OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue - 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #81

[rsd1200]

Very interesting old archives. Fred and Bob marriage photo, Robin age 24, Billy name change, he changed it to George Washington Wagner, explains why he is called Billy. etc...

https://mobile.twitter.com/henrikvanger2

Very interesting about George. I do have a couple of the pics, but never saw the G3 tidbit. If he was 15, that would be around '76 and that would be around the time they inc. FWF (I think). I've seen info, unverified, of another male child. That may be G3. Thank you for sharing.

I meant why did he need to sign it when Jake did? Why did they have the same document saying the same thing about their kids going to Angela if something happened to them? Because they both were heading out to commit murder and if the worst case happened and George was killed, he wanted Vine to go to Angela. I guess it's possible he just happened to think about what if I randomly die while living my life I better get this document forged, but the fact they both signed them at the same time makes me think it's because he was about to be involved in whatever Jake admitted to being involved in that night of the 21st.

The only reason I can come up with, is the reason you cam up with. He'd never want T.C. to have 'vine back. His shoddy piece of paper was worthless in a court, I do believe, had he died that night. It's worthless now. His efforts to stop her from getting him after he was arrested were worthless. Seems surface research may have been all that they did.

 

[justtrish]

I however think differently, you have to believe JW in order to convict, and in the jury instructions the Judge will read and by which the jury has to follow, he will give them an instruction about JW struck a deal for his testimony, and he has gained something in exchange for his testimony, and you (the jury) can consider this fact when weighing up JW testimony,

the defense appears to have moved from their original position in opening that GW wasn't there, I am very confused by this, as you rightly point out just being at the scenes would lead one to think GW could be convicted of one of the underlying felonies and that would lead to him being G of aggravated murder,

and by just being there he could be said to be a part of the conspiracy, so I am very confused as to the defenses position now,

IANAL so I do not know if there is anything that could be argued by the defense that allows for a person to go along to protect somebody, I highly doubt it,

I will watch (don't all laugh in the cheap seats) and wait to see what their next move is

I see your first statement differently than you. I think what they showed before Jake took the stand did show George a willing participant in living and being connected to the other 3. Witness after witness testified to how this family was one unit. Even Billy living apart from them didn't change the fact they still committed crimes together, worked together, had finances together, etc. George felt the same as the rest of his family over custody/child molesting possibilities, forged custody documents, etc. We see he warned good ole dad about BCI being there, we see him putting terror into his son about bad people taking him, we see his mom going on and on about a house she is putting in his name, we hear him telling mom how he outsmarted the BCI agent he thought was following him. What we don't hear is any attempt to separate from them. We don't hear any protest to this house being in his name, to them all living in it together, not even a question about why his mom is putting a house he hasn't seen in his name. He was present for the house fires, knew it was a scam, knew his truck was wrecked for insurance money because it was too expensive to fix, that money was flowing through his account. He bought a gun a week after the murders and if I recall correctly that was a replacement for one that was used in the crimes (same type of gun), he got a tattoo that I think raises eyebrows for sure.

Each of these things doesn't mean he's guilty, but nothing has been shown that leads me to believe he was not like his family, not just as connected, not making decisions with them, not working with them, not committing crimes with them.

Then we have Jake say he was there, he helped plan it.

Then we will have Angela say the same.

To this point the defense has just tried to in my opinion attack witnesses and many of them are victims of this family as well. I actually don't see much of a defense yet. I guess we will see when they call witnesses. So far George not shooting anyone does not mean he isn't guilty so I'm not sure what exactly the defense is here.

 

[joe jones]

I think it's important to note that in the eyes of Ohio law for these charges, it doesn't really matter who shot who, if one did shot and one didn't or if everyone shot some, or one shot everyone and both others didn't shoot at all. It matters that they were all participants in the planning, execution of the plan, and cover up/clean up after.

I think the defense tactic is to convince the jury George didn't shoot so they hope it confuses even one of them about how the charges with conspiracy work. George didn't have to shoot to be guilty on all charges. At this point, I think the stradegy is to confuse the jury, muddy the waters and hope one juror is confused and because they don't think George fired a gun that night, they will vote not guilty.

It will be important for the judge to give clear instructions on how the law is to be applied and I have faith that some jurors will understand it well enough to explain it if during deliberations some jurors are getting hung up on that.

the jury instructions are going to be long and complicated; the charge sheet is long and complicated, then the jury have to agree that the state proved every element of the crime, so it will be confusing, even after the judge has read the jury instructions, and once he has read them, he can't clarify them, so if the jury say they are confused all he can do is say the instructions are the instructions IMVHO

and I will forever be confused as to why people think the defense has a malicious intent, when it is there ethical duty to provide the best defense, they can, seems people don't think defense attorneys are allowed to do a good job if it is not them being defended,

the defense has nothing to do with confusing the jury, the state charged GW, if the jury are confused by the charge sheet, then that is one thing the defense cannot be blamed for.

Both sides agree on jury instructions, the judge reads them, off the jury go,

 

[Cool Cats]

I meant why did he need to sign it when Jake did? Why did they have the same document saying the same thing about their kids going to Angela if something happened to them? Because they both were heading out to commit murder and if the worst case happened and George was killed, he wanted Vine to go to Angela. I guess it's possible he just happened to think about what if I randomly die while living my life I better get this document forged, but the fact they both signed them at the same time makes me think it's because he was about to be involved in whatever Jake admitted to being involved in that night of the 21st.

If Angela was so afraid of George getting killed that night then she should have had him stay home. She would never ever win custody of her grandson going up against the bio mom. In fact, Tabby has him now and seems really happy on her facebook.

 

[joe jones]

can somebody give me a link to indictments my computer has decided to misbehave and has wiped loads of my files, thanks

 

[justtrish]

the jury instructions are going to be long and complicated; the charge sheet is long and complicated, then the jury have to agree that the state proved every element of the crime, so it will be confusing, even after the judge has read the jury instructions, and once he has read them, he can't clarify them, so if the jury say they are confused all he can do is say the instructions are the instructions IMVHO

and I will forever be confused as to why people think the defense has a malicious intent, when it is there ethical duty to provide the best defense, they can, seems people don't think defense attorneys are allowed to do a good job if it is not them being defended,

the defense has nothing to do with confusing the jury, the state charged GW, if the jury are confused by the charge sheet, then that is one thing the defense cannot be blamed for.

Both sides agree on jury instructions, the judge reads them, off the jury go,

Maybe not malicious intent, but I like to think even the best defense attorney doesn't want murders to walk free. Yes prosecution has to prove that, but in a case like this, it is a bit more complicated and the charges are less clear (I'll say less clear to the average person, not versed in the law like lawyers/judges are) I think many people will be confused that you can be guilty of murder without pulling a trigger. Add in someone like Jake who has pled guilty to all 8, it's just complicated and I don't think the defense would care to make it clear for them. It could be very confusing when the defense keeps highlighting irrelevant things. I think AC has came back many times to help iron those things out.

 

[justtrish]

If Angela was so afraid of George getting killed that night then she should have had him stay home. She would never ever win custody of her grandson going up against the bio mom. In fact, Tabby has him now and seems really happy on her facebook.

I agree. That is my point. He had the same signed agreement because he was there. He was heading into potential danger. If he wasn't, then I don't think there would be need for the forged documents.

 

[justtrish]

can somebody give me a link to indictments my computer has decided to misbehave and has wiped loads of my files, thanks

Here ya go!

https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Files/Briefing-Room/News-Releases/Special-Prosecutions/PikeCountyMurderIndictments.aspx

 

[Cool Cats]

can somebody give me a link to indictments my computer has decided to misbehave and has wiped loads of my files, thanks

Here ya go!

https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Files/Briefing-Room/News-Releases/Special-Prosecutions/PikeCountyMurderIndictments.aspx

Here is even more detail about the Indictments from Jake's Bill of Particulars:

Jake Wagner Bill of Particulars | PDF

Jake Wagner Bill of Particulars

www.scribd.com

Bill of Particulars

Definition of Bill of Particulars in the Legal Dictionary by The Free Dictionary

legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com

 

[joe jones]

Maybe not malicious intent, but I like to think even the best defense attorney doesn't want murders to walk free. Yes prosecution has to prove that, but in a case like this, it is a bit more complicated and the charges are less clear (I'll say less clear to the average person, not versed in the law like lawyers/judges are) I think many people will be confused that you can be guilty of murder without pulling a trigger. Add in someone like Jake who has pled guilty to all 8, it's just complicated and I don't think the defense would care to make it clear for them. It could be very confusing when the defense keeps highlighting irrelevant things. I think AC has came back many times to help iron those things out.

if you ever get the chance, it is very illuminating speaking to a defense attorney, or for me a solicitor or barrister, they do not see a successful defense as letting a person get away with their crimes, they see it as the state did not prove its case,
again, it is not the defenses job to do the states job, the state have chosen to charge GW with all these charges, with conspiracy, with felony charges that tie into the aggravated murder charges, IMO GW could have been convicted with a less complicated set of charges, that still would have put him behind bars for the rest of his life, but this is what the state has decided so this is what the jury get

the defense isn't confusing or complicating anything, they are doing their job of making the state prove GW is guilty,

 

[arielilane]

Even if the state isn’t able to place a fire arm in GW4’s hand, there’s been sufficient evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to charge him with a good portion of (there are 22 counts) charges and put him away with LWOP, even without 8 aggravated murder charges. IMO.

As we already know, OH does not require you to pull the trigger.

I see AW has a past criminal record as noted here: Pike County Court

IMO

 

[Cool Cats]

Sorry, so many more posts than usual so hard to go back and find what I want.

I think there is some confusion, if not, please disregard.

Jake's plea deal is that if he testifies to the prosecution's satisfaction then all 4 Wagners get the DP removed. All 4 Wagners were offered this deal.

So if Jake testifies to the prosecution's satisfaction the prosecution will discuss removing George's Death Penalty Specifications. It was recently mentioned in court by the prosecution that they want this discussion done privately.

It doesn't matter that George and Billy did not take this plea offer, doesn't matter that they are going to trial. If Jake fulfills his plea agreement then the DP will be removed for both George and Billy. Period.

I got the impression from some past posts that because George and Billy did not take the plea agreement, that if they are found guilty they could get the DP. Nope. The most Deering could give George is LWOP if he is found guilty of murder, same with Billy.

We have no idea if George or Billy could have gotten the plea deal Angela got. I do not think they could have gotten the plea Angie got because I believe - that the prosecution believes - that the 3 men were at the victim's homes that night. Angela got the 30 year deal - no parole no early release - only because the prosecution believes she stayed home on the night of the murders, did not go to any of the the victims's homes that night.

I even remember a recent post stating that Angie posted something (or used the phone) from Peterson Rd that night, just to make it look like they were all home that night. Again, so many posts I can't find this specific one.

I wonder when Billy's phone was moved back to FWF? He was living at FWF. I wonder why he didn't leave his phone all night at FWF where he lived? Seems more suspicious leaving it overnight at Peterson Rd.First time all 4 Wagner phones were together in 2016, so obviously he apparently he wasn't spending the night with Angela very often, if at all.

 

[rsd1200]

This was from the opening statement about the deal Jake got and offering a deal to anyone else that came forward.

And we made an offer to the rest of the individuals ... <snipped by rsd1200>


But Angela did not Angela did not minimize own involvement. In fact, she will tell you that it was her idea to begin with and that she nagged and nagged and nagged Billy to figure out a solution to the problem. The problem being that we're losing control of Sophia, right where she's over here, and we don't know what's going on with her.

This about AW has stuck with me. She didn't minimize but JW did.

I hope so!

And thanks for all the replies, everyone, I really want to know what size Billy wears and why AW only bought two pair, it doesn't fit at all with the 'kitchen table plan' JW spoke of.

And the only two pairs has bugged me. Especially since I'd think G3 would need them since he was in and out so much, and JW testified that G3 was standing near G4, at Dana's house.

Just little things but adds up over time.

 

[joe jones]

Even if the state isn’t able to place a fire arm in GW4’s hand, there’s been sufficient evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to charge him with a good portion of (there are 22 counts) charges and put him away with LWOP, even without 8 aggravated murder charges. IMO.

As we already know, OH does not require you to pull the trigger.

I see AW has a past criminal record as noted here: Pike County Court

IMO

as does BW, plus arson appears to run in the Wagner family, the conspiracy charges are going to be the hardest ones for the defense to beat,

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Even if the state isn’t able to place a fire arm in GW4’s hand, there’s been sufficient evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to charge him with a good portion of (there are 22 counts) charges and put him away with LWOP, even without 8 aggravated murder charges. IMO.

As we already know, OH does not require you to pull the trigger.

I see AW has a past criminal record as noted here: Pike County Court

IMO

Jake places a firearm in George's hands. And common sense would tell us that you don't go on a murder rampage without a weapon.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I meant why did he need to sign it when Jake did? Why did they have the same document saying the same thing about their kids going to Angela if something happened to them? Because they both were heading out to commit murder and if the worst case happened and George was killed, he wanted Vine to go to Angela. I guess it's possible he just happened to think about what if I randomly die while living my life I better get this document forged, but the fact they both signed them at the same time makes me think it's because he was about to be involved in whatever Jake admitted to being involved in that night of the 21st.

Yes. That makes sense. I hope the state emphasizes this in closing.

 

[justtrish]

if you ever get the chance, it is very illuminating speaking to a defense attorney, or for me a solicitor or barrister, they do not see a successful defense as letting a person get away with their crimes, they see it as the state did not prove its case,
again, it is not the defenses job to do the states job, the state have chosen to charge GW with all these charges, with conspiracy, with felony charges that tie into the aggravated murder charges, IMO GW could have been convicted with a less complicated set of charges, that still would have put him behind bars for the rest of his life, but this is what the state has decided so this is what the jury get

the defense isn't confusing or complicating anything, they are doing their job of making the state prove GW is guilty,

Great suggestion, it would be helpful for me to talk to a defense attorney. The view I have is largely influenced by the higher profile ones we've seen where I admit, I am emotionally charged about the crimes.

In this case, I see the smirks and attitude and feel some kind of way so that doesn't help either. I see irrelevant questions being asked and just what seems attempts to distract from the evidence. They aren't trying to prove their client innocent just muddy waters and that is where I guess I would like to see them refute evidence presented, not basically act like a politician and deflect and answer some other question nobody is even asking.

I will say on the charges being identical, I think in the case of believing they were all involved and charging conspiracy, it would have been bad to charge George with different charges. They didn't know specifics of who did what but firmly believed they all participated in it. How do they change one differently then if they believe they all participated? I think seeing Angela's charges being identical shows us that they charged them the same because they all participated, not because they believed they were all present at the murder scenes. If Jake and Angela didn't come forward to say who did what, then I think they would have proceeded and not needed to say who did what exactly in order to convict them. I actually wonder if this is made more complicated by Jake testifying. The jury didn't need to hear who shot each person in order to believe these 4 were involved and each participated.

 

[justtrish]

This about AW has stuck with me. She didn't minimize but JW did.

And the only two pairs has bugged me. Especially since I'd think G3 would need them since he was in and out so much, and JW testified that G3 was standing near G4, at Dana's house.

Just little things but adds up over time.

I don't think G3 would have wore them. He was supposed to be at Chris Srs that night. He had been in and out of his house many times. I think if anything his footprints there would be expected. I don't think any of them thought they needed tennis shoes because they might make bloody footprints. I think that was a big mistake on their part (whoever stepped in blood and tracked it around).

I really think we will hear about it soon. The defense hasn't brought it up so I suspect that is for a reason. If Billy has say a size 13 foot and those shoes don't go up to size 13 could be as simple as that. I don't see him agreeing to wear them anyway. Angela likely wasn't worried about Billy, she was worried about her boys.

 

[Myland]

Jmo didn’t Jake say he was under cr truck when he fired first shot? Look up picture of the scene that morning. Jmo

 

[Dudly]

This about AW has stuck with me. She didn't minimize but JW did.

And the only two pairs has bugged me. Especially since I'd think G3 would need them since he was in and out so much, and JW testified that G3 was standing near G4, at Dana's house.

Just little things but adds up over time.

Could be there were not matching shoes in GWIII’s size…