OK - Five Bever family members slain in their Broken Arrow home, 22 July 2015 *Guilty*

[SurfieTX]

Yes, Alan Hruby - also from Oklahoma

http://www.people.com/article/oklahoma-teen-confesses-killing-family

ETA: Ashton Sachs in California. His brother survived, though paralyzed.

 

[human]

Yes, Alan Hruby - also from Oklahoma

http://www.people.com/article/oklahoma-teen-confesses-killing-family

ETA: Ashton Sachs in California. His brother survived, though paralyzed.

At first I thought that was a pic of the Bever. There is a resemblance

 

[Hatfield]

I have been troubled about these murders.The question is why? for everything seemed well or was it really.I have poured over articles and facebook postings and still no clear answer.The neighbors claimed they were good parents and children were fine.I have learned you can't judge a book by it's cover.What did go on in that house,no one knows.A lot of people have said drugs,but drugs cost money.The mother seems to be very social and nurturing with lots of friend on Facebook,but the father on the other hand has only his immediate family as friends.He has been described as quiet and not very social at work.To stab and axe family members is personal and violent.It shows rage that goes beyond control.Could they have been years of physical or sexual abuse by the father? Maybe they killed the other family members because they were broken too.I don't know the answer,but these are my thoughts as of now.When I think of seclusion,I wonder what could they be hiding.

This case is very disturbing because the motive is not given out yet.

All JMO
Maybe it was a combination of contributing factors.

From reading the friends comments that was mentioned before, I have to say that extreme isolation was at least a part of the older boys issues. Not sure whether that lead to true mental disorder or not for him.

The thing that bothers me is 2 boys were involved. I dont think they both had mental disorders. Wouldnt that be very rare unless a genetic problem?

Im more inclined to think the older boy convinced the younger boy to help him and that tells me the younger boy agreed with whatever the reason was they used. Which is also a huge sign to me of the motive.

Since the older boy was not even allowed to be given a ride home from work that tells me he lived in a very controlled environment and from everything else I read and heard about, these children were overly kept insulated with little or no real freedom to mingle with other kids. That to me was a contributing factor in why the boys became resentful IMO. It was at least a part of it.

The 1 neighbor alluded to the same because he said he seldom saw them outside. Just because they were allowed outside with the Mom always being present once in a blue moon is not a sign they had any freedom. Just the opposite to me. The only time we have heard they were ever outside was just a few examples told from a neighbor and the Mom was always present so its not like they were allowed outside to play with other kids on their own.

Again hinting towards an extremely controlled environment. Perhaps that is where resentment developed as PART of the motive.

I am beginning to wonder if a combination of contribution of factors came into play here. I havent totally outruled drugs either and maybe not the normal kind. There is a possibility of huffing with paint or freon or things like that which could really twist a mind.

So listing some POSSIBLE reasons that could all contribute. The only one IMO that I am sure was at least part of the issue was an overbearing extreme isolated environment and upbringing.

Now remember it was done out of love, however, sometimes love gets twisted and I think in this case it went too far and was detrimental because it seems from what I have heard it was way too protective which hurt development. Little to no interaction with peers of same age group.

Here are examples of what could have all contributed
All JMO based on what I have read and heard on news from neighbors and the 1 friend of the older boy.

-extremely controlled isolated environment during upbringing
-possible religion teachings having some adverse messages
-possible abuse of substances. Either typical or atypical like sniffing paint or freon.
-possible mental issues. Just have a hard time believing both were mentally ill unless genetics

Here is 1 last hint. The older boy was 18. So why didnt he just run away? I think IMO he was not prepared for life so running away was not really an option because he felt he was not prepared for handling life. I dont think he felt he had the skillset to be out on his own and I think he may have blamed his uprbringing on that. If he was so isolated that he couldnt even live out on his own then he was ill preprepared. Some of it could have been his own issues of course as well. But I think this is also a sign.

Maybe he may have felt he wanted to save his younger siblings from the same fate he got. If that was the case then he felt he was already damaged which again alludes to he felt he was robbed in his upbringing.

All just speculation and trying to find answers which we do not know yet.

Whatever it ends up being the fact he convinced his younger brother to join him is a huge sign to me. A sign which shows a common denonimator of being grown up in the same house under the same rules and instructions.

ETA...Wow...sorry so long. This case really bothers me.

 

[Carrollz]

Yes, Alan Hruby - also from Oklahoma

http://www.people.com/article/oklahoma-teen-confesses-killing-family

ETA: Ashton Sachs in California. His brother survived, though paralyzed.

Those are all cases where they acted alone, also they both used guns, I was wondering if there has ever been a case like this where siblings acted together killing both their parents and other siblings (all related) and more violently as is the case here with knives.

 

[Yvettea]

It's possible the younger brother went along with the older brother, perhaps even spontaneously, in order to save his own life.

 

[SurfieTX]

Those are all cases where they acted alone, also they both used guns, I was wondering if there has ever been a case like this where siblings acted together killing both their parents and other siblings (all related) and more violently as is the case here with knives.

The only one that comes to mind is the Menendez brothers, but they, too, used guns, so doesn't fit the "profile," so to speak. I'll see if I can research it further and find anything.

 

[SurfieTX]

Although this focuses more on husband/father family annihilators, there might be some insight...

Annihilators are overwhelmingly male (95 percent, he estimates), and mostly white and middle-aged. They feel inadequate as men and have often suffered childhood abuse. Having felt powerless as kids, many try to exert strict control over their households and seek to create an idealized version of family that they never experienced.

http://www.newsweek.com/inside-mind-family-annihilators-75225

 

[Hatfield]

But most kids were homeschooled or schooled in a very small insular school systems until after World War II. I find it hard to believe this has all come about from a method that most kids in America were educated by until 60 years ago.

Respectfully, I dont know why you replied to my other post then because I thought I was perfectly clear trying to explain that it was not JUST the homeschooling but I think it was more of this particular parent's style of being too overprotective and isolating their kids.

Some direct quotes from my post in case you missed it.

"Whether someone is homeschooled or not , it is important IMO that children are allowed to mingle with their peers at least some of the time during developmental years."

"Anwyay, I am not trying to put the blame solely on the parents because there could have been some valid mental disorders, however, IMO I do think the style the parents had of sheltering their children to the extreme could have contributed to this tragedy. "

To reply to your point though, one thing to realize is back before WW II when as you say homeschooling may have been more common, then it may have been more of the "norm" like you say. If so, then an important point is in today's society it may be more of an exception. So 1 particular danger to look out for is it could make a child feel "different" and maybe make them feel "left out" OR make them feel like they are not allowed to do what other kids do which could cause some resentment.

I had mentioned I know some parents that homeschool their kids and they are doing a wonderful job and the kids seem to really be doing well. They purposely have "social events" for their kids to give them exposure to peers which I think helps with their approach and style. Everyone is different of course and I think it can be done very well , and can be very effective and helpful, and in some cases it may even be the best way to school a child.

Im just thinking this particular parent's methods and style (not just the homeschooling) may have gone to the extreme in a bad way which MAY have contributed to things. Amongst other reasons as mentioned in another long post I just wrote a few minutes ago.

Im kinda leaning lately towards perhaps multiple reasons for this tragedy.

 

[human]

It depends why people homeschool. Some do it so their children do not mingle with undesirables, as defined by the family.

 

[Carrollz]

The only one that comes to mind is the Menendez brothers, but they, too, used guns, so doesn't fit the "profile," so to speak. I'll see if I can research it further and find anything.

The Menendez brothers killed just their parents, no child siblings.

 

[Hatfield]

The only one that comes to mind is the Menendez brothers, but they, too, used guns, so doesn't fit the "profile," so to speak. I'll see if I can research it further and find anything.

The Mendendez brothers is the only case I can think of too.

I dont remember their motive but I think they also wanted their parents inheritance if I recall it correctly.

 

[Hatfield]

It depends why people homeschool. Some do it so their children do not mingle with undesirables, as defined by the family.

Agree.

For example there are certain very specific big cities with inner city school gang problems where I could understand it for sure.

From what I have read of the school district and neighborhood they lived in, they had good schools without those kinds of issues if they had chosen to enroll their children in.

 

[human]

Agree.

For example there are certain very specific big cities with inner city school gang problems where I could understand it for sure.

From what I have read of the school district and neighborhood they lived in, they had good schools without those kinds of issues if they had chosen to enroll their children in.

I always think of Ed Gein. Not that he was homeschooled. But his mother told him that the people in the town were not worthy.

Special, considering her husband was a severe alkie and Ed is one of the most notorious of serial killers.

Some people do not want their children to associate with the unsaved . Or of course people of color

 

[Hatfield]

It's possible the younger brother went along with the older brother, perhaps even spontaneously, in order to save his own life.

Excellent point. I never considered that. LE would know rather quickly if that is the case.

Wonder if we can watch for the other charges to be able to tell anything.

I hope the brother gets good lawyer representation if he was joining him out of fear.

Its such a tragedy all around. I worry so much about the surviving older girl. She is going to need a lot of help.

 

[Hatfield]

I always think of Ed Gein. Not that he was homeschooled. But his mother told him that the people in the town were not worthy.

Special, considering her husband was a severe alkie and Ed is one of the most notorious of serial killers.

Some people do not want their children to associate with the unsaved . Or of course people of color

Good point. I see what you mean. They may have had such a limited view of who is allowed to associate with their kids that basically most all of the public was considered "undesirable people".


There was another case of some kids in NYC that I need to lookup. It was on TV not long ago about them. They were kept in their apartment like prisoners until they escaped. Ill try to find some links about them. It was an interesting story. It turned out well with nobody dead luckily.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't think these horrific murders had one thing to do with being homeschooled. Being homeschooled doesn't make the parents bad nor does it make children into mass murderers or even those who only kill one. I don't know why this excuse comes up if the offender happened to be homeschooled. Where are all the other thousands or possibly millions now of homeschooled children? They certainly aren't doing violent crimes and committing mass murder. These two are just stone cold murderers, plain and simple, imo.

We are hearing conflicting reports which is usual nowadays with the media we have. There have been articles stating the children had conversations with others when they were outside playing or doing chores. And one of the father's co-workers said he was a very nice man. And if the oldest was a drug user he sure had to socialize with someone outside of his family to obtain that. So I don't believe 1/3 of what I read in the media about this family who was unmercifully slaughtered at the hands of their own sons/brothers.

It causes me stress when I see it implied that homeschooling caused this. There is absolutely no factual basis to even support such a notion and its really unfair to the dead parents who cant speak for themselves. There is absolutely no excuse why these murderers did what they did to people they pretended to love.

Our children were never homeschooled but they did have friends that were and they were very social children where some participated in sports at the high school. One thing I have noticed about homeschooled children they seem to take their education very seriously. The ones I have known have excelled not only on their test results/graduating early but in life after they graduated and most of them went to college.

I don't blame any parents nowadays for homeschooling. It has become more popular than it ever has been. Sadly, our public school systems overall have violence/bullies, and drugs can be bought right on campus. Now of course that doesn't include all public schools but its sad that our country is way down on the international list when it comes to education. Frankly, overall our public school ratings suck, and we are supposed to be one of the wealthiest countries in the world with many more opportunities than other countries.

Like I posted earlier, the large amount of familial murderers I have read about for decades who murder parents/siblings or both... attended a public high school and was seen as popular/social and well liked by other students/teachers.

Homeschooling had nothing to do with these two psychopaths who looked into the eyes of a little five year old and a seven year old and slaughtered them both. I don't believe either one of them have a mental illness. They may have some kind of disorder or be a psychopath but I don't think either will be ruled mentally insane by judicial standards.

Its sounds to me that they both wanted to become mass/serial murderer wannabees. They knew their parents stood in the way of that plan. Evidently they had obtained a weapon but had no ammo to go on their planned killing spree. They were probably planning to hit malls or theaters so they could kill as many as they could.

With their parents dead they were free to do whatever they wanted to do........even go on a killing spree. Thank God the ammo hadn't arrived yet. The ending could have been even worse.

I have absolutely no sympathy for either one of them and I hope each one of them is punished as severely as the law will allow.

Both brothers participated in the murders which means the younger brother also had weapons and if he was pushed into it he could have stabbed his older brother when his back was turned. He was in on it equally imo and I hope he is tried as an adult.

 

[Hatfield]

Here is the story I found about the "wolfpack" kids who were supposedly isolated in their apartment during much of their childhood. Some thought it was a hoax to make money off the documentary. I saw a TV show on it and the kids sounded very convincing. Seemed like really nice kids with just an overprotective father and the mother was kind of brainwashed into it as well. Not sure whether any more news came out if it was all true or not.

http://nypost.com/2015/01/27/the-wolfpack-follows-7-nyc-kids-raised-in-almost-total-isolation/

 

[bluesneakers]

Is it weird to anyone else they released the 16yo's information? I know everyone would have figured it out, but usually it seems they don't release the names of minors this early. To me, but I can't say for sure.

 

[human]

Children do not arise out of a vacuum. Just as parents take credit for successes, they have to take credit for issues.

 

[bluesneakers]

Children do not arise out of a vacuum. Just as parents take credit for successes, they have to take credit for issues.

And address them.

eta:
I'm not suggesting these parents didn't do that. I'm just continuing the thought about parents in general and the parents who were specifically mentioned upthread.