OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[Betty P]

Possibility for the aerial B&W photo in your post above: Special infra-red/heat detecting cameras were used to scan the Camp Scott area in the weeks after the murders in hopes of finding the killer still hiding in the woods. This could be a still from that.

 

[Ambitioned]

Color photo should be rotated like this IMO to match the B & W one? And then flipped? I agree with Betty. Really hard to tell for sure with all the trees now.

 

[Betty P]

Color photo should be rotated like this IMO to match the B & W one? And then flipped? I agree with Betty. Really hard to tell for sure with all the trees now.

It's a nice photo and all, capturing the day, but not sure if it helps much with anything. It was from news camera footage, IIRC.

The more accurate one is the infrared photo above. You can see all of the tents, including #7. You can also see the kitchen/storage building. The counselor's tent, not in the frame, is just to the left of the kitchen. Below the bottom left of the photo is the beginning of the road leading to the main area of the camp. About 30 ft or so along that road is the "Y" in the road near where the girls bodies were found.

 

[adeedra]

Color photo should be rotated like this IMO to match the B & W one? And then flipped? I agree with Betty. Really hard to tell for sure with all the trees now.

I'm not sure how it should be rotated but it doesn't look likr this neither or any other map or on sketches, nor that b&w aerial photo.
If that's reconstrucion then why I can't find any spot where two tents are directly opposite to one or even two another.

Only possibility for me is:

If correct, then I can't imagine that counselors were able to watch what's happening not only in 6th and 7th tent but in 5th and most likely 4th as well.
Acoustic would be ridiculous as well, during rainy, stormy night, counselors at only one tent not hidden under the trees, all the echos would turn sounds into total mess.

Was there any safety reason for setting tents so wide? Or not setting counselors tent right in front of that storage building?
I'm not sure how much negligence is too much but it almost looks like someone intentionally planned it to make counselors unable to see or hear what's happening with the kids.

*and if storage/showers is hidden under the trees then still not like there was not enough space to set 7th tent closer. Sorry for this but it's just so beyond me, they weren't some city people who didn't knew better, not realize and made a mistake, they had decades of experience, specifically in camping, with that area.

 

[Betty P]

I'm not sure how it should be rotated but it doesn't look likr this neither or any other map or on sketches, nor that b&w aerial photo.
If that's reconstrucion then why I can't find any spot where two tents are directly opposite to one or even two another.

Only possibility for me is:

If correct, then I can't imagine that counselors were able to watch what's happening not only in 6th and 7th tent but in 5th and most likely 4th as well.
Acoustic would be ridiculous as well, during rainy, stormy night, counselors at only one tent not hidden under the trees, all the echos would turn sounds into total mess.

Was there any safety reason for setting tents so wide? Or not setting counselors tent right in front of that storage building?
I'm not sure how much negligence is too much but it almost looks like someone intentionally planned it to make counselors unable to see or hear what's happening with the kids.

*and if storage/showers is hidden under the trees then still not like there was not enough space to set 7th tent closer. Sorry for this but it's just so beyond me, they weren't some city people who didn't knew better, not realize and made a mistake, they had decades of experience, specifically in camping, with that area.

Well, if done deliberately, it was done a long time before the killings. IIRC from testimony, it was built that way many years ago. I suppose that was just the configuration they thought would best fit the geography, road, paths and trees in the area. Given the location of the kitchen/storage building, it would have been difficult to configure everything differently without cutting down more trees. Putting the counselor tent in the middle would have required pushing many of the tents back further. They needed open area there for girls to gather, have activities, etc.

Camp Scott had been in operation since the late 1920's, 1929, IIRC. There were probably changes and upgrades over the years. IIRC, the newest items built were the Great Hall and pool.

 

[missgulfsouth]

I guess it's similar thinking to the way people never used to lock their doors. In some areas they still don't. Or the faulty flammable siding they put on the apartment building in London. Or the Titanic going full speed ahead through icebergs.

"That will never happen here. It's never happened before."

 

[MaryG12]

Well, if done deliberately, it was done a long time before the killings. IIRC from testimony, it was built that way many years ago. I suppose that was just the configuration they thought would best fit the geography, road, paths and trees in the area. Given the location of the kitchen/storage building, it would have been difficult to configure everything differently without cutting down more trees. Putting the counselor tent in the middle would have required pushing many of the tents back further. They needed open area there for girls to gather, have activities, etc.

Camp Scott had been in operation since the late 1920's, 1929, IIRC. There were probably changes and upgrades over the years. IIRC, the newest items built were the Great Hall and pool.

It's late and I should be in bed but can't sleep...

The tent platforms, are those the originals that date back to the 1920's? What kind of wood were they made from? or were they cement? if wood, was it treated to withstand the elements when the tents were not set up over them? Does anyone know if there are blueprints of Camp Scott over the decades from the 1920's to 1977?
And maybe the names of the blueprint designers too?

 

[missgulfsouth]

It's late and I should be in bed but can't sleep...

The tent platforms, are those the originals that date back to the 1920's? What kind of wood were they made from? or were they cement? if wood, was it treated to withstand the elements when the tents were not set up over them? Does anyone know if there are blueprints of Camp Scott over the decades from the 1920's to 1977?
And maybe the names of the blueprint designers too?

I even wondered if the killers hid underneath them.

 

[MaryG12]

I even wondered if the killers hid underneath them.

Hm, after looking at that photo of the tent - and it looks higher than 12" off the ground too, it may be a possibility:

 

[Betty P]

Hm, after looking at that photo of the tent - and it looks higher than 12" off the ground too, it may be a possibility:

I'm confused. I thought you were working on the theory that staff at the camp killed the girls. Staff wouldn't have needed to hide under tent platforms.

Just sayin'. I'm not a believer in that theory, but thought i would bring it up.

 

[Betty P]

It's late and I should be in bed but can't sleep...

The tent platforms, are those the originals that date back to the 1920's? What kind of wood were they made from? or were they cement? if wood, was it treated to withstand the elements when the tents were not set up over them? Does anyone know if there are blueprints of Camp Scott over the decades from the 1920's to 1977?
And maybe the names of the blueprint designers too?

No, not aware of any.

But the pre-trial testimony indicated the platforms were already in place from the previous year or longer. All Ranger Ben did to get the sleeping accomodations ready was put up the tents on the platforms. I'm sure the platforms were replaced or repaired over the years, but not in 1977.

So are you theorizing that, in order for staffers to plot to kill some campers, they rearranged the platforms of the tents to put some out of sight of the counselor tents, then waited for the right year and opportunity to kill some girls? No offense, but I find that theory pretty far out.

But please feel free to share your scenario for the staff killing girls by moving the platforms for the tents a few years in advance.

 

[adeedra]

So are you theorizing that, in order for staffers to plot to kill some campers, they rearranged the platforms of the tents to put some out of sight of the counselor tents, then waited for the right year and opportunity to kill some girls? No offense, but I find that theory pretty far out.

But please feel free to share your scenario for the staff killing girls by moving the platforms for the tents a few years in advance.

It depends on who was responsible for that configuration. Maybe someone from that staff, or maybe CS hired some seasonal workers and one of more of them wanted to have easy access to some girls. They were planning for years in advance but one of them went to prison so they waited - and as he got released...

 

[missgulfsouth]

I don't think anyone situated anything intentionally. The entire set up of the camp was obviously without foresight of danger and totally lacking in basic adequate security measures. They never thought something like this would happen and that was their first mistake.

For 49 years things were fine. Not safe, but "without incident". The Manson Murders happened 8 years earlier. Henry Lee Lucas and Otis Toole were killing on a regular basis. Ted Bundy was making his rounds. John Wayne Gacy ... Son of Sam ... the Zodiac Killer ... the Hillside Stranglers ... BTK ... .all active. Yet Camp Scott went on just as it always had, as though all was right with the world. In nearly 50 years time, security lights could have been added. Or a tall, impenetrable perimeter fence around the tent portions of the camp. An adult in each tent. Night patrols. Something. I think they had a responsibility to look out at the world around them and take some precautions. It was arrogant not to.

 

[huxley72]

How far was it from were the bodies were found and the counselors tent? I figure what happened to Denise happened there with the testimony of several people talking about the dirt being pushed. I figured it was done during the early dawn so the killer could see without the flashlight. It probably was the alarm clock that caused the quick exit of the killer and thus leaving the flashlight. Now what really puzzles me is why bring the other bodies out of the tent clean it up then do this to Denise. Poor Denise took the brunt of this attack, and by that I mean how long was she subjected to God knows what. She was definetely the target.

 

[missgulfsouth]

How far was it from were the bodies were found and the counselors tent? I figure what happened to Denise happened there with the testimony of several people talking about the dirt being pushed. I figured it was done during the early dawn so the killer could see without the flashlight. It probably was the alarm clock that caused the quick exit of the killer and thus leaving the flashlight. Now what really puzzles me is why bring the other bodies out of the tent clean it up then do this to Denise. Poor Denise took the brunt of this attack, and by that I mean how long was she subjected to God knows what. She was definetely the target.

Huxley ...

"The civil trial included discussion of the threatening note as well as the fact that tent #7 lay 86-yards from the counselors’ tent." - abandonedok.com

IIRC, the bodies were found 150 yards (1 1/2 football fields) away from tent #7. Let me check those specifics again, and where the bodies were in relation to the counselors tent.

Just came across an article I read last month about the sounds and happenings that night. Cicadas are not mentioned once.

http://www.reddirtreport.com/oklaho...camp-scott-girl-scout-murders-remain-unsolved

The source of the article is "The Camp Scott Murders" by C.S. Kelly

Kiowa tent number 7 (sometimes called 8 when counted with the counselors' tent) was the most remote tent in the unit and in the camp. It couldn't be seen from the counselors' tent.“Before and during 1977, Camp Scott had no lights in the wooden platform tents. Aside from the campers' flashlights, the only light source provided at the camp units were the kerosene lanterns which were lit at night. These lanterns hung at the unit latrines,” as is described in The Camp Scott Murders written by C. S. Kelly and published in 2014.

Just past midnight, Willhite was awakened by a noise.“It was a cross between a frog and bullhorn or something. It was low and kind of guttural. It wasn't language. It didn't seem like language. It didn't seem human. It didn't sound like any animal I've heard," said Willhite in the documentary, Someone Cry for the Children: The Girl Scout Murders, produced and directed by Mike Wilkerson, who co-authored a book with his brother Dick Wilkerson Someone Cry for the Children, that was published in 1981. Both were members of the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation.

Willhite awoke another counselor in her tent, Dee Elder, and asked if she had heard the strange sound. She hadn't. Willhite went outside with her flashlight to survey the woods. Each time she flashed her light, the sound stopped. She walked the tents. Everything was quiet. She went back to bed.

Many saw a strange light and heard guttural sounds throughout the night. Tent 6 was flooded by light and then it disappeared. A girl was heard crying for her momma.“

Two counselors had been frightened by two men at the camp, the night before the murders. Some campers said they saw a man in army boots behind a tent;” whereas another man was seen by a latrine the night of the murders," as is reported in Kelly's book.

And these quotes from girlscoutmurders.com :

A storm hit the area around 6PM, causing heavy rain. Because of the weather, the campers were sent back to their tents.At approximately 1:30AM, moaning was heard near camp Kiowa. Carla, a counselor at the camp, checked out the noise and described it as a low guttural moaning. It would stop whenever the beam of her flashlight came near.

Carla was standing at the intersection of the trail, 150 yards from Tent 8 and a dirt road leading to the main camp.At approximately 2AM, the tent flap of #7 was opened. Three of the girls inside were sleeping. The fourth girl stated that she noticed a beam of light moving about the interior from outside, with the silhouette of a large figure behind it. The figure moved off toward Tent 8. Moaning sounds were heard throughout the night, not just by those in the Kiowa section but in four other units of the camp.At approximately 3AM, a girl in the Cherokee section across the woods heard a scream come from the direction of Kiowa, located about two city blocks away. A girl in Quapaw also heard a scream. The scream seemed to be cries of "momma! momma!"The girl thought it may have been the voice of Lori Farmer.

This, from a scout who was in Kiowa Camp that night, via girlscoutmurders.yuku.com, which is reportedly a reputable site that some here have suggested we glean our information from:

I was one of 12 girls who were with the ones who were murdered. I believe there were four "tents" three girls to each tent. I have very distinct memories of that morning, including being told there was a problem with the water. There was no counselor in our tent. i was an only child used to quiet and it was my first time to be away from my parents. I remember a lot of screaming that night which really unnerved me, but i had no idea mingled among the screams from ghost stories were the screams for real of the girls being murdered.

*Those are her words, not mine. You may choose not to believe her, which is IMO a slippery slope ... who will you believe? I was not there.*


...... all of that, yet nothing was changed in their procedure that night.

As a mom of 5, I have always been a light sleeper and have been woken in the night countless times by my children due to crying, nightmares, fears. I got up each time, sometimes sitting with them throughout the night, sleeping next to them, praying with them. Oftentimes, I have woken because I myself heard a strange sound that alarmed me. Through the house I would search, I would look outside, sometimes I would stand outside and listen. People have been lurking on our property in the middle of the night, and I knew it before they even came into sight. I would wake my husband and tell him to get his gun ... sure enough, it would be someone coming to our door at 1, 2, or 3:00 in the morning. My children have woke to loud disturbances outside, gunshots. They wake us up and my husband and I will investigate and I will not sleep soundly until I know all is well. I will stay up listening, ready to call the police. So I do not at all understand going back to sleep with all of the unnerving activity. Maybe the counselors were not nervous people, maybe the happenings didn't set them on edge like it would me. But me sleeping soundly under those circumstances would not have been an option.

 

[Betty P]

How far was it from were the bodies were found and the counselors tent? I figure what happened to Denise happened there with the testimony of several people talking about the dirt being pushed. I figured it was done during the early dawn so the killer could see without the flashlight. It probably was the alarm clock that caused the quick exit of the killer and thus leaving the flashlight. Now what really puzzles me is why bring the other bodies out of the tent clean it up then do this to Denise. Poor Denise took the brunt of this attack, and by that I mean how long was she subjected to God knows what. She was definetely the target.

There are a couple of good accounts in the pre-trial testimony about what LE theorize happened. One is Sheriff Pete Weaver's testimony.

The bodies were found a couple hundred feet from the counselor's tent. Don't know exactly, as I've never seen a map that defines distance. But you can get a good idea from looking at photos of the crime scene and overhead photos of the area.





Weaver says they surmised from footprints, etc. that the killer/s took DM from the tent across the open space behind the kitchen/supply building and the counselors tents, then out of Kiowa and down the trail to the area where they were found. Weaver pointed out there was a piece of wood that was used as part of the border around the campfire ring that had been kicked askew. He said they found DM's footprints along there, that she was being forced to walk. IIRC, they surmised she had been struck, but was still partly conscious.

One can assume the killers were afraid of making too much noise and awakening the counselors again, so decided to take her farther away into the woods.



The scent tracking dogs traced their scent from the cave/cellar to the woods north of Kiowa, into the camp, then on to where the bodies were and out through the gate area to the south. IIRC, some dogs tracked scent behind some of the other tents in Kiowa.

Looking at the infrared photo of the Kiowa camp site from above, I'm not seeing how there was much room for killers to move tent #7 around and how that would have helped anything. No matter where they may have moved it in that space it would still be out of sight of the counselor's tent.

ETA: The overhead photo at the top with notations isn't completely accurate WRT to times and reports. I compared it to the pre-trial testimony and some of the times are off. Also, the arrows pointing to the location of the individual tents isn't accurate, either. If I had time and better graphics skills I would do a more accurate version of the overhead map. Keep in mind, it wasn't until 2014 that the pre-trial testimony docs were posted on the internet, so a lot of information and witness accounts was not confirmed or known.

From reports from girls in Quapaw unit, the killers may have been walking around in the area between Kiowa and Quapaw. IIRC, that's where there was a report of girls seeing men talking in the woods behind their tent. Wish we had a map of Quapaw.

 

[missgulfsouth]

Here is the map of the camp, showing the location of the bodies, very near the Counselors Tent and the gate . Interesting! So, there is a very good possibility that Carla's alarm clock going off at 6:00 am is what frightened them off.

Body location X is 150 yards from tent #7, so you can see on the map that they are much closer to the counselors tent.

 

[Betty P]

Here is the map of the camp, showing the location of the bodies, very near the Counselors Tent and the gate . Interesting! So, there is a very good possibility that Carla's alarm clock going off at 6:00 am is what frightened them off.

Body location X is 150 yards from tent #7, so you can see on the map that they are much closer to the counselors tent.

As noted above, I'm not sure how accurate that map is. It's definitely off WRT the location of the tents. These maps were marked by amateur sleuths.

 

[missgulfsouth]

As noted above, I'm not sure how accurate that map is. It's definitely off WRT the location of the tents. These maps were marked by amateur sleuths.

And that's what really frustrates me about this thread. If I say something happened (because I read it from multiple sources), someone here says it didn't. If a Girl Scout who was there gives an account of what she heard, someone says it's not true. If you have access to the map that was drawn up by LE at the time of the murders, with the exact layout, by all means post it. I've put a lot of my own time into this case, but if you all already know everything, why should I bother?

 

[Betty P]

And that's what really frustrates me about this thread. If I say something happened (because I read it from multiple sources), someone here says it didn't. If a Girl Scout who was there gives an account of what she heard, someone says it's not true. If you have access to the map that was drawn up by LE at the time of the murders, with the exact layout, by all means post it. I've put a lot of my own time into this case, but if you all already know everything, why should I bother?

My apologies if I upset you. The errors I mentioned above have to do with the person who put the map together, not with how girls reported events that happened that night. There's been a lot of confusion and errors on the internet about this case over the years. It happens. The pre-trial docs have been very helpful in clearing up a lot of information, but not everyone reads them, so erroneous information continues to circulate.

I just found another good online source of information. It's a blog by the son of Sid Wise, the lead prosecutor on the GLH case.

http://sidstories.com/

http://sidstories.com/?p=132