OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#40

[Betty P]

The debt owed could be while Hanna May was with Jake that FW loaned the money to Big Chris for him to buy his equipment.

Not to nit-pick, but please make sure to qualify your statement with JMO or MOO, etc. so people don't assume any part of it is fact. I'm just assuming your statement that CR1 borrowed money from anyone is speculation, correct?

 

[Trudie]

Trudie, on second reading of AW's Count 22, you are correct. It does state that the pattern of corrupt activity charge is not limited to the charges listed in Counts 1 through 21. My bad. That is interesting. Technically, that gives them an opening to add other charges to the indictments that would also be covered by Count 22. Could be that was just the GJ giving them some leeway (back in August 2018) in case Junk and DeWine wanted to add more charges before the trials begin.

Since arraignment has been completed for all of the W's, is it possible prosecutors will add more charges at this stage of the game? IDK. IANAL. They probably are holding other charges and evidence in reserve in the event any of them are found not guilty. JMO, as much as I hate to say it, that's still a possibility. Juries can do crazy things.

ETA: I also think the defense attorneys are going to unleash quite a few "red herrings" in this trial to confuse jurors. They'll also try to trash the victims and make it appear they had many enemies who wanted to kill them.

Betty, remember, as I mentioned earlier, the indictment really means nothing. Only that the 4 are going to face charges. I don’t think additional charges ( if any) get added to the indictment. Since they’re already jailed on charges, they’d be served notice of an arraignment for a new offense.
If there should ever be a trial, I wouldn’t call it trashing, I’d call it an attempt to save my clients life. The DP atty is REQUIRED by law to vigorously argue. As in any DP case the victim fams’ are going to have input, do they prefer a plea or the DP? And, the DA will be honest with them & tell them what to expect, if there is a trial. I agree, it won’t be “pretty”, but it is what it is.

 

[Trudie]

I don’t know because of the way I interpret double jeopardy. It’s difficult to explain. And is related to the primary charges. But as a stretch of myopinion the feds might have something in their back pocket.

Well, I THINK this is factual: Ohio would get first chance due to the murder charges. If someone is serving a LWOP, feds wouldn’t bring charges for an illegal biz venture, it’d be a moot point.

 

[Trudie]

Question. In Ohio do I remember correctly that certain charges have to go through the Grand Jury Process.

Yes.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Do you think anyone was taking side bets on demo derby? horse racing? *advertiser censored* fights? dog fights?

It could be money owed for drugs too.

JMO

 

[Trudie]

Not to nit-pick, but please make sure to qualify your statement with JMO or MOO, etc. so people don't assume any part of it is fact. I'm just assuming your statement that CR1 borrowed money from anyone is speculation, correct?

Lol. Is “could be” not okay?
Idk.
It could be raining. That doesn’t mean it is or not.
Soooo confusing.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Are you referring to Count 22?
If so, I'll add a few more observations.
1) Time period is 1/1/2016 through 11/12/2018. What activities were still going on until the day before arrests?
2) RN, FW and John Doe are named in addition to the W4 in that indictment.
https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov...cial-Prosecutions/PikeCountyMurderIndictments

BBM

Buying things. Spending money.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

In layman's terms CRSR possibly owed BW3 a dope debt? Its cliche, but I cant think of anything else that would fit the bill. I wonder if LE uncovered evidence of the Rs owing the Ws? Am I way off base here?

I think it is possible.

JMO

 

[Charliegizmo49]

Agree. RICO-type laws are more or less a jacked-up version of premeditation. As opposed to double jeopardy, JMO, they're just a mechanism for stacking on extra penalties like DP, LWOP or more prison time. For example, it seems it's possible to be found guilty of a murder charge, but not guilty of the "pattern of corrupt activity" charge but not vice versa. JMO, IANAL.

Yeah, seems likely, too, that feds have something in their back pocket. JMO, DeWine wants to keep them on the bench, though, unless absolutely necessary. He wants to keep control of this investigation and prosecution to avoid any other collateral effects from federal drug and/or money laundering, racketeering, etc. related charges. Those could open a much bigger can of worms, possibly bringing down some powerful people.

I agree to some extent. I get caught up indicating the Feds could file something. My reluctance is when you have to consider double jeopardy when charges are based on the same root crime. And this morning I don’t have the inclination to research it.

There are posters here that are far smarter and well versed in the issue.

Personally I think if the prosecution dies a good job these charges will be enough to convict if the evidence is strong and admissible. No deals. The Rhodens certainly didn’t get any compassion with the exception of the children and dogs.

How does anyone measure the pain and sorrow that will continue for decades as a result of these crimes? No one can. That’s the first consideration any prosecutor should think about before any deal.

It is a huge unknown how this family selfishly affected the one little girl they coveted the most, SW. AND No one has to my memory sat down with every family member to document how many health issues, quantify stress and perhaps years have been directly impacted by the Waggies.

No Deals let the trials be transparent, open and honest. It’s the best method to restore public confidence in public servants in a County known for corruption.

 

[Trudie]

We must remember, the AG/DA owe us no explanation as to motive. We all know, motive is not even a requirement in trial. We are curious creatures & want to know “why”.
IMO, DeWine, as a public servant, felt obligated to throw something out here.

Now, never for a minute have I believed the W4 killed 8 in order to have custody of a child. It appears, from all we know, they had liberal access to S. So why risk prison & NO TIME with her? Yes, I agree they did prefer to have her in their custody but HR would have had visits. So, there’d be little difference, unless they lived in AK, reducing HRs visitation time. Kids grow up. One day she will be an adult. So, are we to think they did all this for 16 years of child custody?

Some think all 8 had to die so they wouldn’t seek custody. Nonsense. There’s no obvious reason for a court to not awarded custody to JW. As Rsd posted, he had a clean record. It stands to reason, as the father, he’d get her.

Furthermore, if the reason 8 had to die, is because they potentially may go after custody, what about the rest of the family? Should they have not died, lest they seek custody?
IMO, a few of the murdered would not have sought custody of a toddler, that’d be the last thing they’d want. Anyone see a middle aged man living in a camper seeking custody of a toddler?

IMO, this is far deeper than “custody” of a child. I think it’s pure rage fueled by __________. (Fill in your own blank).

Custody played a role............but what was the actual motive?
Jmo

 

[Trudie]

I agree to some extent. I get caught up indicating the Feds could file something. My reluctance is when you have to consider double jeopardy when charges are based on the same root crime. And this morning I don’t have the inclination to research it.

There are posters here that are far smarter and well versed in the issue.

Personally I think if the prosecution dies a good job these charges will be enough to convict if the evidence is strong and admissible. No deals. The Rhodens certainly didn’t get any compassion with the exception of the children and dogs.

How does anyone measure the pain and sorrow that will continue for decades as a result of these crimes? No one can. That’s the first consideration any prosecutor should think about before any deal.

Every murder leaves a lasting impact.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

We must remember, the AG/DA owe us no explanation as to motive. We all know, motive is not even a requirement in trial. We are curious creatures & want to know “why”.
IMO, DeWine, as a public servant, felt obligated to throw something out here.

Now, never for a minute have I believed the W4 killed 8 in order to have custody of a child. It appears, from all we know, they had liberal access to S. So why risk prison & NO TIME with her? Yes, I agree they did prefer to have her in their custody but HR would have had visits. So, there’d be little difference, unless they lived in AK, reducing HRs visitation time. Kids grow up. One day she will be an adult. So, are we to think they did all this for 16 years of child custody?

Some think all 8 had to die so they wouldn’t seek custody. Nonsense. There’s no obvious reason for a court to not awarded custody to JW. As Rsd posted, he had a clean record. It stands to reason, as the father, he’d get her.

Furthermore, if the reason 8 had to die, is because they potentially may go after custody, what about the rest of the family? Should they have not died, lest they seek custody?
IMO, a few of the murdered would not have sought custody of a toddler, that’d be the last thing they’d want. Anyone see a middle aged man living in a camper seeking custody of a toddler?

IMO, this is far deeper than “custody” of a child. I think it’s pure rage fueled by __________. (Fill in your own blank).

Custody played a role............but what was the actual motive?
Jmo

There’s not often an answer that makes sense to the why’s of why someone or a group of people kill for custody. The motive for most murders lacks logic. Why did Josh Powell murder his two children and set the house on fire with him and the two kids inside, after his wife had mysteriously went missing years prior and has never been found? Why did Chris Watts murder his wife, unborn child and two daughters? There are examples and cases world wide of murders that surround child custody and domestic problems. IMO, the Rhodens appears differently to most because of the number of victims and crime scenes. This situation doesn’t fit the “norm” in these types of murders. I truly feel at the end of the day, this case is no different than others with similar motives. It is probably more bizarre because it’s like modern day Hatfields and McCoys.

Would we think differently if all 8 victims had been found murdered in the same home? Would it be easier to accept custody as a motive, because then it would be easier to understand and make sense in our own minds? Hypothetically, put all 8 victims living in one home together. If someone goes into a home to kill someone over custody of a child, are they only going to kill that one person OR are they going to kill everyone in the home who has knowledge of what’s been transpiring?

These are just some thoughts and I’m in no way knocking anyone else’s opinions. There’s just never much sense to be made of cold blooded murder. Crimes of passion can sometimes be understood. People who murder after being abused repeatedly are sometimes easy to understand (example-The Burning Bed) however when you have a heinous crime where 8 people are murdered- 4 of them being adolescents, very young adults, and a child, with two infants left alive next to their dead parents corpses, there’s just no rationalizing why this happened. Nothing will ever make sense because it’s truly unthinkable evil.

We are logical people here trying to understand completely illogical acts and events. We need to be able to fully understand the minds of Billy, Angela, Jake, and George and I’m not sure that’s possible. JMHO. What makes the Wagners be who they are? What made them think they could get away with this? And what God do they worship that made them confident their actions were justified? What happens in the minds of people who can inflict complete carnage and go to sleep day after day, look themselves in the mirror, and go about living life after massacring an entire family? There’s so many questions and so few answers. JMHO.

 

[Betty P]

BBM

Buying things. Spending money.

JMO

Yep.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

What happens when someone or a family always gets what they want?
What happens when a young man lives a very sheltered life and meets a much younger girl who he believes is the love of his life, they have a child together, get engaged, plan a wedding and then one day that girl who is the mans world says, “ I don’t wanna be with you anymore,”?
The man is heartbroken and holds out hope. The girl moves on, not once, but twice, and from one of those new loves a child is conceived.
The man sees what he believes is the love of his life, pregnant with another mans child and in love with another man.
She’s living her life and she’s happy.
Another man is present in the life of the shared child of the two former fiancés.
The girl also has strong family support. She won’t give in and neither will her family when it comes to custody of her child.

How does an obsessed, sheltered, naive ex, with a family (including himself) that always has control, regain the control that was lost?

Just thoughts and things to ponder. Not facts.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

Not to nit-pick, but please make sure to qualify your statement with JMO or MOO, etc. so people don't assume any part of it is fact. I'm just assuming your statement that CR1 borrowed money from anyone is speculation, correct?

Yes

 

[Myland]

We must remember, the AG/DA owe us no explanation as to motive. We all know, motive is not even a requirement in trial. We are curious creatures & want to know “why”.
IMO, DeWine, as a public servant, felt obligated to throw something out here.

Now, never for a minute have I believed the W4 killed 8 in order to have custody of a child. It appears, from all we know, they had liberal access to S. So why risk prison & NO TIME with her? Yes, I agree they did prefer to have her in their custody but HR would have had visits. So, there’d be little difference, unless they lived in AK, reducing HRs visitation time. Kids grow up. One day she will be an adult. So, are we to think they did all this for 16 years of child custody?

Some think all 8 had to die so they wouldn’t seek custody. Nonsense. There’s no obvious reason for a court to not awarded custody to JW. As Rsd posted, he had a clean record. It stands to reason, as the father, he’d get her.

Furthermore, if the reason 8 had to die, is because they potentially may go after custody, what about the rest of the family? Should they have not died, lest they seek custody?
IMO, a few of the murdered would not have sought custody of a toddler, that’d be the last thing they’d want. Anyone see a middle aged man living in a camper seeking custody of a toddler?

IMO, this is far deeper than “custody” of a child. I think it’s pure rage fueled by __________. (Fill in your own blank).

Custody played a role............but what was the actual motive?
Jmo

I agree and have believed that from the laser focus point. Custody doesn’t make sense to kill all eight.jmo

 

[Betty P]

I agree and have believed that from the laser focus point. Custody doesn’t make sense to kill all eight.jmo

Custody and fear. That's where the "Hatfields & McCoys" theme comes in. The others were killed because they would identify the killers to LE. They knew CR1, FR, KR, etc. would hunt them down and kill them in return.

And, yeah, it's possible some of the Rhodens knew things that could have put the W's in jail for a very long time.

 

[Charliegizmo49]

I agree and have believed that from the laser focus point. Custody doesn’t make sense to kill all eight.jmo

DEWine said it played a part. It was a factor. It’s an easy conclusion that there were other motives.

I think the acrimony simmered for years. The Waggies played the part of being friendly well. Then after SW was born and post breakup all of what was bothering the Waggies about the Rhodens began to boil.

One Waggie or maybe two had been thinking about retributiontion for a long time. Before 2016, long before. It was carefully shared, maybe at first as a joke, to get rid of maybe Hanna. The joke soon turned into “I wish they all would die”, after they realized that if Hanna was dead, Dana or CRSR would step in and get custody.

Somewhere about the time the custody talks got serious along with the dream of moving to Alaska, Hanna dug in. She would never give her daughter up onlyvto have her 4,500 miles away.

Dana was the first to support her choice, and the rest of the family lined up behind her.

Fist Fights started and 16 yo CRJR was a fiesty 16 yo who didn’t take _____ from anybody. Especially when it involved Sister Hanna and SW. CRJR was usually bloodied up, but among the ones left standing.

ONE of the insults AW threw out during an argument was the filthy living conditions in the ramshackle trailers the Rhodens called home. Eventually And somewhere in the midst of Dana and CRSR falling in love again and the less than pristine living conditions the Waggies kept bring up, CRSR bought Dana the trailer she moved into. Life was good. And no one could accuse them of being poor trailer trash ever again.

AW WAS THE FIRST to hear of the new home as Dana thanked friends for helping paint and decorate while CRSR spent his extra time remodeling.

AW was livid. On the way from her job at the farm, she looked at the speedometer. She had her Excursion going 3200 RPMS just over 100 mph. She took her foot off the gas and hit the brakes hard. It’s a smart thing she did as over the next set of hills was Readers car coming at her. By the time she stopped sweating she was turning into the driveway, her shirt soaked from the near miss of a conversation with the sheriff. She couldn’t have faked calm that day, she could feel her heart beat, and flashes of red in her eyes. Be Cool Angela, be cool.

As she fixed supper for her boys that night she obsessively though about how much she wanted a little girl.

At 45 she was too old even though movie stars were still getting pregnant at her age. She just read all about it in the National Enquirer. Stallone’s ex wife, the blonde giant told the story of every thing she tried to have a baby with her much younger . Finally having a baby at 50.

IVF AND DOCTORS cost money they didn’t have, and even more if you wanted the magical medical miracle if you opted to choose the sex of your baby. Angela snapped back to reality, she didn’t have to deal with any of that. There was already a little girl in her life, SW. the family had to just come up with an extremely well thought out plan to get custody of her.

Every advantage the Waggies thought they had if they went to court to get SW was fixed at lightening speed by the Rhodens. The odds were in Hanna’s favor of winning when they sat down at their dining room table and the thoughts of something happening to the Rhodens wasn’t funny any more.

The custody issue alone was enough, but there were bad feelings relating to a couple of deals the Waggies were 90% sure they were paid less than they expected. A LOT LESS.

That afternoon the Waggies put ideas on the table. Within a couple of weeks had a loosely framed plan to drag in drugs and the grows it soon turned to the plan it became. AW carefully place any paper they used in a shoebox in the old desk she had gotten at a garage sale.

She soon realized the plan was much to big for one person. The Waggies would have to break it up with eAch taking a piece. Until then
The shoebox came out every time the plan was discussed along with the pens they used to write with. One of the boys suggested they put it on a thumb drive to make it easier to move parts of the plan around and to modify it as necessary.

The week before she had gone into the storage barn at the farm rummaged around in the dirt, dust and cobwebs and found her Air Force Training Manuals. She spent her free time over the next few days rereading all she had learned about strategic planning and organizational skills for specialized field ops. She remembered it all.

George4 and Jake spent 2 days entering the constantly altering plan. Neither were skilled typists and both used the single fingered hunt and peck method.

Finally late one afternoon they declared it all on the thumb drive and every paper they had written on was walked out to the burn barrel soaked with gas burned and stirred to ashes. No one would get their hand on that or ever be able to read it. The thumb drive was put in the shoebox in the back of the bottom drawer of the old desk AW bought at a garage sale.
The Waggies still used paper until the boys transferred it all to the thumb drive then the paper went straight to the burn barrel soaked with gas and forever destroyed.


ALL MY OPINION GUESS and fiction AS TO HOW THIS BEGAN. MOTIVES?

SW

money/drugs debts

Jealousy

 

[rsd1200]

IANAL, but it looks like the “pattern of corrupt activity “ need be nothing more than committing at least 2 felonies per Lawriter - ORC - 2923.31 Corrupt activity definitions. by the “enterprise” which can be 2 or more people from my understanding of the statute. The links below may shed more light on the subject.

ENGAGING IN A PATTERN OF CORRUPT ACTIVITY: STATE RICO CHARGES BECOME MORE PREVALENT IN OHIO


Supreme Court Interprets Elements Needed to Prove Corrupt Activity

It can also be State RICO charges. Not just applied to Federal. Could the enterprise be nothing more than the "Four Ws"? We know that AW has a felony. Does one of the others have a felony? A juvie felony maybe? Within the applicable time frame?

Could this be in there, just in case they need it to insure that they serve time?

From your link;

In contrast, in Ohio, it only takes two people to engage in a pattern of corrupt activity, and there is no requirement that the Defendant be found guilty of any underlying criminal offenses. These two major differences in state and federal law has caused state law enforcement and prosecutors to overuse the Ohio RICO statute, especially in the run of the mill drug crime – trafficking and even simple possession.

Convictions under the state and federal RICO statutes can lead to prolonged incarceration in state prison and even a life sentence in a federal penitentiary, loss of employment, loss of the right to vote and loss of the right to carry a firearm – just to name a few.

 

[JustaboyFromMS]

There’s no specific pretrial number. I’m guesssing maybe 12 for ea defendant. Unless they start holding 8 hour sessions.
IMO, discovery will trickle out. Some public, some not.
Who knows if any of this will go to trial. If DP is on the table, the main purpose of the DP legal team is to preserve life, IMO. The ONLY way to do so is to plea for LWOP.
Right now, IMO, the DA is in a holding pattern. He only needs ONE of the 4 to talk to begin the domino effect.
Jmo

Thanks. You seem to be spot on w/ the holding pattern. My selfishness wants access to the evidence yesterday.