GUILTY OH - Two women & child killed, 13yo abducted, Apple Valley, 10 Nov 2010 #7

[gxm]

Not your imagination ,I went to history and found it.

Catfish Billy wrote:
"If Hoffman was smart he would have climbed and hollowed out the top portion of a tree (or several trees)and used a pulley system to lift the bodies up into the trees and stuff them into the top half of the trunk(s). "

Thanks mikeysmommom, I thought I was going crazy!

 

[Fyrecat]

I'm dreading the inevitable parade of psychiatrists and the schizophrenia defense. Twenty years from now, "cured" and released from the mental hospital...

He doesn't fit the description of schizophrenia at all. He's definately mentally ill, but then so was Jeffery Dahmer.

While a part of me would love to see him done away with-and I believe this is a very sick, disturbed person, I do believe that alot could be learned from studying him. The more we learn about psychopaths, the more we learn how do recognize them before tragedy occurs.

This is just my opinon. I don't want to offend anyone.

 

[Tikki]

http://www.10tv.com/live/content/lo...n-knox-county-missing-found-tree.html?sid=102

In this video the reporter stands in front of the tree and points up, looks to be 15-20 feet to the top/hollowed out part to me

Also, in this video he says the dog was found in the tree

 

[Leila]

Did the comments mention looking inside a hollow tree or is my imagination just running away?

No mention of a hollow tree. Just look up in trees.

 

[SailorMoon]

The post in question on Topix was posted the night before the bodies were found.........just hours before they were found, and MH was already under arrest and in jail. The poster, "Hopeful", said that he/she was close to the situation. I take it to mean he or she was family or a close friend. It may have even been someone from MH's family?

The poster who posted about the trees had a different name - hopeful posted about the bathtub but this one was about the trees - it was 2 name and I can't think of it....

Never mind I see it now upthread - catfish billy

 

[Lera213]

Sorry! I just hope LE is checking on the poster who said to look in the trees.He mentioned climbing and dropping them into a tree, very weird!

ETA The poster could not have been part of LE because this was said way before they knew where the bodies were.

I understand what you are saying but you know what. In the Zahra Baker case for example when LE was at the house searching the backyard. I mentioned in one of my post that they should look in a hollow tree. I said that because I was thinking how could someone hide something close by besides burring it. Well that is what I came up with. I'm not a killer, nor am I even in the same state. Maybe this person who posted about that was just thinking like I had done in the ZB case.

I don't find it so odd.

 

[Leila]

I've got to leave for an appointment, but will be back later this afternoon. If someone will let me know if it's okay, I'll post the Topix posts I've saved.

 

[chelle500]

Thanks mikeysmommom, I thought I was going crazy!

Really scares me to think someone else thought of this also. Never in my wildest dreams! They had to know something or they have a sick mind as well.

 

[nyc]

Good point. Now I'm wondering when the comments were posted. Were they posted before MH was arrested, or after? IMO, to be that close to the truth, the person had to have been told by MH, or maybe MH had fantasized out loud about "how to hide a body" and it's someone who had heard his twisted ramblings. Though you'd think they would have just gone to the police. It's just too close, and creepy, for coincidence.

I saw a local poster on FB talking about it in the discussions section a day or two before the bodies were found. They were having a similar discussion to the one we had here about how MH was obsessed with trees and that maybe the searchers should be looking up instead of on the ground and in lakes, etc. The poster seemed to know the area and said that while it would be hard to suspend bodies in trees, that if he was trying to hide a body in a tree, he would look for a hollow tree and drop it in. I don't remember that poster saying anything about using harnesses to pull up the bodies, but that might have come later. That same poster said that if a body was in a hollow tree it would be hard for cadaver dogs to find it because the scent cones they smell would be a lot higher in the air, and they might miss them entirely. It sounded to me like the poster was someone familiar with the woods and familiar with search techniques and just thinking about what could be done, rather than having inside knowledge. Dunno, though.

 

[Wondergirl]

I don't get so much chills when I read about where and how they were found, but more a terrible deep-down feeling that hits me right to the very depths of my soul.

A couple of things. The place where they were found was a long way removed from anywhere else they'd been looking, and it would have taken some time to find them without 'help.' In addition, being inside the burned out tree meant it would have taken a very detailed look at that particular tree in order to find them. Not what we all wanted to hear, I know.

:twocents:
IMHO

I have not heard of this before, Wil.J.

Was the tree "burned out"?

That is a significant piece of information, if so.

 

[Wondergirl]

What are the various ways a tree can get to a hollowed out state, anyway?

 

[Cazzie]

MH is strong (you can see his biceps in the hearing video) and his history of using a gym and climbing trees. His former employer said he had his own climbing gear, which would probably include ropes, harnesses, pulleys.

I think even LE was mentioned as saying that MH used harnesses to pull the bodies up to drop them in the tree.

Even a somewhat weak person could do this with ropes, pulleys, and a ladder. But I think MH didn't need a ladder. He could rig the body (put it in a harness or wrap it in rope), climb the tree, throw the rope over a strong branch, and pull the body up to him and drop it into the hole. Repeat 3 times.

What he did was diabolical, but this part was probably the easiest since he very likely had the right equipment.

Someone posted upthread about rigor mortis, and that probably made it easier (as long as he had a tree with strong enough branches above the hole, and a hole that was high enough off the ground.

Since all of this was accomplished, he had whatever it took. So therefore, by overtaking 2 adults, 1 male preteen, and a dog, with no accomplice (according to LE), having "the perfect tree" in a somewhat remote location, there's no question in my mind that it was premeditated.

I wish we were talking about a movie and not real life.

 

[SmoothOperator]

I just wanted to bring my post forward again, in light of the new details released. Wondering what the rest of you thought... (ETA: he had to have rolled up the bodies at the house ahead of time, knowing where he was going to put them - so that he could then drop them down...)[/QUOTE]

Depending on how tall the tree was, how strong would you have to be to get a 5'6" 130 rolled up body (SS) high enough in the air to get it down into a hollow tree trunk?

I'm thinking VERY strong, there's the adrenaline factor too, if he's that normal...

I thought I saw another picture of the tree somewhere, this is all I could find, of the hollowed out part, sorry pics arent my forte, heres a link...

http://www.10tv.com/live/content/lo...n-knox-county-missing-found-tree.html?sid=102

the video on the right has some more pics of the tree

I, too have been searching for the past hour for photos of the tree that I know that I saw last night..and cannot find them ANYWHERE!!!!!!!!!

I know I did not dream up these pix...or did I?

It was a pic looking strait on at the tree{not an aerial pic..one taken on the ground standing directly in front of the tree}..Fairly close, as its mainly the trunk of the tree that is visible in this pic.. and there were 3-4 large and filled black garbage bags that seemed to be tied off shut at the top that were in front of the tree and visible in this same pic...

Does anyone else remember seeing this pic?

 

[KAE]

With thanks to Belimom for the photo, I think what we're seeing is an intact body rolled up. The tree is lost in the background, but don't forget this is after they cut it down.

Yes, it would have taken considerable strength, but with the right equipment (don't forget the perp worked on and up trees) such as a pulley and so on, it could certainly be done.

Again, all of this speaks to a lot of planning (and perhaps some previous experience).

BBM
The didn't cut the tree down to get the bodies out. They cut a hole in the side of the tree, near the botton, to remove them.

 

[Soul125]

Did the comments mention looking inside a hollow tree or is my imagination just running away?

I read the topic posts from this guy also. I won't quote what he said, but this is basically it. The poster said that if the perp was smart he would have climbed to the top of a tree and hollowed out the top. Then to use a pulley system to hoist the bodies up and drop them into the tree so nobody would find them. That is possibly the most demented thing I have ever heard. Who sits around and thinks of something like this. :crazy:

 

[Tikki]

BBM
The didn't cut the tree down to get the bodies out. They cut a hole in the side of the tree, near the botton, to remove them.

Right.

The video I posted before

http://www.10tv.com/live/content/lo...n-knox-county-missing-found-tree.html?sid=102

shows where they cut the hole to get them out.

wish I knew how to screencap, but the stuff about the tree and the path he took is in the first 3 mins of the video...

 

[nyc]

I saw a local poster on FB talking about it in the discussions section a day or two before the bodies were found. They were having a similar discussion to the one we had here about how MH was obsessed with trees and that maybe the searchers should be looking up instead of on the ground and in lakes, etc. The poster seemed to know the area and said that while it would be hard to suspend bodies in trees, that if he was trying to hide a body in a tree, he would look for a hollow tree and drop it in. I don't remember that poster saying anything about using harnesses to pull up the bodies, but that might have come later. That same poster said that if a body was in a hollow tree it would be hard for cadaver dogs to find it because the scent cones they smell would be a lot higher in the air, and they might miss them entirely. It sounded to me like the poster was someone familiar with the woods and familiar with search techniques and just thinking about what could be done, rather than having inside knowledge. Dunno, though.

Sorry to quote my own post, but just wanted to add that I saw this discussed on the FB discussions page and it was not Catfish Billy who said it--at least that wasn't his log in name on that page. But I can't remember what it was (something ordinary, I think). I do think that someone who knows the woods, etc. could come up with this idea if they were just brainstorming about how to hide a body (especially if the perp had tree-climbing equipment).

 

[gxm]

The poster who posted about the trees had a different name - hopeful posted about the bathtub but this one was about the trees - it was 2 name and I can't think of it....

It was someone using the nic Catfish Billy. Mikeysmommom posted the comment above. It stuck in my mind because as I read it I thought: What sort of twisted mind could come up with that? Now, I suspect that the commenter knows MH and that MH had confided in him or her. They were probably trying to give LE hints. Just speculation, of course.

 

[Wil.J]

I have not heard of this before, Wil.J.

Was the tree "burned out"?

That is a significant piece of information, if so.

Okay, now I'm testing my memory. I should be keeping the photos, references and links, and I had better start doing that. However, IIRC, I recall seeing a reference to a tree that had been hit by lightning and was partially burned out (and hollowed out as a consequence) in which he would have put the bodies.

 

[AnaTeresa]

He doesn't fit the description of schizophrenia at all. He's definately mentally ill, but then so was Jeffery Dahmer.

While a part of me would love to see him done away with-and I believe this is a very sick, disturbed person, I do believe that alot could be learned from studying him. The more we learn about psychopaths, the more we learn how do recognize them before tragedy occurs.

This is just my opinon. I don't want to offend anyone.

I agree. It also sounds like MH has more going on than straight sociopathic tendencies as well, given his behaviors with leaves, trees, other animals, and the outdoors. I do think we benefit more as a society by learning how these people think and react, how spot these traits early, and in the future, how to treat people to prevent situations like this.

It reminds me of the poster from an earlier thread who was having issues with her son. If we can learn from people like MH now, it makes it easier to help people like her and her son cope with mental illness so that tragedies like this do not occur.

I also think a person who commits crimes under severe psychosis is more likely to be adequately punished by being restored to sanity and given the ability to feel remorse for the gravity of their offenses. While I realize this isn't the case for some offenders (sociopaths), there are others who commit crimes under severe mental disturbance who can be treated. I'd rather learn and benefit from it as a society by treating the offender, while the offender also has to live with what they've done, which can be much harder when "normal" emotions are restored. Guilt can be a heavy, terrible thing.