OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[HoneyWest]

I don't think the size 7 shoe print points to a woman, necessarily. I also don't believe a woman had anything to do with this. Now, could the size 7 print belong to a man? There have been several suspects talked about during the last 40 years...some have even confessed! I've never seen what their shoe sizes were.

Sonny Jack James

Ricky Green, who was 20 at the time of the murders (not to be confused with Ricky Lee Green, another murderer)

William "Bill" Stevens - confessed to the murders & had knowledge of the layout of Camp Scott - was excluded because sperm did not match sample

Dewayne Peters - spent time in prison with Bill Stevens for kidnap and rape - was also excluded because sperm did not match sample

From the Daily Oklahoman June 21, 1977 - a 40 year old w/a history of psychiatric confinement, who had once been questioned about a sex crime against a child

Karl Lee Myers - who did not do it but a convicted felon trying to make a movie says Karl confessed to him. Ironically, the convicted felon at one time also confessed to the murders.

Darren Creekmore - he ran away from Tahlequah 4th of July weekend off '77.

Steven L. Cumby - He confessed to the murders, but he was in jail in El Reno until 10:30 the day the bodies were found.

Anyone know anyone else to add?

 

[HoneyWest]

Also - one must take into account that the forensic chemist, Janice Davis was fired for tampering with crime scene samples such that a guilty verdict would be achieved. I mean like over 100 cases were affected by her. She did the first hair and sperm testing back in 77 - 78. She was caught several years later, fired, and eventually committed suicide.

So can we really count on any of the testing that was presenting in Hart's trial, even though he was found not guilty?

 

[missgulfsouth]

Also - one must take into account that the forensic chemist, Janice Davis was fired for tampering with crime scene samples such that a guilty verdict would be achieved. I mean like over 100 cases were affected by her. She did the first hair and sperm testing back in 77 - 78. She was caught several years later, fired, and eventually committed suicide.

So can we really count on any of the testing that was presenting in Hart's trial, even though he was found not guilty?

So much corruption all around. Makes me sad for the girls families who never really had a fair shot at justice. People making false confessions is such an outrage.

 

[missgulfsouth]

How would LE have known that a woman who was a lesbian was involved in the murders? Keep in mind, this was Oklahoma in 1977-78.

As for the shoe print in the mud outside tent 7, I haven't seen any evidence yet saying it was a size 7. Maybe it was, don't know for sure. There were quite a few people walking around Tent 7 that day: LE, photographers, Barbara Day, etc.

Yes, in 1977, there may have been rare cases of women murderers who hung out with pedophiles/rapists/kidnappers/murderers. How many would have gone to such great lengths, tromping through a mile of dense, hilly woodlands and fields on a hot, stormy night, to help kill 3 kids at Girl Scout Camp? What's the reward? Proving that you love your crazy boyfriend? A bottle of warm beer to drink? If such a woman were being forced to participate against her will, the dark stormy night in woods/fields would have provided her with ample opportunity to escape and get help. The town and local police station were not far away, within walking distance, as were houses to seek help.

For those who believe it was a woman co-conspirator inside the camp, how were they able to dispose of their bloody clothing without LE discovering it. From the time they were called, LE stayed on premises and restricted access for about 1 month. During that time, they searched everything. They escorted staff to retrieve their belongings and inspected and inventoried every item. Checked every vehicle that came and went.

They didn't know that a female with homosexual proclivities was involved, but they strongly suspected it, or it wouldn't have been in the line of questioning.

Going to do a bit of research on something... BRB.

Ok. Why would a woman participate in the rape and murder of children ... in the woods ... in the pouring rain for a man she "loved"? I have no idea. But the list is long. Here are just a handful of examples, and why I believe a woman would absolutely be every bit as capable and evil as a man to commit the Camp Scott murders:

Ian Bradley and Myra Hindley - 1960's
Gerald and Charlene Gallegos - 1978-80
Fred and Rosemary West - 1973-79
Cameron and Janice Hooker ... "The Girl in the Box" / Colleen Stan - 1977-1984
Christopher Wilder used women to lure victims - 1980's
Gordon and Sarah Louise Northcott ... mother and son ... Chicken Coop Murders - 1920's (Changeling movie)
Charles Starkweather and Carol Ann Fugate - 1958 - 11 rapes and murders
Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee - kidnapped and raped Elizabeth Smart
Phillip and Nancy Garrido - kidnapped and raped Jaycee Dugard

 

[MaryG12]

I wonder if Bill Stevens wore size 10 boots. And who wore size 7 sneakers? Possibly 3 killers?

Did LE ever establish that size 7 sneakers as being women's size 7, or men's size 7?


Between the missing items stolen from the nearby rancher used in the murder, and the cave, someone had to know the lay of the land and surrounding areas pretty well.


Like maybe someone who has been to that camp before?

Also, WRT the note threatening killing of campers, it was not reported to anyone until after the murders occurred. The note was found in the empty donut box a few months before the murders by a senior girl scout (not a counselor) there in April for a spring camp out. The girl thought it was a joke and threw it away. She didn't mention it to anyone until after the 3 girls were murdered, when she passed the information along. The camp director first heard of it from the senior girl scout's mother around August after the murders.




http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/PreTrialVolume2.pdf


See p 215 of pre-trial testimony


The following page has testimony from Mrs. Day that there was no effigy found at the camp. Some time earlier at another camporee, a girl thought she saw a body hanging in a tree. Camp counselors and directors investigated and found it was just some dead limbs in the tree that probably looked strange to the girl.


Here's a link to the page with all links to pre-trial testimony documents (PDF)


http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/PRETRIAL.html

So that note was never retrieved, maybe disposed of in a manner where it could not be found again (like tossed into the nearby river, or buried in the soil) so that a handwriting comparison/analysis could be done.


Was there just that one note, or was there another note?

How would LE have known that a woman who was a lesbian was involved in the murders? Keep in mind, this was Oklahoma in 1977-78.


As for the shoe print in the mud outside tent 7, I haven't seen any evidence yet saying it was a size 7. Maybe it was, don't know for sure. There were quite a few people walking around Tent 7 that day: LE, photographers, Barbara Day, etc.


Yes, in 1977, there may have been rare cases of women murderers who hung out with pedophiles/rapists/kidnappers/murderers. How many would have gone to such great lengths, tromping through a mile of dense, hilly woodlands and fields on a hot, stormy night, to help kill 3 kids at Girl Scout Camp? What's the reward? Proving that you love your crazy boyfriend? A bottle of warm beer to drink? If such a woman were being forced to participate against her will, the dark stormy night in woods/fields would have provided her with ample opportunity to escape and get help. The town and local police station were not far away, within walking distance, as were houses to seek help.


For those who believe it was a woman co-conspirator inside the camp, how were they able to dispose of their bloody clothing without LE discovering it. From the time they were called, LE stayed on premises and restricted access for about 1 month. During that time, they searched everything. They escorted staff to retrieve their belongings and inspected and inventoried every item. Checked every vehicle that came and went.

No known motive, it is much easier to say some sociopath whose target was little girls was creeping around the area getting ready to strike, but even then I am not so sure.


I know it does not explain why Camp Scott closed immediately afterward, which is why I asked about Scott property ownership.


And, why drag the bodies outside the tent?

 

[MaryG12]

It saddens me that 40 years have passed since this horrific event, no closure for the families, the more I read about this case the more questions I have, rarely do I become psychically unsettled by a crime, but this one gives me the heebie jeebies

 

[missgulfsouth]

It saddens me that 40 years have passed since this horrific event, no closure for the families, the more I read about this case the more questions I have, rarely do I become psychically unsettled by a crime, but this one gives me the heebie jeebies

Me, too. This one should have been easy to solve.

 

[HoneyWest]

Did LE ever establish that size 7 sneakers as being women's size 7, or men's size 7?


Between the missing items stolen from the nearby rancher used in the murder, and the cave, someone had to know the lay of the land and surrounding areas pretty well.


Like maybe someone who has been to that camp before?





So that note was never retrieved, maybe disposed of in a manner where it could not be found again (like tossed into the nearby river, or buried in the soil) so that a handwriting comparison/analysis could be done.


Was there just that one note, or was there another note?







No known motive, it is much easier to say some sociopath whose target was little girls was creeping around the area getting ready to strike, but even then I am not so sure.


I know it does not explain why Camp Scott closed immediately afterward, which is why I asked about Scott property ownership.


And, why drag the bodies outside the tent?

I think they were trying to dump the bodies somewhere, but were interrupted or scared off by something and dropped them where they were.

I don't believe the size 7 shoe print was ever established as women's or men's.

 

[missgulfsouth]

I think they were trying to dump the bodies somewhere, but were interrupted or scared off by something and dropped them where they were.

But Doris' body seemed very staged against the tree.

 

[HoneyWest]

It saddens me that 40 years have passed since this horrific event, no closure for the families, the more I read about this case the more questions I have, rarely do I become psychically unsettled by a crime, but this one gives me the heebie jeebies

Believe me, Mary...nobody wants this crime solved more than the people who lived through it, and the people in Oklahoma who remember it. It is still the most talked-about local event, it's spoken of in hushed tones and talked about with reverence. There are local people who have spent years and years trying to solve this case and it just goes nowhere. I believe whomever did this is dead, whether it was one person or two.

 

[HoneyWest]

But Doris' body seemed very staged against the tree.

Yes, I realize that. I'm referring to Michelle and Lori in their sleeping bags.

 

[Betty P]

I'm finding this is a better link for the pre-trial docs

http://www.campscottmurders.com/pre-trial-volumes.html

It has an index at the beginning to help find which people testified on each day.

Also bonus material at the end.

 

[HoneyWest]

Another good source is the book "Tent Number 8". It's the closest thing to the trial transcript you'll ever find. It tells the legal side of the case, you get a sense of the personalities of the lawyers involved and what each side's challenges were. It's also easy to find!

 

[missgulfsouth]

Believe me, Mary...nobody wants this crime solved more than the people who lived through it, and the people in Oklahoma who remember it. It is still the most talked-about local event, it's spoken of in hushed tones and talked about with reverence. There are local people who have spent years and years trying to solve this case and it just goes nowhere. I believe whomever did this is dead, whether it was one person or two.

Do you believe that people know who did it and refuse to say? I've never understood those who keep such secrets in order to protect evil people.

 

[missgulfsouth]

Another good source is the book "Tent Number 8". It's the closest thing to the trial transcript you'll ever find. It tells the legal side of the case, you get a sense of the personalities of the lawyers involved and what each side's challenges were. It's also easy to find!

My library doesn't carry it, unfortunately.

Does anyone here know why the 6 part YouTube documentary "Someone Cry for the Children", narrated by Johnny Cash, is nowhere to be found?

 

[missgulfsouth]

Yes, I realize that. I'm referring to Michelle and Lori in their sleeping bags.

So they were intending to take the girls and the tape and flashlight that were left by the bodies? I'm so thankful that didn't happen.

 

[Henry2326]

Do you believe that people know who did it and refuse to say? I've never understood those who keep such secrets in order to protect evil people.

it is astounding the number of cases where the locals will not talk. Sometimes its to avoid the criticism from others in town who can't see the dark side. While sometimes they feel there is more to lose for their own families by getting involved in something they don't fully understand although aware that it is a bad situation. Very sad.....

 

[missgulfsouth]

And a Minister named LaTurner who says he was with the men that night but police never listened to him ... what a convoluted mess.

 

[MaryG12]

Was there anything further released on that DNA testing?:

http://newsok.com/article/3121056/1189340605

Also post #53 of this thread regarding DA Haynes wanting to protect the families of the victims - protect them from what?

Also - why did Barbara Day disregard the threatening notes.

I have to wonder if the locals do know who did it and want to stay mum about it.

And of course the campgrounds closing, etc.

Extremely tragic all around.

 

[Betty P]

Was there anything further released on that DNA testing?:

http://newsok.com/article/3121056/1189340605

Also post #53 of this thread regarding DA Haynes wanting to protect the families of the victims - protect them from what?

Also - why did Barbara Day disregard the threatening notes.

I have to wonder if the locals do know who did it and want to stay mum about it.

And of course the campgrounds closing, etc.

Extremely tragic all around.

If you read Barbara Day's testimony at the links here ( I think hers was on day 4), she states the girl scout who found the threatening note was there a few months before the murders on a different camp out. The girl threw it away and didn't mention it to anyone until after the murders, when she told her mother,who told LE. That's when Barbara Day found out about it. Verified by Ranger Ben who lived at the Camp full time. He said he didn't hear about the girl finding the note until it was reported in the news in August after the murders.

Link

http://www.campscottmurders.com/pre-trial-volumes.html