OH - Tamir Rice, 12, with pellet gun, fatally shot by Cleveland LEO, Wrongful Death suit, Nov 2014

[Kimberlyd125]

I'm aware of his age. I have the same age children and older running around in my neighborhood with fake guns and they do point them. I have yet to see LE roll up and shoot them.Thank goodness for that. IMO

For your sake and the sake of your children, I REALLY hope they look like toy guns. Not a real gun as with Tamir's situation.

That's the whole issue here. Tamir's looked like a real gun. And he was pointing it at people. The 911 caller said it was scaring the s**t out of him.

So there you go.

 

[kimlynn]

For your sake and the sake of your children, I REALLY hope they look like toy guns. Not a real gun as with Tamir's situation.

That's the whole issue here. Tamir's looked like a real gun. And he was pointing it at people. The 911 caller said it was scaring the s**t out of him.

So there you go.

Not my children. Kids from the neighborhood,but I'll give them a heads up next time I see them.
IMO Tamir didn't have a chance due to the speed in which the officer acted. I think it was wrong but I do understand the events and how they unfolded.

 

[katydid23]

Kids mimic what they see and they see people pointing guns on T.V. and video games. He wasn't doing anything that any other child wouldn't be doing with a toy gun. IMO

That is not true. Even 12 yr olds know they cannot point realistic looking guns at people in public. If he didn't know that then his parents failed him.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Unfortunately we do live in a world where kids commit crime. Kids sometimes commit murder. It's not unheard of for a 12 year kid to do harm to others.

So even if the cops would have known he was a kid (I don't think they did), if he's walking around pointing what looks to be a real gun at people, he is immediately considered a real threat.

Kid or not.

 

[TheDuchess]

Yup. Here it is:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics...ations-cleveland-police-shooting-6-takeaways

From link: "The reports do not discuss the fact that Loehmann and Garmback did not administer first aid while Rice lay bleeding. Surveillance footage of the incident showed Loehmann and Garmback stood around for about four minutes without attempting to give any medical attention to Rice. When Rice's sister approached, Garmback tackled her to the ground. Later, an FBI agent arrived and began to tend to Rice's wound before an ambulance took him to a hospital. Rice died the next day."

Oh dear... Mother Jones really? OK I will take it at its worth as I have seen a similar description. However my question truly centered around what is the proper protocol regarding rendering aid to a gunshot wound when there is an officer related shorting. I don't know the answer just thought someone else might. My point is that I would like to know what their responsibility is in a case like this. I want to leave emotion out of it as I recall a lot of emotion about leaving Mike Brown in the street for 4 hours when it turned out they couldn't get to him safely.


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[katydid23]

No need to be sorry, thanks for the clarification.



This always goes directly to this argument. That black people kill more black people than cops kill black people. It's misdirection, so that we'll be forced to debate THAT instead of the very real problem of persons in authority killing unarmed black men and women, which needs to be addressed and fast if LEO wants to maintain the trust of the general population. They're losing ground and it's because things like THIS keep on happening. More and more unarmed, innocent black people are added to the list of the dead daily. And we scramble to find "reasons" why they're dead.

How about we scramble to retrain officers so it doesn't happen? How about we prosecute the officers who screw up so badly that an innocent person dies? How about we scramble to make an example of not only the bad LEOs but the good? Why don't we focus on fixing THAT problem, so that the community can at least trust law enforcement again. JMO of course.

It is not misdirection. It is part of the problem.
The reason it goes back to that problem , of young black males being violent with guns, is that it impacts the LEO's responses. Why would the cops be so worried about a young male in the park with a gun? Maybe because about 20 shootings happen every week and that is what the shooters look like? So the cops are going to be wary because they expect that a young male might pullout a gun.

They see gang members shooting each other over 20 bucks worth of weed. So they expect they will shoot a cop over nothing as well.

So YES, it does matter that the gangs are out of control and acting out in violent ways. If you want the police to pull back and be less aggressive, then maybe if we get the violent gangs under control, it will help a lot.

People here have said, ' my kids are running around playing with guns, in my middle class neighborhood.' And that may be true. But the cops aren't going to that neighborhood and picking up dead kids who have shot each other over a 10 dollar dice game, weekend after weekend.


ETA: There are estimates of about 750 felonious assaults by guns in Cleveland this year so far. Cops are on edge, obviously. You cannot take that part out of the equation when you wonder why a cop might pull out his gun and shoot.

 

[katydid23]

I'm aware of his age. I have the same age children and older running around in my neighborhood with fake guns and they do point them. I have yet to see LE roll up and shoot them.Thank goodness for that. IMO

Do you live in a neighborhood where the cops routinely see young gang members shooting each other and at people walking by? Because if not, then I don't expect they would jump to the conclusion that kids pointing guns were shooting for real. But in Cleveland there is a rash of shootings and police would be nervous:

Gang-related shootings underscore problem of retaliatory gun violence

CLEVELAND, Ohio – A feud between two East Side street gangs has punctuated another Cleveland summer marred by gun violence.

Police attribute almost two-dozen shootings to the tension between the Broadway-Fleet area rivals. Investigators believe the battle began with a robbery of drugs and money in April that spawned one retaliatory shooting after another into August.
By Aug. 22, city police had tallied 557 felonious assaults with a firearm, a 30 percent increase over 2014.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Katy, those are facts many would rather ignore. But it's real.

Sometimes it's much more PC to blame the cops who put themselves on the line daily battling the problems than to point out the real problem.

Thank you for your insightful posts.

 

[TheDuchess]

I did a little digging but can't seem to get the kinks to work regarding protocol for rendering aid. It seems different for different places. That said it is generally that you would only render aid if you can safely do so and you are trained for it. The main thing is to call for help. Untrained officers may do more harm than good by trying to render aid. Also unrelated but I think that it should be stated that Tamir was 5 ft 7 and 195 lbs. so you have a suspect that looks like a man carrying what looks like a real gun.


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[Kimberlyd125]

They had no medical supplies and were not trained to give emergency aid. That's why they didn't render aid.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/12/cleveland_police_accelerated_f.html

Tamir wasn't given first aid until a medically trained FBI agent on duty in the area arrived at the scene. The agent later told investigators that the officers on scene "wanted to do something, but they didn't know what to do," nor did they have any medical supplies in their cruiser.

 

[pappa rob]

I'm aware of his age. I have the same age children and older running around in my neighborhood with fake guns and they do point them. I have yet to see LE roll up and shoot them.Thank goodness for that. IMO

Now there are fake guns, and imitation guns. That gun you couldn't tell it from the real one from a foot away. If you give a child a fake gun it will usually have a red tip or something that shows that it's a fake. Whoever gave the child that gun to play with is at fault, not LE.

 

[kimlynn]

Now there are fake guns, and imitation guns. That gun you couldn't tell it from the real one from a foot away. If you give a child a fake gun it will usually have a red tip or something that shows that it's a fake. Whoever gave the child that gun to play with is at fault, not LE.

That's obviously a matter of opinion. LE didn't even see the gun. It was in his waistband and found after he was killed.
LE went by what the caller told them which IMO wasn't very bright.

 

[kimlynn]

They had no medical supplies and were not trained to give emergency aid. That's why they didn't render aid.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/12/cleveland_police_accelerated_f.html

Tamir wasn't given first aid until a medically trained FBI agent on duty in the area arrived at the scene. The agent later told investigators that the officers on scene "wanted to do something, but they didn't know what to do," nor did they have any medical supplies in their cruiser.

Unreal that LE wouldn't know the basics of first aid. Did they not even know how to stop bleeding by placing a towel or blanket/cloth over a wound and applying pressure. Amazing, but considering their actions at the scene I'm not surprised.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

That's obviously a matter of opinion. LE didn't even see the gun. It was in his waistband and found after he was killed.
LE went by what the caller told them which IMO wasn't very bright.

Both stated they saw the gun:

I, Timothy Loehmann, state the following:

(Snipped)
I observed the suspect pulling the gun out of his waistband with his elbow coming up. Officer Garmback and I were still yelling “show me your hands.” With his hands pulling the gun out and his elbow coming up, I knew it was a gun and it was coming out. I saw the weapon in his hands coming out of his waistband and the threat to my partner and myself was real and active.


Patrol Officer Frank Garmback:
(Snipped)

. I first saw the gun that the male had a gun about the time Ptl. Loehmann exited the cruiser. The male was pulling it from the right front area of his waistband. I thought the gun was real.

http://prosecutor.cuyahogacounty.us/pdf_prosecutor/en-US/Rice Case Report FINAL FINAL 12-28a.pdf

 

[kimlynn]

Both stated they saw the gun:

I, Timothy Loehmann, state the following:

(Snipped)
I observed the suspect pulling the gun out of his waistband with his elbow coming up. Officer Garmback and I were still yelling “show me your hands.” With his hands pulling the gun out and his elbow coming up, I knew it was a gun and it was coming out. I saw the weapon in his hands coming out of his waistband and the threat to my partner and myself was real and active.


Patrol Officer Frank Garmback:
(Snipped)

. I first saw the gun that the male had a gun about the time Ptl. Loehmann exited the cruiser. The male was pulling it from the right front area of his waistband. I thought the gun was real.

http://prosecutor.cuyahogacounty.us/pdf_prosecutor/en-US/Rice Case Report FINAL FINAL 12-28a.pdf

I watched the video (several times) and I can't imagine they had time to yell or see anything.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Unreal that LE wouldn't know the basics of first aid. Did they not even know how to stop bleeding by placing a towel or blanket/cloth over a wound and applying pressure. Amazing, but considering their actions at the scene I'm not surprised.

If you are not trained, you shouldn't render aid. You call for assistance. They did.

 

[kimlynn]

If you are not trained, you shouldn't render aid. You call for assistance. They did.

I agree. I just can't believe that they had no training. I took a class on CPR and first aid and I worked with youths at the time. It was required.

 

[K_Z]

To be clear, no amount of first aid or direct pressure would have made a bit of difference in whether or not TR survived after being shot at very close range. The only thing that gave him a slight chance was rapid transport to a level one trauma center, with advanced life support measures in progress.

His IVC (inferior vena cava) was shredded, the bullet bounced around, and lodged in his lower abdomen near his pelvis, according to the ME's report. No amount of first aid or "direct pressure" will make a difference in that situation.

I'm not debating whether or not the officers were bound by law or statute to try and render first aid. Only pointing out the facts of the ballistic injury.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I watched the video (several times) and I can't imagine they had time to yell or see anything.

I watched it too and disagree. People keep talking about 2-3 seconds. 2-3 seconds is plenty of time to yell commands and see a gun.
If he pulled the gun out as soon as the officer opened the door to get out, they saw it immediately.

That would also explain why he shot so quickly. He thought Tamir was about to shoot.

JMO

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I agree. I just can't believe that they had no training. I took a class on CPR and first aid and I worked with youths at the time. It was required.

I find it ridiculous too. But they had no training. I am trained in CPR as well but would not feel comfortable at all treating a gunshot wound to the abdomen.

Now the officers in Cleveland are being trained and carry basic supplies.

Improvement.