Are you kidding?’ Who could imagine that a major commuter railroad runs through this"

i can understand his comment about the general area - hmm, a commuter RR line seems unlikely in this rural-ish setting.
But as to Mrs. Brody's actions that night, specifically there,bells, flashing lights, and gate arms = RR crossing, no mystery.
NTSB stated all the safety features were fully operational, as linked in my earlier posts.

Nevertheless, sad, sad, sad.

 

[al66pine]

I would like to see a video of the area at night right before a train comes.. I don't think we have the gates that come down in my area. But the bells and flashing lights are pretty showing. One time the lights and bells were going off, and backed up some traffic, but once we got closer there was no train. Pretty flat land & no trees to hide if a train was coming. I went through along with others. No gate on that one. Anther area only has a stop sign, so we must stop and look ourselves. And not to mention the train blasts there horns with each incoming traffic area. I can actually hear a horn right now and that is what made me think of that. I wonder if they are out plowing the tracks.

bbm, me too.
Seems imo, if any diff between day and night at crossing, the flashing lights s/h/bn more visible at night than in daylight.
How dark was it there at ~6:30pm?