OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[zencompass]

Every so often I look at this heinous crime. For some reason I feel pulled into it now.

Last night I couldn't sleep and ended up reading about all of the ransacking and mysterious events that happened in the years before 1977, culminating in the rapes and murders.

I think that the stories were passed around and some of the younger campers heard about the ransacking and other events before they went to camp. I wonder how many campers felt too afraid to go but didn't tell their parents.

The very fact that the events prior to 1977 were hushed up and the parents of the girls who were murdered had no knowledge of prior events is abhorrent. I can't believe the negligence of the hushing up of the events.

My feeling is that there were a number of people involved during the years of ransacking and that one person was aware of plans to rape and murder and that person or persons left that warning note during ransacking. This heinous crime was known to more than two people. I believe that at least two people committed this crime, possibly three and that it was well planned. This camp was watched by them from a distance from day one by the perpetrators, including orientation week.

I also believe that there are other girl scouts who know more events than what has been reported, including sightings of men during orientation week and up to the second night. My thought is that they feel too guilty about what happened because if they had reported other mysterious things then perhaps parents could have been called and the girls sent home before the second night. They don't want to be included of being in the "know" and had they spoken up, perhaps the rapes and murders would not have happened. I truly believe this after reading all of the articles last night.

Had I, as a parent, had been made aware of the strange goings on and especially the note, I would never have let my child go to camp there. There was knowledge and the ransackings and sightings were becoming more common.

The fact that there were no adults there is especially concerning, especially to the organization scout leaders who were aware of odd things happening.

Because of the ransackings, the notes, the sightings, all having increased, there were indeed warnings of something terrible about to happen and soon.

This heinous crime did not happen out of the blue such as an unexpected ambush. There were signs and they were escalating over the few years. I do believe that the person who left the warning note had a conscience and was hoping the note would be taken seriously. Unfortunately it was not.

That's what makes me angry - when things like this happen and there are signs and indications of trouble brewing.

This is no "urban myth" like some stories at camp and in the woods. There were opportunities to prevent this and nothing was done. No adults invited to the camp to help supervise. No older girls in the tents. From what I understand, there was heightened awareness and almost premonition (not in a superstitious way but in a human instinct way) of the scout who was awakened and then went to explore. There had to have been an ominous sense around that camp, especially with the mysterious things happening.


I will keep delving into this mystery.

 

[zencompass]

I am particularly interested in the campsite area in the forest where the police made a connection with the individuals there and the crime scene. They stated that they could not find a connection between GLH and the particular campsite. This campsite sounds like it could have been where the perpetrators, while casing out the area, stayed until they raped and killed the girls.

I have no idea whether GLH was a part of this, quite possibly, and am concerned that perhaps the authorities had "tunnel vision" when it came to GLH being guilty.

Of course I do not know and the fact that GLH was in prison and may have told some hardened criminals about the campsite and that there was no real protection for the girls is a consideration.

There is a possibility that some criminals heard of this location and acted upon it. I wish they had investigated the prisoners who were in contact with GLH. Could they have heard of this "easy prey" at Camp Scott from GLH, then planned and executed this heinous crime? To me, this is a great possibility. Were these the individuals from the campfire site the police found?

I am saying this because of what happened to the family "In Cold Blood", where fellow prisoners were told that the family had tons of cash and they ended up going there and killing the Clutter family.


"Early on the morning on November 15, 1959, paroled ex-convicts Richard Eugene Hickock and Perry Edward Smith broke into the Clutter family farmhouse just outside Holcomb, Kansas, in the southwest corner of the state.
They had been tipped off by another inmate about a safe full of cash owned by the father, Herb Clutter.

The two men broke in, and tied up Herb Clutter, along with his wife Bonnie, and their teenage children Kenyon and Nancy.

They ransacked the home, but only found fifty dollars, a pair of binoculars and a transistor radio. No safe, no cash.

That's when Smith and Hickock decided to kill the family. All four were killed by shotgun blasts to the head. Herb Clutter was also stabbed and his throat slashed." http://www.wibw.com/content/news/57-years-later-the-clutter-family-murders-401249125.html

Just a few thoughts of mine. Just my opinion.

 

[kilahchris]

I also think it is odd that Gene Leroy Hart or most men at that time would get a vasectomy. Unless Gene Leroy Hart thought by eliminating his ability to produce sperm he can go on to commit more rapes and law enforcement will not be able to prove it was him.

 

[zencompass]

Years ago when I was researching this crime, I felt that there were so many missing pieces to this puzzle of a mystery. I'm sure I am not alone believing this!

 

[zencompass]

I am, in no way, saying that I don't believe that GLH was guilty of this. I do believe that there was more than one person and possibly three, but definitely two.

 

[zencompass]

"Did Kansas prison inmate William A. Stevens really have something to do with the 1977 murders of three Girl Scouts near Locust Grove, as his co-defendant in a brutal kidnapping once alleged? Or was the former Okmulgee man a victim himself of a bizarre scheme designed to win freedom for his co-defendant and cellmate?"

"Stevens, then 22, became a key figure in the 1979 murder trial of Gene Leroy Hart when an Okmulgee woman and her son testified Stevens had come to their home the day the Girl Scouts were killed with scratches on his arms and red stains on his shoes. They also linked a flashlight found at the murder scene to Stevens."


http://newsok.com/article/2074915

 

[wfgodot]

This is no "urban myth" like some stories at camp and in the woods. There were opportunities to prevent this and nothing was done. No adults invited to the camp to help supervise. No older girls in the tents. From what I understand, there was heightened awareness and almost premonition (not in a superstitious way but in a human instinct way) of the scout who was awakened and then went to explore. There had to have been an ominous sense around that camp, especially with the mysterious things happening.

snip

Well-said. GSA should have been found liable for millions of dollars to the families.

 

[MaryG12]

Tulsa World Girl Scout Murders

The Cookie Trail

Just ominously creepy and frightening - not something I'd want to go hiking or running on

 

[fred&edna]

I spent several summers at GS camps... slept many a night in a platform tent in the wilderness. We rode horses, swam, sang those awful camp songs, used community showers and wooden latrines. And, we lived to tell about it.

The camp I attended still exists, and it appears (from a few online photos) not much has changed... several camp units with the tents spaced apart in the middle of the wilderness.

I'm surprised nothing like this happened prior or since. (Or maybe it has and I'm unaware) I have no idea what type of waiver parents sign.

How sad this case is (and has remained for sooo many years) for the families, and the counselors.

The Red Wing shoe (in court doc) mentioned by another poster caught my attention... and did I hear/read the shoe print was Size 7??

I have more reading/listening to do.

 

[zencompass]

As I mentioned in my posts today, I agree with MaryG12 who said yesterday:

" sounds like Doris Denise possibly knew something might happen - call it instinct - that perhaps she maybe picked up a negative vibration."

Doris Denise Milner did not want to go. Within the (below) article, there are statements from the camp counselor who noticed Doris Denise's "nervousness" :

http://www.tulsaworld.com/years-ago...cle_684eb15d-6f53-52b3-9cb3-53314bb59320.html

I have great belief in our human instinct or gut feeling and that it is a built-in survival tool.
When I read "The Gift of Fear" which I initially heard about on Websleuths , the book absolutely confirmed it for me.

Some people are more in tune with "reading" their gut feelings than others.

From all of the articles I read, there certainly was a heightened feeling of nervousness or fear in the air from the odd happenings, ransackings and sightings.

I don't even want to think about the "sliver of" light coming from the woods around 2 a.m. and reported the next day after the bodies were found , especially since the description of the light matched the (repaired) flashlight left at the crime scene.

 

[missgulfsouth]

As I mentioned in my posts today, I agree with MaryG12 who said yesterday:

" sounds like Doris Denise possibly knew something might happen - call it instinct - that perhaps she maybe picked up a negative vibration."

Doris Denise Milner did not want to go. Within the (below) article, there are statements from the camp counselor who noticed Doris Denise's "nervousness" :

http://www.tulsaworld.com/years-ago...cle_684eb15d-6f53-52b3-9cb3-53314bb59320.html

I have great belief in our human instinct or gut feeling and that it is a built-in survival tool.
When I read "The Gift of Fear" which I initially heard about on Websleuths , the book absolutely confirmed it for me.

Some people are more in tune with "reading" their gut feelings than others.

From all of the articles I read, there certainly was a heightened feeling of nervousness or fear in the air from the odd happenings, ransackings and sightings.

I don't even want to think about the "sliver of" light coming from the woods around 2 a.m. and reported the next day after the bodies were found , especially since the description of the light matched the (repaired) flashlight left at the crime scene.

The Titanic is a very convincing study in following ones gut instinct.

 

[wfgodot]

I have great belief in our human instinct or gut feeling and that it is a built-in survival tool.
---
Some people are more in tune with "reading" their gut feelings than others.

snip

scientificamerican.com:

Gut Feelings–the "Second Brain" in Our Gastrointestinal Systems

 

[fred&edna]

Doris' father died in 1997

Retired Tulsa Oklahoma police officer of 31 years.
Awarded the Medal of Valor in 1996.
Less then 4 months after retiring, on February 14, 1997, died from a heart attack at age 52.
Services were held at the Greater Union Baptist Church.


https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=63782584

 

[zencompass]

Good morning everyone,

There are so many topics within this case to discuss.

What is the first topic we can start a thread to discuss and research?

I can start the thread - whatever topic you want to start with?

Or we can just start numerous threads.

I know that I am not as organized as you and I would like to keep topic conversations together so I can learn more from others and I can add what little I have found so far.

What do you all think of adding threads?

Keeping specific topics about this case will really help us to keep specific topics in their own places. In my opinion

Thanks in advance,

 

[Betty P]

Latest article in Tulsa World series reviews evidence

http://www.tulsaworld.com/girl-scou...cle_b6b49d5e-26a6-548f-8c5f-a4acf7c5efa0.html

Some of the evidence:

• Sperm: MacLeod, flown to the trial from New York, testified that sperm taken from the bodies and from Hart's underwear were "quite similar."

• Hair: Hair samples taken from the bodies and from Hart's head were "exactly the same," according to Reed, an OSBI chemist. She said they came either from Hart or from someone's hair "with the same microscopic characteristics." It's important to note: As of 2015, with the FBI's admission of problems with it, microscopic hair analysis has been discredited as a forensic technique.

• Items discovered in a cave three miles from Camp Scott: That cave, which witness testimony said Hart had used while on the run, was situated just 100 feet from Hart's onetime boyhood home, of which a foundation and cellar were all that was left. Items found included a pair of sunglasses alleged to have been stolen from a Camp Scott counselor; a roll of tape that matched tape found at the death scene (the tape was on a flashlight presumably left behind by the killer); and photos reportedly developed by Hart, who'd once worked in a prison photo lab.

Note: There were two pairs of glasses stolen. The sunglasses mentioned above and the eyeglasses (and case) belonging to counselor CW that were found near the crime scene.

• Items recovered from the shack where Hart was captured: These included a mirror and toy pipe, which another Camp Scott counselor testified had been taken from her tent.

• The flashlight: Left behind at the crime scene, it had been modified in a specific way that emitted only a slice of light — a way that Hart was known to use to modify flashlights, according to testimony from an associate of Hart's.

The roll of tape, a special type, had been burglarized from the cabin belonging to the rancher (Jack Schroff) who had a weekend place nearby. Schroff's place was burglarized frequently (he lived in Tulsa and came out one a week). Other items burglarized from Schroff's place believed to have been used were crowbars and a piece of green garbage bag that was used to cover the lens of the flashlight. The black duct tape had been given to Schroff by his son, an engineer. It was a special type used in the repair of pipelines.

A purse was also stolen from one of the Kiowa unit counselors. It was never recovered, IIRC.

The semen recovered from GLH was DNA tested by the FBI in 1989. Results linked the DNA to Hart

http://newsok.com/article/2287953

Two separate sources, both with knowledge of the confidential tests, said Hart's body fluids matched three probes of DNA evidence obtained at the crime scene, and two other tests were inconclusive. The sources asked not to be identified.

One person in 7,700 American Indians would match the crime scene sample as Hart did, The Oklahoman was told. Hart was a Cherokee Indian.

"If all five probes had matched it would have been one in 3 billion," one source said. "With three of five matching it is one in 7,700. That means if you got tests from 7,700 American Indians one of them should match, which is the reason why the test is not conclusive."

The DNA results, IMO, indicate there may have been an accomplice whose DNA was similar to Hart's, a relative. Something to think about.

ETA: Though the article doesn't mention it, there was a fingerprint on the flashlight that didn't match Hart. It was tested against numerous other people, from suspects to people who worked at the Camp, with no match.

 

[missgulfsouth]

I like everything in one thread, personally. I'm not sure you can really pick apart bits and pieces of this case, because there are so many elements that fit together like a puzzle, you need all of the information in order to make sense of it. Perhaps that is why GLH was acquitted. There were bits and pieces, but nothing substantial enough to convince a jury.

I suppose if you wanted to break it down into bite sized threads or topics, some ideas:

- Reasons GLH was probably one of the killers
- Do you think there was more than one killer?
- What should the Girl Scouts/Magic Empire have done differently to prevent this?
- How would this case be handled today? Would the killer(s) be caught and convicted? Would the citizens of modern-day Oklahoma react the same way (defending, cheering upon acquittal) ... would public reaction be different today?

 

[zencompass]

I do not have the ability to add threads within a thread so I messaged the wonderful Moderators to see what they think about adding specific topics.

If you agree, perhaps a Moderator could start a thread such as "How many perpetrators were there?". I am very interested in this because the authorities believe two weapons were used as blunt instruments. This leads me to wonder whether there were at least two perpetrators.

 

[missgulfsouth]

I've been wondering about something.

WHY would GLH admit to the kidnapping, brutal rape, and attempted murder of two pregnant women ... and deny murdering the Girl Scouts?

 

[zencompass]

Thank you so much missgulfsouth for your view about whether adding specific topics to this thread would be helpful or not.

This thread is becoming more and more popular which shows such compassion for justice for these three little girls.

You are all so wonderful and caring.

 

[zencompass]

A minister, Rev. Gerald Manley, claimed that he witnessed four men at the crime scene. This is intriguing but may have no truth to it. Ted LaTurner, a former private investigator who assisted officials in investigating the slayings, says he believes
the story of the Rev. Gerald Manley.

From article (below):

"LaTurner says he and Manley do not want to release the names of the two men Manley accuses of the crime for fear of lawsuits.

One of the men is in prison for another murder and another is in the Chouteau-Locust Grove area, LaTurner says.

Lt. Harry Wakefield of the Tulsa County sheriff's office says Mayes County Sheriff Wiley Backwater requested him to conduct a polygraph examination of Manley. Wakefield says he cannot release results because it is a Mayes County case.

Wakefield says he gave the results to LaTurner. LaTurner says Manley passed the test, which he turned over to the OSBI. Renfrow says he could not discuss results of the polygraph.

LaTurner says he thinks officials do not want to believe Manley's story because Manley does not name Gene Leroy Hart."


http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/...cle_56adcbcf-d2e4-5f02-9945-88a950b58c6b.html