OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#40

[Puzzles8]

No, Im trying to catch up. Like 12 pages behind. I'll let u know once I check it out.

I am woefully behind, trying to catch up now.
All of my house guests have finally "left the building"!

 

[Trudie]

Do you think anyone was taking side bets on demo derby? horse racing?

No idea. Sooooo much to read. Dissecting the indictment, line by line. Not fun.

 

[Trudie]

Pondering on this a bit more before take the plunge. Here's a definition that states that the item can be a "thing" too;

Under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act, an unlawful debt is defined as “a debt that is (A) unenforceable under state or federal law in whole or in part as to the principal or interest because of the laws relating to usury, and (B) which was incurred in connection with the business of lending money or a thing of value at a rate usurious under state or federal law, where the usurious rate is at least twice the enforceable rate.” Proctor v. Metro. Money Store Corp, 645 F. Supp. 2d 464 (D. Md. 2009)

Unlawful Debt Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.

Unlawful Debt/Racketeering
18 U.S. Code § 1962 - Prohibited activities

All of these links we’ve found tonight are giving me a dif’ perspective. I never paid much attention to the indictments because they are really nothing. Any lawyer will say the same, IMO. Only an instrument with charges that MAY or MAY NOT stand in court. Simply a vehicle to get the ball rolling, nothing more. Especially in a state like OH that is required to get a true bill on felony crimes or the prosecutors can’t bring their case to court.
MOO

 

[Puzzles8]

Did anyone ever determine what this actually means?

“The enterprise, through a pattern of corrupt activity or the collection of an unlawful debt, to wit.........”

It’s in the indictments.

https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov...cial-Prosecutions/PikeCountyMurderIndictments

Any idea how long it takes an attorney to be verified? I’m thinking of asking a friend to get here stat to answer questions.

Are you referring to Count 22?
If so, I'll add a few more observations.
1) Time period is 1/1/2016 through 11/12/2018. What activities were still going on until the day before arrests?
2) RN, FW and John Doe are named in addition to the W4 in that indictment.
https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov...cial-Prosecutions/PikeCountyMurderIndictments

 

[Trudie]

Are you referring to Count 22?
If so, I'll add a few more observations.
1) Time period is 1/1/2016 through 11/12/2018. What activities were still going on until the day before arrests?
2) RN, FW and John Doe are named in addition to the W4 in that indictment.

Yes.

1) I really can’t comment until I’ve finished reading appx 600 bookmarked pages. Lol
2) Yup

Gotta think outside the box. Remember the motive. Custody is PART. We’re sleuthing for the “other” part. The “true” motive.
To get an indictment, it’s only necessary to reveal enough to, well, get the indictment. Then type it up in legal terms, reveal details of the charges in discovery, etc. like Nancy Grace always said, “you can indict a ham sandwich”.

Good night!

 

[rsd1200]

I kind of read this as allowing gangs to be defined as an enterprise. Though gangs are not legally organized as a LLC, they are nonetheless "an associated group of people". I am just thinking out loud and throwing it out there!
Are there any biker groups in that area?

BBM

True.

There are a couple or so, but I don't see the Ws, nor the Rs, as belonging to any biker gangs. There are two major 1% m.c. clubs in that area, according to Dayton Daily News, 2015, and they've not caused much trouble.

The Justice Department makes note of two clubs with a presence in southwest Ohio: the Outlaws, with a chapter in Dayton, and the Iron Horsemen, a national club founded in Cincinnati in the mid-1960s.

Local law enforcement officials monitor a number of motorcycle clubs active in the area but say the clubs do not pose a threat to the public.

“They’re on the radar, but they’re not a top priority because they’re not causing a lot of violence in the community,” Montgomery County Sheriff Phil Plummer said.

Watch kept on biker gangs

 

[JustaboyFromMS]

In layman's terms CRSR possibly owed BW3 a dope debt? Its cliche, but I cant think of anything else that would fit the bill. I wonder if LE uncovered evidence of the Rs owing the Ws? Am I way off base here?

 

[JustaboyFromMS]

Does anyone know the process that is about to begin? How many pretrial hearings will each defendant have approximately? How far out are we from discovery? During discovery will the media/public get copies of docs or do we have to wait until court? Once court starts will the public have access to documents/evidence as its presented in court, or will we have to wait until a verdict to get copies of everything? TIA

 

[Owutatangledweb]

Are you referring to Count 22?
If so, I'll add a few more observations.
1) Time period is 1/1/2016 through 11/12/2018. What activities were still going on until the day before arrests?
2) RN, FW and John Doe are named in addition to the W4 in that indictment.
https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov...cial-Prosecutions/PikeCountyMurderIndictments

This Indictment is pled in the alternative. There is an "or" in there. I don't think it has anything to do with lending money or betting. The pattern of corrupt activity is everything else they did. I think the RICO charges are in case they can't make the conspiracy charges stick.

 

[Owutatangledweb]

The rico charges do appear to be related to the threats on LE because the John Doe and grandmas are there. So the pattern of corrupt activity was going to continue with other Victim's if they weren't stopped.

 

[ColMustard]

“The enterprise, through a pattern of corrupt activity or the collection of an unlawful debt, to wit.........”

I think that's just the exact language used in the Ohio Revised Code pertaining to the charge of engaging in a criminal enterprise. "Collection of an unlawful debt" may not have anything to do with the Ws, it's just the verbatim quote from the code that had to be shown in the indictments. It is legalese in a sense.

The charge stems from everything listed after "..., to wit...." in the indictments, Count 22. All the things they are accused of doing, in prep for the murders, during the murders, and afterward.

I highly doubt they were enforcing debt collection on the Rhoden family.

 

[ohioexpat63]

I'm out of my league on this question but isn't RICO a fed law?

 

[JustaboyFromMS]

I'm out of my league on this question but isn't RICO a fed law?

Yes

 

[OsoTejano]

“pattern of corrupt activity”. Pattern would be more than once & perhaps quite frequent, right?

Lol, I’m thinking out loud.

IANAL, but it looks like the “pattern of corrupt activity “ need be nothing more than committing at least 2 felonies per Lawriter - ORC - 2923.31 Corrupt activity definitions. by the “enterprise” which can be 2 or more people from my understanding of the statute. The links below may shed more light on the subject.

ENGAGING IN A PATTERN OF CORRUPT ACTIVITY: STATE RICO CHARGES BECOME MORE PREVALENT IN OHIO


Supreme Court Interprets Elements Needed to Prove Corrupt Activity

 

[Sleuthinsleuther]

Unlawful debt I believe one of the families owed the other some money (for drugs IMO)
Pattern of corrupt activity could be participating in the grow op

 

[Charliegizmo49]

Did anyone ever determine what this actually means?

“The enterprise, through a pattern of corrupt activity or the collection of an unlawful debt, to wit.........”

It’s in the indictments.

https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov...cial-Prosecutions/PikeCountyMurderIndictments

Any idea how long it takes an attorney to be verified? I’m thinking of asking a friend to get here stat to answer questions.

Please give us a page and paragraph number. I don’t want to read it all again. Is it in every indictment. It’s just helpful when you pin it down. These are such depressing docs to review over and over.

 

[Trudie]

Does anyone know the process that is about to begin? How many pretrial hearings will each defendant have approximately? How far out are we from discovery? During discovery will the media/public get copies of docs or do we have to wait until court? Once court starts will the public have access to documents/evidence as its presented in court, or will we have to wait until a verdict to get copies of everything? TIA

There’s no specific pretrial number. I’m guesssing maybe 12 for ea defendant. Unless they start holding 8 hour sessions.
IMO, discovery will trickle out. Some public, some not.
Who knows if any of this will go to trial. If DP is on the table, the main purpose of the DP legal team is to preserve life, IMO. The ONLY way to do so is to plea for LWOP.
Right now, IMO, the DA is in a holding pattern. He only needs ONE of the 4 to talk to begin the domino effect.
Jmo

 

[Trudie]

I'm out of my league on this question but isn't RICO a fed law?

Sure. But it’s secondary to a State murder charge, I’d think. Moo.

 

[Trudie]

Please give us a page and paragraph number. I don’t want to read it all again. Is it in every indictment. It’s just helpful when you pin it down. These are such depressing docs to review over and over.

Lol, I didn’t want to read it again myself. I don’t have a page #. Plus, I have 400 bookmarked pages left to read.

 

[Trudie]

“The enterprise, through a pattern of corrupt activity or the collection of an unlawful debt, to wit.........”

I think that's just the exact language used in the Ohio Revised Code pertaining to the charge of engaging in a criminal enterprise. "Collection of an unlawful debt" may not have anything to do with the Ws, it's just the verbatim quote from the code that had to be shown in the indictments. It is legalese in a sense.

The charge stems from everything listed after "..., to wit...." in the indictments, Count 22. All the things they are accused of doing, in prep for the murders, during the murders, and afterward.

I highly doubt they were enforcing debt collection on the Rhoden family.

Yes. Law writers do use legalese.