OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue - 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #76

[SuziQ]

I hope you are right about no complaints. But, how could Jury complain? Can they do that? I am not agsinst the Prosecution, I just feel more timely direct connections are needed.

Imo, the jury shouldn't be complaining about a trial that is going accordingly. They are supposed to wait till the end to establish guilt or innocence. The judge will kick them out if they suspect the opposite is happening. You are asking the justice system to to change its procedures so you can see more timely direct connections? Imo.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I watch a trial and base my thoughts and opinions on what has been presented at trial, and AC has argued in trial from day one this was a family who were stuck together like glue and had meetings and voting round the kitchen table, so far she has not been able to provide evidence of this, as close as she has come is TC saying they had meetings she doesn't know if they voted, that testimony for me is not enough to believe that the W were having meetings about everything and voting on everything, TC said BW was "seldom" there and BW was off hauling cattle for a week at a time, throughout the period leading up to the murders and post the murders AC placed into evidence BW was off driving the truck places (via his phone evidence) as was JW and GW, so all 4 were very rarely at home together and I doubt BW spent hardly any time at Peterson Rd pre or post the murders,

AC has shown that BW couldn't stand his boys, and chose not to live with AW whilst she continued to live with the boys, AW and BW marriage was not going well at this stage, so I can't see many kitchen table meetings going on with all those underlying family tensions, so if I go on evidence presented at trial the W were not a cohesive unit at all, and evidence presented so far has not revealed one person or piece of evidence to show that any murder discussions have taken place, jury can't infer discussions took place it has to be proved,

The case against GW so far in the trial is shoe prints were found at crime scene which AW bought, nobody so far has put said shoes on GW feet, (we are told JW will do so but we haven't heard from him yet). The wish list of guns, I need to hear the context of the conversation when the wish list is spoken by GW to see if that is evidence that he lied about wish list (still doesn't reach guilty of conspiracy to murder 8 people if all he did was lie about a list that JW had on his phone). TC didn't add anything to make him G of conspiracy to murder.

There is nothing else that puts him anywhere that he has been shown to be planning and preparing for the murders (so far in my opinion) nothing puts him at the scene, nothing puts him disposing of evidence, and for me if the only evidence of GW participating comes from JW and AW then I would have been concerned that he would be found NG and I would vote NG, but IMO this jury will vote G even if there is a lack of evidence, after all those crime scene photos, all those lethal guns held up in court, weeks of trial, 8 victims, you would have to be a strong minded juror to say the state didn't reach BARD, it is easier to say he was a Wagner, he's mixed up in it somewhere and vote G

The only people who can testify to those kitchen table meetings are Billy, Angela, Jake and George. George will not testify because he's on trial and he can' withstand cross-examination. Billy is facing a later trial and no sane prosecutor would put him on the stand. That leave---Angela and Jake, who have confessed. The prosecutors have THEIR STATEMENTS about how all this worked. When they testify, that will be evidence of how the family worked. We're just not there yet. What TC says bolsters what we will here from Angela and Jake.

We don't have all the evidence against George yet because the trial isn't over yet.

 

[SuziQ]

I hope you are right about no complaints. But, how could Jury complain? Can they do that? I am not agsinst the Prosecution, I just feel more timely direct connections are needed.

Also, the complaints I am talking about are people in this thread complaining about a trial that isn't over yet.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

They are going in chronological order. This trial is going exactly as it should be.going. The jury is doing just fine. I'm really not getting the complaints. Imo

It seems that If that were the case, every mother of every son ever accused or convicted of the crime of murder would also be in jail for conspiracy to commit murder (“he’s never been in trouble, he’s such a nice boy, he’d never do such a thing, he told me he was at a friend’s house that night, that list on his phone is just a wish list”).

Some mothers and / or other family members of murderers even continue to deny for many years, even in the face of strong evidence, that their close relative committed the crime (and sometimes even long after they are convicted and in jail). Should those relatives also be arrested, tried and convicted of conspiracy to commit murder and put in jail?

So far, the prosecution’s entire case against GW4 seems to be one of “guilt by association”. This is the well known “association fallacy”. All it proves is that GW4 was a member of the Wagner family. No crime there. Imo prosecutors need to present actual evidence that implicates GW4 in the murders

I have little doubt that prosecutors will be able to prove that GW4 may have obstructed justice or even been an accessory after the fact (lied about the list, refused to voluntarily give up phone, etc). But to convict him of conspiracy to commit murder, they need to show evidence of conspiracy to commit murder, not just evidence that his last name is Wagner, and that he’d been hanging around with the Wagner family for a year leading up to the crimes.

If GW4 is convicted of murder based only on, or only because of, the following:

— that prosecutors and the public have waited a long time
— that we have now seen how the investigation unfolded
- that each day something has stuck out
- that we’ve now been shown the steps the investigators took
-that we now know there’s been a lot of work done
- that we now know there were a lot of roadblocks
- that the prosecution was not allowed to seize GW4’s phone right away
- that the prosecution can’t rush past the groundwork that has been laid
- that some things have been ruled out, while others things have been ruled in
- that the prosecution must play a defensive game
- that the case is complicated and/or complex
- even though GW4 was the least involved
- even though GW4 was not directly part of the motive
- that LE was not able to interview GW4 right away
- that GW4 was part of the other Wagners lives that year
- that GW4 showed some of the same behaviors as his family
- that GW4 purchased “some things”
- that GW4 often worked with his dad and Jake
- that GW4 was seen running errands with them
-that GW4 lied about a list of guns on JW’s phone (many family members would lie to protect another family member who’s being investigated or charged with a crime)

And the roles each person had do not matter. And it doesn’t matter if GW4 went that night or not. And it doesn’t matter if GW4 actually shot anyone or not. And it doesn’t matter that we may not ever see a smoking gun…

It’ll be a travesty of justice. Because those things do matter.

The prosecution needs to show evidence that George is guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. Hopefully they will do so soon

All jmo

He's going to be convicted because he bought and helped modify the murder truck, made homemade silences and practiced using them, etc. etc.

 

[sunshineray]

My current opinion.
The Prosecution is too close to this case and mired in the weeds trying to stick to chronological order.
Sorry to say, my opinion, it is not going well. Jury must be lost. MO

That was what I was trying to say. I understand foundation is important for what is to come but if I was a juror I'd be a bit lost right now as to how the defendant fits.

 

[Myland]

Jmo but Angela was evening trying to save herself in this interview not worried as much about Jake as herself

 

[SuziQ]

That was what I was trying to say. I understand foundation is important for what is to come but if I was a juror I'd be a bit lost right now as to how the defendant fits.

The trial isn't over yet.

 

[justtrish]

No, I don't buy shoes.

I wish I could see her face as they brought this up.

 

[Ann99]

Imo, the jury shouldn't be complaining about a trial that is going accordingly. They are supposed to wait till the end to establish guilt or innocence. The judge will kick them out if they suspect the opposite is happening. You are asking the justice system to to change its procedures so you can see more timely direct connections? Imo.

I am not referring to the jury deciding guilt or innocence. I am referring to the jury being able to understand the importance of the various parts, (the evidence, the testimony, the interviews), as it goes along, as it is presented.
It’s only my opinion that the jury must be lost.
Im not asking the justice system to change procedures. I believe there are different ways to make important points more clear.

 

[twall]

Now going on to what shoes and clothes she would buy for her sons. She says she never buys shoes. Not buy shoes for them things fit differently.
@local12

 

[twall]

She got really quiet...lol

 

[arielilane]

Today, I wanted to assist rock star Niner with some help.

Good morning from Day 22 of the Pike Co murder trial of George Wagner IV. First up - hearing on whether defense can introduce the 4-5 hour interview with Jake Wagner. If judge doesn't allow it, it will be BCI agent Jennifer Comisford, who interviewed Angela Wagner.
These happened on May 21, 2017. Now in the hearing.
Canepa says the interview with Jake had no impact on the investigation. They had already identified Wagners as suspects and put taps on their phones and in their SUV.
Also argues law precedent says only prosecution can introduce statements by defendants or co-defendants as part of the conspiracy rules
Canepa: Nothing that Jake Wagner said that day that led to any extra investigative steps.
And how to you sort through 5 and a half hours of interview to find out how it changed the investigation. Also Jake denies it and denies that family did it - calls it disingenuous approach to try to get something into evidence not allowed.
Judge asks why statement needs to be introduced. Not impeaching Scheiderer during cross-examination.

Parker for defense: this goes against the state's case, especially since Jake and Angela have pleaded guilty to conspiracy.
Also argues defense has a right to complete case and that jury needs to be able to determine reliability. And prosecution said previously defense could introduce it during their case.
Says state conceded it could be used, but that prosecutors were upset with the timing. Concedes Jake and Angela had conspiracy at Montana border. But not conceding George was part of it.
Judge denies request to play the recording. Says it could be impeachment later on but not now.
Nash now arguing they shouldn't be able to now play the entire interview of Angela Wagner. On it she agrees she bought the shoes "for her boys."
Wilson for prosecution argues prosecution should be able to introduce co-conspiracy statements - including Angela Wagner.

Judge says defense should bring it up with objections in front of jury.
Nash is trying to get the statement from Angela "I bought those (shoes) for my boys" excluded. Says it doesn't show furtherance of conspiracy.
Want to play all 2 hours of the Angela interview. Canepa says that initially Angela denies buying shoes, then she admits she bought them for her boys but threw them away. That entire statement shows cover up.
Now Canepa objecting to defense bringing up Jake's proffer/confession. Gets as testy as it has ever been during the trial. Nash also says the defense is not conceding there was a conspiracy.
Now Scheiderer on redirect. Says they wanted to get conversation inside the SUV with wiretaps after the interviews - but there wasn't any. Then road noise prohibited hearing anything inside the car.


Next witness is BCI special agent Jennifer Comisford, who interviewed Angela Wagner at the Montana border.
Been a BCI agent for 8 years, used to work special investigations and now in environmental enforcement. Also previously a Columbus officer.
Assigned to Rhoden murders from Day 1. Then worked and traveled to and from Pike County daily for several months.
Interviewed the Wagners in Montana but also went to Virginia for interviews. Also interviewed inmates during the investigation.
Treated the interview with Wagners at border as "custodial" meaning they were treated as if they were not free to leave and given Miranda rights. They were in custody and being interrogated.

https://twitter.com/jamespilcher

 

[arielilane]

Angela Wagner consented to interview and it was recorded.
About to play it in entirety.
Agents start with soft personal questions about Alaska and what it is like
Now talking about traveling with two three year olds - Sophie and Bulvine
Watched the movie "Trolls" a lot in the car.
Agents now get it - talks about being patted down. Have read you Miranda rights. And tells her she has the right not to talk to them.
Reads aloud the agreement the Miranda form - that anything she says can be used against her.
Talking about relationship with Rhodens - Sophie had breathing problems early on and needed surgery. Angela said Jake and Hanna remained best friends after breaking off the engagement.
Angela - "Hanna called me Mom" ... says Jake and Hanna broke it off 6 months before "the incident”
Angela says Sophie would call her "mommy and her Nana" after the murders on her toy phone. Says Hanna "was a spoiled brat" when she first started hanging around Jake when she was 13.
BCI agent Rick Ward is leading the interview.
Jake wanted to have more time with Sophie as Hanna was working. And there were times they couldn't find her. Also says little Chris (Chris Rhoden Jr.) would spend a lot of time at Wagners. Also calls him spoiled
Says she didn't have much of a relationship with Chris Sr. Says he was mad when he found out Hanna was pregnant with Jake. They went four months without telling him. She took Hanna to doctor to get checked out and get vitamins etc.
Angela: never got involved with relationship with Billy and Chris Sr. - knew they were best friends and Billy was over there a lot
This is probably the first time George Wagner IV has heard his mother's voice since they were arrested in 2018.
Angela: there was no fight with Billy and Chris - they wouldn't have fought like that.
Now saying she had originally wanted to be called Nana, but then Dana got that name as the grandmother.
Says had the best relationship as possible with Hanna, a cordial relationship with Dana.
Agents ask if she ever got into it with Hanna. Angela says no. Says Hanna would try and lose weight and grow her hair out. And she would come by house and talk for 2 hours about the kids.
Billy Wagner called Hanna "his brat." Going to be his daughter even if Jake and Hanna would break up.
Conversations at home: "Hanna wasn't keeping up her end of the bargain" when it came to custody agreements. Holiday dinners on the Manley (Dana's) side of the family were at 8 a.m.
Knew other Rhodens like Kenneth and Gary. Went to one of the family 4th of July parties - but says stayed for 2 hours and left. And never went to another one. Was too wild - shooting off fireworks and smoking around kids.
Angela says she was in Air Force for 1.5 years and she partied some then. But then left under hardship to take care of her disabled dad.
Talking about fireworks that Chris Sr. would get for 4th of July parties. Went inside the houses - never sat down because she didn't like sitting in dog hair. And she never went back. Also says one of Chris Sr's dogs Chance bit Jake on the backside and tore his pants.
Asked about the murders: "I was horrified." Says Hanna came by the day before with the baby Kylie. And says Hanna teased Jake about his darker hair he had just dyed.
Knew all those people up there (on Union Hill Road and area) - says most were cousins or somehow related.
Says no one called her from the Rhoden family. She found out by watching the news.
Angela says George would hang out with Frankie Rhoden but it wasn't that close. Not the same connection to Rhodens that Jake had.
Also knows Kenneth Rhoden's dog's name - Brownie. Says she didn't know about Chris and Kenneth's marijuana plants etc. Says Billy wouldn't talk much about the Rhodens - and that she and Billy grew apart as they got older.
Says she wanted to move away to protect Sophie from questions about her mother and the Rhodens and the murders and their background.
Back to the day of the incident. She stayed home with kids during funeral and Billy Jake and George. Now saying she heard later about rumor Chris Jr. got into a fight
Now talking about all the information seen in the news and on Facebook. Saying the family sold house on Peterson Road for $200k not $165k as reported.
Why searching the farm? I have no idea. Ask them. Said BCI agents talked to Jake in driveway and that they wanted his phone. He said he needed it for work.
According to Jonathan and Ryan - something on phone wanted information. You may not see it way we see it. Jake gave them the phone. Gave them everything they needed. We told them where the stuff was.
Was angry about how they handled the stuff in the trailers. Said she called BCI agents while on the road to Alaska. All they had to do is ask we want to search. Said agents left Sophie's clothes all over the ground - not trying to hide anything
Now asking about guns: family likes them but not like we're obsessed with them. Have .22 for protection.
Now on to what she buys for her sons and grandkids. She says everything - going to ask about the shoes at Walmart.
She buys 90 percent of her stuff at Walmart. But I don't go anywhere by myself. Goes usually with George and Jake. Prosecutors stop for a 15 minute break. We're about halfway through.

https://twitter.com/jamespilcher

 

[Chelly]

Agent telling Angela they have a receipt for two pairs of shoes she purchased two weeks before murders. Agent tells Angela shoe treads match bloody foot prints left in murders.

 

[twall]

Now she remembers buying them but she throwed them away. Agents even showed her the bloody shoe print impression!

 

[SuziQ]

Ha. He got her with the shoe purchases and shoe prints at the seen. LE is saying their shoes were at the crime scene. AW backpedaling and scrambling. Wish I could see her face!

 

[SuziQ]

She got really quiet...lol

The first time that happened. Ha.

 

[twall]

Now telling her about the matched casings. Showing her lab reports. "There's no way!"

 

[Betty P]

Jmo I think I saw jury on screen this morning

Grounds for mistrial? Agree, the defense team is running out of options.

 

[Chelly]

Agent now showing Angela shell casings connecting Wagners to murder. Angela says "There is no way!"