OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[Betty P]

Susan Emory said she screamed when she saw the body. DE ran to her and told her to be quiet and stated that CW never said there was a body. And that she ran to SE screaming and covered her mouth and told her to be quiet. And then ran until she saw the nurse and said " It's awful there are 3 girls dead" and I don't know why I said that because I didn't even look or know they were dead. That is from DE's testimony, so she didn't see anything according to her.

So what do you think about the evidence in the caves discussed in the link I posted earlier? The tape matched as did bootprints. The latter were found in several locations where robberies took place.

 

[huxley72]

So what do you think about the evidence in the caves discussed in the link I posted earlier? The tape matched as did bootprints. The latter were found in several locations where robberies took place.

The problem with the cave evidence is the fact that how do you know Hart was there? Were the bootprints his size? Were fingerprints found on the tape or newspaper? More people than Hart knew about these caves. Also people want to use the rape in 1966 to say things were similiar in the attack. But a nightclub parking lot kidnapping in a car is far different than a complete bludgeoning of 3 small kids. You may ask yourself the question "Did he kill so he could not be identified"? Not a bad question but he was already a fugitive of the law who when caught would be in jail for life. We have no evidence of child molestation during any of his time of life, not saying that it couldn't have happened. This crime was carefully planned and the Kiowa unit was targeted because of the ages of the girls. Don't think Hart watched from year to year to find out which unit housed what girls. I figure if Hart was around during this time and watching the counselors the week before he would have raped and murdered then. This person or persons knew the camp not just the physical layout they knew the particulars. Like age groups and paths walked by others and times of when things took place. They knew distances and how far sound traveled and they knew the day when camp started. Do we know who the caretaker of the camp was before Ben?

 

[adeedra]

This crime was carefully planned and the Kiowa unit was targeted because of the ages of the girls. Don't think Hart watched from year to year to find out which unit housed what girls. I figure if Hart was around during this time and watching the counselors the week before he would have raped and murdered then. This person or persons knew the camp not just the physical layout they knew the particulars. Like age groups and paths walked by others and times of when things took place. They knew distances and how far sound traveled and they knew the day when camp started. Do we know who the caretaker of the camp was before Ben?

Stealing murder weapon is pointing on planning, but I wouldn't call it "carefully" planned.
It wasn't Fort Knox. They were checking out that area for at least one day, possibly much more before that. Could be enough to learn what they need, especially if it was more than one person.
One of them could stand somewhere, hidden, watching if nobody's coming from the main path, ready to make some alarming sound, early enough to let others run away undetected.

 

[huxley72]

Stealing murder weapon is pointing on planning, but I wouldn't call it "carefully" planned.
It wasn't Fort Knox. They were checking out that area for at least one day, possibly much more before that. Could be enough to learn what they need, especially if it was more than one person.
One of them could stand somewhere, hidden, watching if nobody's coming from the main path, ready to make some alarming sound, early enough to let others run away undetected.

They picked the most suseptible tent in the whole camp with the three youngest girls by chance? Don't think so, in fact I bet it was the only tent in camp with 3 girls. It wasn't Fort Knox but besides Ted Bundy in the sorority house how many people can kill three people near 30 other people and not make a sound or wake a soul up. Ted Bundy left his victims in the bed and didn't zip them up in sleeping bags clean up and take the bodies by people on the way to placing them in a specific place. This was calculated and planned for some time and by someone knowing the camp and the schedule of things.

 

[Betty P]

The problem with the cave evidence is the fact that how do you know Hart was there? Were the bootprints his size? Were fingerprints found on the tape or newspaper? More people than Hart knew about these caves. Also people want to use the rape in 1966 to say things were similiar in the attack. But a nightclub parking lot kidnapping in a car is far different than a complete bludgeoning of 3 small kids. You may ask yourself the question "Did he kill so he could not be identified"? Not a bad question but he was already a fugitive of the law who when caught would be in jail for life. We have no evidence of child molestation during any of his time of life, not saying that it couldn't have happened. This crime was carefully planned and the Kiowa unit was targeted because of the ages of the girls. Don't think Hart watched from year to year to find out which unit housed what girls. I figure if Hart was around during this time and watching the counselors the week before he would have raped and murdered then. This person or persons knew the camp not just the physical layout they knew the particulars. Like age groups and paths walked by others and times of when things took place. They knew distances and how far sound traveled and they knew the day when camp started. Do we know who the caretaker of the camp was before Ben?

Cave evidence - the fact that stolen sunglasses were found there is enough to convince me that Hart did stay at those caves. Add in the fact that at least 3 people had visited and/or stayed with Hart at the cave/cellar camp during previous jail escapes. Hart was a prison escapee for 3 years at the time of the GS murders. While he stayed with some friends/family in the area during that time, he also spent time in the caves, usually when LE was searching for him. One of the caves was located across from his mother's home where he could easily see the comings and goings of the local police and sheriff.

Hart was stuck hiding out in the general area for over 3 years. He was isolated, not like he could have an active social life. No dating, etc. It's not surprising he would be creeping around Camp Scott when scouts and counselors were there. Perhaps he escalated from voyerism (recall the incident the week before camp began when CarlaW reported hearing a man creeping around the staff building when she was sleeping there?). Peeking in windows and tents wasn't enough and he wanted to do more. I'd be willing to bet he was also engaged in voyeurism at homes in the Locust Grove area, too.

JMO, he needed an accomplice. Spending so much time hanging out in the area, he probably had visits from some of the teens and young men who lived nearby. Some were relatives. There were locals who reported seeing him out roaming around, hunting and fishing with young men. They could probably go hang out with him to drink, smoke MJ, do drugs, listen to his stories about prison life, etc. The men his own age were either in prison, jail or married with jobs and families, so he probably had to settle for hanging out with a younger group. He probably spent some time talking about his previous crimes, telling them how to abduct and rape women, break into people's houses while they're sleeping, etc. All those stories probably turned into a plot to kidnap and rape some girls from the local resource - Camp Scott.

The only question left, IMO, is which members of his young crew went with him that night?

 

[huxley72]

Cave evidence - the fact that stolen sunglasses were found there is enough to convince me that Hart did stay at those caves. Add in the fact that at least 3 people had visited and/or stayed with Hart at the cave/cellar camp during previous jail escapes. Hart was a prison escapee for 3 years at the time of the GS murders. While he stayed with some friends/family in the area during that time, he also spent time in the caves, usually when LE was searching for him. One of the caves was located across from his mother's home where he could easily see the comings and goings of the local police and sheriff.

Hart was stuck hiding out in the general area for over 3 years. He was isolated, not like he could have an active social life. No dating, etc. It's not surprising he would be creeping around Camp Scott when scouts and counselors were there. Perhaps he escalated from voyerism (recall the incident the week before camp began when CarlaW reported hearing a man creeping around the staff building when she was sleeping there?). Peeking in windows and tents wasn't enough and he wanted to do more. I'd be willing to bet he was also engaged in voyeurism at homes in the Locust Grove area, too.

JMO, he needed an accomplice. Spending so much time hanging out in the area, he probably had visits from some of the teens and young men who lived nearby. Some were relatives. There were locals who reported seeing him out roaming around, hunting and fishing with young men. They could probably go hang out with him to drink, smoke MJ, do drugs, listen to his stories about prison life, etc. The men his own age were either in prison, jail or married with jobs and families, so he probably had to settle for hanging out with a younger group. He probably spent some time talking about his previous crimes, telling them how to abduct and rape women, break into people's houses while they're sleeping, etc. All those stories probably turned into a plot to kidnap and rape some girls from the local resource - Camp Scott.

The only question left, IMO, is which members of his young crew went with him that night?

That's what really has me puzzled with the voyerism the week before. If it were Hart I think he would have made a move, less people around more opportunity. I can't imagine he would wait til camp started then pick 3 of the youngest girls in camp. It just screams pedifile who had murdered before and knew the camp very well. And when I say knew the camp, I mean the schedule and age groups and date when the camp started. The fact remains we don't know where Hart was at this time, he certainly didn't stay in those caves for 3 years. Of all the testimony I only saw where Dry said he stayed in the caves with Hart after their escape in 1973. And to be captured some 70 miles away goes to say he could have been far away from the area at the time. The people who hid Hart out seemed to believe he was innocent and you have to wonder why? I know Wilkerson painted the Hart case like the OJ case before OJ. Not a bad analogy, but OJ was rich,wealthy, famous, athlete, and movie star. Hart was a Indian who played high school football who raped, burglarized, and spent a lot of time in jail. I don't see the similaritys when it comes to the trials. OJ had a history of beating Nicole and telling her he would kill her and had no alibi. Also when his arrest warrant went out he ran with Cowlins heading for the border with a disguise and money. OJ won because of a defense that included three well known lawyers. Everyone knows OJ did it, Hart is a lot different. Why did he have so many supporters? I think it comes to the evidence that the prosecution failed to make the case.

 

[Elementarywatsonsir]

The reasons hart makes the dumbest patsy in all of this: if he was known to break and enter while people were sleeping on numerous occasions and never assault or rape anyone during those escapades....tell me why he does now. He doesn't! If his urges were so inclined, he would have had easy prey on numerous occasions. He didn't do this. Did he interact with who did afterwards? Most likely. But no one with these proclivities has the restraint to pass up an easy opportunity and he obviously did. This entire case about him is ********.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Leomoon80]

OJ won because of a defense that included three well known lawyers

''

True enough, but lawyers even the dream team do not necessarily sway the juries, such as in the case of Susan Berman's ongoing trial. There was evidence even blood evidence enough to sway a normal jury in that case, and jurors speaking out now, (even older ones) are saying "it was a revenge verdict", based on Rodney King's murder.

 

[Betty P]

''

True enough, but lawyers even the dream team do not necessarily sway the juries, such as in the case of Susan Berman's ongoing trial. There was evidence even blood evidence enough to sway a normal jury in that case, and jurors speaking out now, (even older ones) are saying "it was a revenge verdict", based on Rodney King's murder.

There were a couple of things that worked in Hart's favor at the trial. One was that the prosecution wasn't allowed to bring up his past convictions for rapes and kidnapping or burglaries .

Second, Isaacs played that in Hart's favor by, despite warnings from the judge, telling the jury that Hart was going back to prison for 300 years, even if they found him not guilty. This gave jurors an out. They were already under terrible pressure from AIM demonstrators getting death threats, being spat upon and shouted at daily. They could go ahead and vote NG and still know he would be in jail for life. Yeah, Isaacs was a highly unethical lawyer .

 

[huxley72]

There were a couple of things that worked in Hart's favor at the trial. One was that the prosecution wasn't allowed to bring up his past convictions for rapes and kidnapping or burglaries .

Second, Isaacs played that in Hart's favor by, despite warnings from the judge, telling the jury that Hart was going back to prison for 300 years, even if they found him not guilty. This gave jurors an out. They were already under terrible pressure from AIM demonstrators getting death threats, being spat upon and shouted at daily. They could go ahead and vote NG and still know he would be in jail for life. Yeah, Isaacs was a highly unethical lawyer .

Suppose they came back with a guilty verdict, do you think Hart would have lived longer? Do you think he would have confessed? Would you be satisfied they got the right man? Rape and Burglary are one thing, but triple murder is another. Do we have any incidents of Gene Hart beating people? Strangling people? Do we have any other source that Gene Hart was around the area but his cousin? The one that was accused of rape years later. Are they still trying to figure out the fingerprint or the bootprint? I doubt it. It seems that someone could have been around stalking the previous week. But we have no sightings of anyone, could it had been imagination. Could have been someone else entirely, a lot of messed up things happened in the 70's and early 80's. I know you think Gene did it Betty and you have that right. I just don't think he did but as to a suspect I have no clue. I do not have the resources to check out things from that far back. I do think it is a pedophil, probably early to mid twenties at the time, someone who worked at camp scott in the past either directly or indirectly, someone who definetely killed before and did later, I think it was someone who worked a third shift job at the time. But these are just assumptions, I was 4 at the time of this tragedy and I have no LE experience so I don't know what I am talking about most of the time. But I am drawn to this case for some reason it bothers me.

 

[Skigirl]

Marking my spot while I go back to the beginning and read the whole thread.

 

[Hatfield]

They picked the most suseptible tent in the whole camp with the three youngest girls by chance? Don't think so, in fact I bet it was the only tent in camp with 3 girls. It wasn't Fort Knox but besides Ted Bundy in the sorority house how many people can kill three people near 30 other people and not make a sound or wake a soul up. Ted Bundy left his victims in the bed and didn't zip them up in sleeping bags clean up and take the bodies by people on the way to placing them in a specific place. This was calculated and planned for some time and by someone knowing the camp and the schedule of things.

The cleaning up really bothers me. If it had only been Hart then I seriously doubt he would have cleaned up. There is no reason for it.

So that part alone makes me think there had to have been others involved. Maybe Hart too but someone else was there too that felt the need to clean up.

The cleaning up is such a bizarre thing. Almost like they were originally planning to just take the girls away altogether and make it look like they had gotten lost in the woods forever and not be a crime.

Then the plan changed IMO when either someone getting up made them realize they had to leave right away or they would be caught.

It almost sounds to me that at least 2 people were involved and maybe 3. I think one was an experienced criminal and the one who did the cleaning it may have been his first time ever participating in a serious crime. I think they were at odds with each other and when they abandoned the original plan of taking them altogether then the mean experienced one made sure to leave the bodies for a shock factor to be more hideous and the other person or persons were probably already running away by then. I do think a 3rd person may have acted as a lookout for the other two because they managed to avoid detection so well.

All just speculation of course.

 

[Hatfield]

Cave evidence - the fact that stolen sunglasses were found there is enough to convince me that Hart did stay at those caves. Add in the fact that at least 3 people had visited and/or stayed with Hart at the cave/cellar camp during previous jail escapes. Hart was a prison escapee for 3 years at the time of the GS murders. While he stayed with some friends/family in the area during that time, he also spent time in the caves, usually when LE was searching for him. One of the caves was located across from his mother's home where he could easily see the comings and goings of the local police and sheriff.

Hart was stuck hiding out in the general area for over 3 years. He was isolated, not like he could have an active social life. No dating, etc. It's not surprising he would be creeping around Camp Scott when scouts and counselors were there. Perhaps he escalated from voyerism (recall the incident the week before camp began when CarlaW reported hearing a man creeping around the staff building when she was sleeping there?). Peeking in windows and tents wasn't enough and he wanted to do more. I'd be willing to bet he was also engaged in voyeurism at homes in the Locust Grove area, too.

JMO, he needed an accomplice. Spending so much time hanging out in the area, he probably had visits from some of the teens and young men who lived nearby. Some were relatives. There were locals who reported seeing him out roaming around, hunting and fishing with young men. They could probably go hang out with him to drink, smoke MJ, do drugs, listen to his stories about prison life, etc. The men his own age were either in prison, jail or married with jobs and families, so he probably had to settle for hanging out with a younger group. He probably spent some time talking about his previous crimes, telling them how to abduct and rape women, break into people's houses while they're sleeping, etc. All those stories probably turned into a plot to kidnap and rape some girls from the local resource - Camp Scott.

The only question left, IMO, is which members of his young crew went with him that night?

This theory makes a lot of sense the way you describe it. I totally agree this is a good possibility.

 

[Betty P]

The cleaning up really bothers me. If it had only been Hart then I seriously doubt he would have cleaned up. There is no reason for it.

So that part alone makes me think there had to have been others involved. Maybe Hart too but someone else was there too that felt the need to clean up.

The cleaning up is such a bizarre thing. Almost like they were originally planning to just take the girls away altogether and make it look like they had gotten lost in the woods forever and not be a crime.

Then the plan changed IMO when either someone getting up made them realize they had to leave right away or they would be caught.

It almost sounds to me that at least 2 people were involved and maybe 3. I think one was an experienced criminal and the one who did the cleaning it may have been his first time ever participating in a serious crime. I think they were at odds with each other and when they abandoned the original plan of taking them altogether then the mean experienced one made sure to leave the bodies for a shock factor to be more hideous and the other person or persons were probably already running away by then. I do think a 3rd person may have acted as a lookout for the other two because they managed to avoid detection so well.

All just speculation of course.

I wonder if there was an accomplice who went into Camp Scott with him and another waiting outside, near the road or in a car. Then again, the dogs traced the scent through the woods and out to the road behind CS across Jack Shroff's property and on to one of the caves. But there were some witnesses who said they heard a car driving on that road very late the night of the murders. Just wondering who might have had a car or access to one.

Agree, also that it may have been an accomplice's idea to do the clean up.

 

[HoneyWest]

40 Years After 3 Girl Scouts Were Killed at Camp, Police Hope DNA Will Reveal Their Killer

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/40-years-after-3-girl-scouts-were-killed-at-camp-police-hope-dna-will-reveal-their-killer/ar-BBIwcXx?li=BBnbcA1

With $30,000 raised locally last year by Mayes County Sheriff Mike Reed, surviving evidence from the crime scene is undergoing DNA testing that Reed thinks may reveal a forensic profile of the killer that was unavailable four decades ago.

My stomach is doing flip flops over this. I hope and pray this is successful and we get a clear answer.

 

[Betty P]

40 Years After 3 Girl Scouts Were Killed at Camp, Police Hope DNA Will Reveal Their Killer

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/40-years-after-3-girl-scouts-were-killed-at-camp-police-hope-dna-will-reveal-their-killer/ar-BBIwcXx?li=BBnbcA1



My stomach is doing flip flops over this. I hope and pray this is successful and we get a clear answer.

Thanks for the link. I wonder what evidence they're using and what kind of DNA test?

 

[thenotebook]

And how long will it take and when should we expect to hear results? What an exciting development!

 

[HoneyWest]

New interview with Sheri Farmer, Lori Farmer's mother. The article references DNA testing, but no details about it.

My Daughter Was Killed at Girl Scout Camp: How an Okla. Mom Seeks Justice 40 Years After Slaying

http://people.com/crime/girl-scout-murder-mom-lori-farmer-speaks/

 

[Hatfield]

Thanks for the link. I wonder what evidence they're using and what kind of DNA test?

Yes this is exciting news. Maybe just to see if DNA matches anyone in Codis or matches Hart.

I have also seen where I think they can generate a computer "sketch" of a person just based on DNA now. Unless I saw it wrong I could have sworn I saw another case where they had a picture generated and all they had was DNA.

For this testing I bet they are just going to check it against Hart and any others they have DNA from. If Hart did not give his DNA they may be able to get familiar DNA from relative possibly. Or maybe one of his belongings they may have.

No matter what they are doing it is exciting and I give them credit for trying. Hope it gives results.

"Whether Reed hopes to confirm a link to the formerly accused Hart or make another match, he won’t say. But he hopes he can at last provide answers to the victims’ survivors, who have kept the girls’ story alive."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...ill-reveal-their-killer/ar-BBIwcXx?li=BBnbcA1

 

[Hatfield]

I confirmed that DNA technology does exist to do what I was saying about able to generate a sketch just from DNA. By chance I was watching an episode of "Killing Fields" last night on I think Discovery channel. They had on an episode where a company called "Parabon Nanolabs" did just what I was remembering. They were able to produce a computer sketch and age progression photo of a suspect just from DNA sample. It really is amazing and the episode explained the process really well.

The case was about Carrie Singer and its a multi part series and this particular episode focused on the sketch technology.

https://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/killing-fields/