OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[Ambitioned]

My aunt is like that, she will tell EVERYTHING she know to everyone who will ask, and later swear that she didn't.

Argh!!!!!!! My grandma is like that. She will pick up her phone and tell anyone everything. It absolutely drives me bonkers.

As for night vision device, it's a good question!

Speaking of night implements, I am at the transcripts where they talk about the attempt to lift prints off the green plastic with a hole that covered the flashlight, and lifting prints off the masking tape used to tape the green plastic. It's mentioned that there was a piece of newspaper inside it from Tulsa World. I apologize if this has been answered before but why was there newspaper inside it?

 

[missgulfsouth]

Argh!!!!!!! My grandma is like that. She will pick up her phone and tell anyone everything. It absolutely drives me bonkers.

As for night vision device, it's a good question!

Speaking of night implements, I am at the transcripts where they talk about the attempt to lift prints off the green plastic with a hole that covered the flashlight, and lifting prints off the masking tape used to tape the green plastic. It's mentioned that there was a piece of newspaper inside it from Tulsa World. I apologize if this has been answered before but why was there newspaper inside it?

The newspaper was wedged inside in order to hold the batteries in place because the connection was loose. The newspaper in the flashlight matched newspaper found in the cave.

 

[Ambitioned]

The newspaper was wedged inside in order to hold the batteries in place because the connection was loose. The newspaper in the flashlight matched newspaper found in the cave.

Ah thank you so much. :loveyou:

Sure seems quite a stretch to insinuate that Sheriff Weaver would plant all that evidence.

 

[huxley72]

Weaver was not the main faction in the investigation it was the OSBI, but really there was a problem over who was in charge of the investigation from the start. I think there were so many LE there from so many agencies. It probably hindered the investigation.

 

[huxley72]

We need transcripts from the trial and the civil trial. I bet the civil trial had more info than anything to help decide what happened. How can we obtain this?

 

[Ambitioned]

Weaver was not the main faction in the investigation it was the OSBI, but really there was a problem over who was in charge of the investigation from the start. I think there were so many LE there from so many agencies. It probably hindered the investigation.

True and yet Issacs charged that evidence had been planted in an effort to frame Hart. To me that's quite a stretch. I truly believe GLH did it but who helped him??

I agree with you in that the civil trial transcripts would be extremely informative.

 

[adeedra]

http://www.abandonedok.com/camp-scott/

Dana E.W. wrote:

I went to the camp as a young girl two times. I went in 1973, 1974 and 1975. My parents felt it was a good camp for me to attend, however I remember hating it and being terrified every time I went. Times were different back then and people were more trusting. However, I remember everything about this camp as if I was there yesterday and I always felt scared and as a young girl of 10 years old never felt like the camp counselors were close enough and I remember writing letters to my parents and calling them crying and begging them to come pick me up. I remember the girls in my tent and I always heard noises outside the tent at night like someone was walking around and I slept every night with my head covered up because I was so scared. I dreaded it ever night and couldn't wait to go home. I would never allow my child now to go to a camp like this based on how it was laid out. The tents were not secure and anyone could have come and gotten me as a child as well. I feel blessed and fortunate that I didn't get killed. I always knew I was scared to death every second I was there. So, this has always haunted me even more knowing three beautiful girls were killed there only a few years after I was last there and knowing i always heard someone walking around by my tent. Was that the killer? Was he just trying to get the nerve to carry out the horrible act? It truly terrifies me to this day thinking about it.

It could be the reason why girls in nearest tend didn't hear anything - possibly too scared of darkness and/or dark night in the woods...

 

[Ambitioned]

Just an OT. As I go through the transcripts I'm really impressed how courteous DA Wise is. "Your honor..." "If it please the court..." Etc.

 

[missgulfsouth]

http://www.abandonedok.com/camp-scott/

Dana E.W. wrote:


It could be the reason why girls in nearest tend didn't hear anything - possibly too scared of darkness and/or dark night in the woods...

Innate, instinctual fear is built into us. We subconsciously know the dangers out there. The children knew they were vulnerable. It was the adults who decided they weren't. That counselors in every tent weren't necessary. Adults designed a camp without adequate lighting for security. They placed a tent in the woods, a football field away from counselors and denied that it placed girls in danger. When girls complained about things that scared them that day and night, teens and adults told them they were being silly.

As an aside, how many children tell their parents that someone frightens them, makes them uncomfortable, or does things to them ... and the adult, the one who is supposed to protect them, tells them they are lying or imagining things? Who advocates for the children? Who advocated for Doris, Michelle and Lori? Lori's mother says the parents were treated like the enemy by a council that proclaims a great love for its Girl Scouts.

 

[adeedra]

So this picture was taken as trees loses leaves.
Now I doubt that really was so dark - around that camp possibly, but - if the only light source were lanterns on latrines, then tent#7 could be not completely dark.
Also - those tents seem to be quite far away from each other.
10-12 yards of trees isn't close enough to hear much.

Most likely it was the first day of '77 season and there were no other girls in these tents before. So... if they were watching that area, they knew how it looks like, which tent to pick and attack. If they (I can't think "he" anymore, he couldn't wear three different size of shoes that day) were aware that counselors tent is so far away, they could use that flashlight with green foil on it.
No night vision device needed, not very intense light could be really hard to notice from distance, especially as it was inside of a tent.

I have simmilar woods not far away, I will go and check how dark is pitch dark cause it's driving me crazy now.

 

[missgulfsouth]

So this picture was taken as trees loses leaves.
Now I doubt that really was so dark - around that camp possibly, but - if the only light source were lanterns on latrines, then tent#7 could be not completely dark.
Also - those tents seem to be quite far away from each other.
10-12 yards of trees isn't close enough to hear much.

Most likely it was the first day of '77 season and there were no other girls in these tents before. So... if they were watching that area, they knew how it looks like, which tent to pick and attack. If they (I can't think "he" anymore, he couldn't wear three different size of shoes that day) were aware that counselors tent is so far away, they could use that flashlight with green foil on it.
No night vision device needed, not very intense light could be really hard to notice from distance, especially as it was inside of a tent.

I have simmilar woods not far away, I will go and check how dark is pitch dark cause it's driving me crazy now.

It has been reported by several who were there that it was so dark that night, one could not see their hand in front of their face, nor tell if their eyes were open or closed. A very stormy night with clouds blocking the moon and stars. Black. A lantern on the latrine, several yards away would not have made much of a difference.

 

[huxley72]

Good segment with some news clips back from the day of the murders and an interview with Gene Hart. I think my mind would be more at ease if we knew what and where Gene Hart was not only during the murders but during the years he was a fugitive. I don't think he lived off the land at all, he just doesn't look like it. We know he liked to burglarize places. I just wonder if someone got the brochure to the camp some months before and planned this out. Whoever did this had to kill in the past and kill again later, its too brutal to be an accident or first time killing.

http://khqa.com/news/nation-world/the-girl-scout-murders-oklahomas-greatest-unsolved-crime

 

[missgulfsouth]

Good segment with some news clips back from the day of the murders and an interview with Gene Hart. I think my mind would be more at ease if we knew what and where Gene Hart was not only during the murders but during the years he was a fugitive. I don't think he lived off the land at all, he just doesn't look like it. We know he liked to burglarize places. I just wonder if someone got the brochure to the camp some months before and planned this out. Whoever did this had to kill in the past and kill again later, its too brutal to be an accident or first time killing.

http://khqa.com/news/nation-world/the-girl-scout-murders-oklahomas-greatest-unsolved-crime

I watched most of the GLH interview. The Camp Scott murders aside, he was at the very least a convicted and admitted, twice kidnapper, brutal rapist, attempted murderer, felon and twice escapee. So how he could put on a shiny suit, grin and joke, and just plain hold his head high, as though charming and believable ... is beyond me. I would hang my head in utter disgrace, shame and humility. Where was his respect for the people he hurt? To say nothing of what he was accused of.

 

[Betty P]

So this picture was taken as trees loses leaves.
Now I doubt that really was so dark - around that camp possibly, but - if the only light source were lanterns on latrines, then tent#7 could be not completely dark.
Also - those tents seem to be quite far away from each other.
10-12 yards of trees isn't close enough to hear much.

Most likely it was the first day of '77 season and there were no other girls in these tents before. So... if they were watching that area, they knew how it looks like, which tent to pick and attack. If they (I can't think "he" anymore, he couldn't wear three different size of shoes that day) were aware that counselors tent is so far away, they could use that flashlight with green foil on it.
No night vision device needed, not very intense light could be really hard to notice from distance, especially as it was inside of a tent.

I have simmilar woods not far away, I will go and check how dark is pitch dark cause it's driving me crazy now.

Just dropping in for a minute to offer some additional information, maybe help

I can't see the photo your're referring to, but the photos of the camp where trees were bare were taken later, during the trial of GLH. The tents were set up temporarily in Kiowa so jurors could view the crime scene.

Though I don't see it mentioned much online, in the book SCFTC, it was believed the green plastic material on the lens of the flashlight was a piece of plastic from a dark green garbage bag. A piece was cut from a bag and stretched over the lens of the flashlight, then a hole poked in it to only allow a small beam of light. Pieces of this same garbage bag were found at the cave/old cellar area, along with the newspaper with missing pages that matched the paper folded up inside the flashlight.

If you check Part 10 of the pre-trial testimony, there's testimony from a local man who did odd jobs and specialized in repairing flashlights for people in the area. He recalled repairing a flashlight for someone out at the cave/old cellar location. IIRC, he replaced the switch. When shown the flashlight from the crime scene, he said it could have been one repaired. He said he nearly always put a folded piece of newspaper at the back of batteries in flashlights because it helps keep the battery in contact. When examining the crime scene flashlight, he said he could tell whomever used it was in the woods/outdoors a lot because of the scratches on on side of the case. He said the person carried it by the handle as he walked past bushes, etc. so it is scratched on one side. He also said it had heavy scratching on the underside of the flashlight, which means it was used by someone who climbed through barbed wire fences frequently.

I'm pretty sure his name was John Fleming, but I'm not finding him on the list of witnesses, but do recall reading his testimony.

 

[adeedra]

Innate, instinctual fear is built into us. We subconsciously know the dangers out there. The children knew they were vulnerable. It was the adults who decided they weren't. That counselors in every tent weren't necessary. Adults designed a camp without adequate lighting for security. They placed a tent in the woods, a football field away from counselors and denied that it placed girls in danger. When girls complained about things that scared them that day and night, teens and adults told them they were being silly.

I wasn't up for blaming those responsible for planning and setting tents few pages ago but now I'm at least not so wonder why people are assuming that someone from CS staff was involved.
It wasn't even about breaking some security rules, it is unbelieveably beyond common sense to place tents so far, so wide, with no logic...
Why campfire isn't in the middle of tents?
Why the youngest girls ended there? WHY? Maybe if they were older, they wouldn't be so tired, terryfied and maybe...

I hope that it will be solved beyond doubt at some point. Even if those who did that are deceased now, they should be remembered only as monsters.

As an aside, how many children tell their parents that someone frightens them, makes them uncomfortable, or does things to them ... and the adult, the one who is supposed to protect them, tells them they are lying or imagining things? Who advocates for the children? Who advocated for Doris, Michelle and Lori?

This is how "adult" brains work. What could we do apart from not letting ours turn into that?

It has been reported by several who were there that it was so dark that night, one could not see their hand in front of their face, nor tell if their eyes were open or closed. A very stormy night with clouds blocking the moon and stars. Black. A lantern on the latrine, several yards away would not have made much of a difference.

I know, I remember. But even small, not very bright lantern in the distance is some kind of landmark and could help to know where to go.

 

[adeedra]

Just dropping in for a minute to offer some additional information, maybe help

I can't see the photo your're referring to, but the photos of the camp where trees were bare were taken later, during the trial of GLH. The tents were set up temporarily in Kiowa so jurors could view the crime scene.

Though I don't see it mentioned much online, in the book SCFTC, it was believed the green plastic material on the lens of the flashlight was a piece of plastic from a dark green garbage bag. A piece was cut from a bag and stretched over the lens of the flashlight, then a hole poked in it to only allow a small beam of light. Pieces of this same garbage bag were found at the cave/old cellar area, along with the newspaper with missing pages that matched the paper folded up inside the flashlight.

If you check Part 10 of the pre-trial testimony, there's testimony from a local man who did odd jobs and specialized in repairing flashlights for people in the area. He recalled repairing a flashlight for someone out at the cave/old cellar location. IIRC, he replaced the switch. When shown the flashlight from the crime scene, he said it could have been one repaired. He said he nearly always put a folded piece of newspaper at the back of batteries in flashlights because it helps keep the battery in contact. When examining the crime scene flashlight, he said he could tell whomever used it was in the woods/outdoors a lot because of the scratches on on side of the case. He said the person carried it by the handle as he walked past bushes, etc. so it is scratched on one side. He also said it had heavy scratching on the underside of the flashlight, which means it was used by someone who climbed through barbed wire fences frequently.

I'm pretty sure his name was John Fleming, but I'm not finding him on the list of witnesses, but do recall reading his testimony.

Thank You so much but that just brings more doubt.
I assumed that at least bottoms of these tents were left as they were placed, but...

Here - https://youtu.be/75q8Z2gzmTE?t=1m29s is some arerial shot. It looks like it is the same spot but tents are set in totally different way.
I don't understand - when it was taken, they say that was June 13, 1977.

Here - https://youtu.be/75q8Z2gzmTE?t=3m30s they are saying that GLH had hundreds of friends and family members who were helping him as he was in hiding.

 

[Betty P]

Thank You so much but that just brings more doubt.
I assumed that at least bottoms of these tents were left as they were placed, but...

Here - https://youtu.be/75q8Z2gzmTE?t=1m29s is some arerial shot. It looks like it is the same spot but tents are set in totally different way.
I don't understand - when it was taken, they say that was June 13, 1977.

Here - https://youtu.be/75q8Z2gzmTE?t=3m30s they are saying that GLH had hundreds of friends and family members who were helping him as he was in hiding.

Yes, the tents in the photo were set up the same way during the criminal trial for GLH. In the aerial shot, from around the time of the murders, trees were full of leaves and obscured the view. Hard to discern the full configuration of tents and structures in Kiowa. But, yes, it was the same campground with tents put up exactly the same, including tent# 7. Obv. #7 wasn't exactly the same as some parts had been removed for evidence, including a section of the floor. No, prosecution wouldn't have been able to get by with changing the configuration of the tents and would not have seen any benefit from trying to do so. The civil trial for victims v Girl Scouts took place many years later in 1985. Not sure they set the tents up for that. Girl Scouts had sold the property by then, IIRC and the camp had been closed many years.

As for the campfire ring, it would have been a fire safety risk to put it in the middle of the group of tents. There were probably regulations that determined how far it needed to be. Same with latrines. During the subsequent civil trial brought by victim families against Magic Council GS, safety experts testified, most stating that the problem with the configuration of Kiowa was that the kitchen/storage building blocked the view from the counselor's tent to tent #6 and #7. They also said it needed better night-time lighting, like a dusk to dawn type of pole light. Unfortunate, but it had that configuration for many years already. The kitchen/storage building (which also had a cold water shower) was a permanent structure, not something that could be moved around from year to year. Camp Scott closed after the murders so the issue was moot, but the result was that safety rules were re-written for scout camps, making them safer over the years.

ETA: Re Hart having many friends in the area, yes, that's true. He had a lot of help, even an uncle who testified that Hart was in Tulsa the night of the murders (though Hart had no car and everyone LE questioned when searching for him said they didn't know where he was). Not everyone was a friend of Hart, though, and many helped during the investigation. Some of LE who worked on the case were NA, including OSBI agent Harvey Pratt. The SCFTC book had a lot of interesting information and input from Pratt and the work he did on the investigation. He worked with a Medicine Man in trying to hunt for Hart. He would go into the woods around Camp Scott at night and sit for hours in the dark to see who he encountered out there. Did the same rituals as GLH (using burning of tobacco, meditation, etc.).


http://girlscoutmurders.com/PEOPLE.html

 

[adeedra]

Yes, the tents in the photo were set up the same way during the criminal trial for GLH. In the aerial shot, from around the time of the murders, trees were full of leaves and obscured the view. Hard to discern the full configuration of tents and structures in Kiowa. But, yes, it was the same campground with tents put up exactly the same, including tent# 7. Obv. #7 wasn't exactly the same as some parts had been removed for evidence, including a section of the floor. No, prosecution wouldn't have been able to get by with changing the configuration of the tents and would not have seen any benefit from trying to do so. The civil trial for victims v Girl Scouts took place many years later in 1985. Not sure they set the tents up for that. Girl Scouts had sold the property by then, IIRC and the camp had been closed many years.

Then I don't understand which part of Kiowa is shows. Isn't that the same spot?

 

[Betty P]

Then I don't understand which part of Kiowa is shows. Isn't that the same spot?

Possibly. It's difficult to say with all the trees around. What is the significance?

Do you know the origin of the b&w aerial photo? I'm not certain of that one. I would say the layout of buildings and tents in the B&W aerial photo fit the descriptions given by campers, counselors, staff and LE.

 

[Betty P]

This is one of the series of B&W photos I referred to that were taken at the time that the jury for the criminal trial visited the Camp Scott crime scene