OK OK - Jamison Family: Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned 08 Oct 2009 - #12

[Mapman]

Is it at all possible LE is saying "no foul play" to lull the perp(s) into a false sense of security? I mean, they'd be anxious anyway with the bodies found, but they'd be a lot more freaked out if the police came right out and said "homicide." Maybe the perp(s) are hoping there is not enough evidence and they'll get away with it, and LE is hoping that that will be to their benefit while they investigate quietly. I don't know. I may be giving LE too much credit...

I think anything is possible. I've read that they monitor sites such as this one to see if posters reveal anything incriminating. Apparently perps sometimes like to participate in dicussions about their crimes. It isn't difficult to imagine LE keeping something away from the public with the hopes that the perp will give himself away.

 

[Dallen]

I think anything is possible. I've read that they monitor sites such as this one to see if posters reveal anything incriminating. Apparently perps sometimes like to participate in dicussions about their crimes. It isn't difficult to imagine LE keeping something away from the public with the hopes that the perp will give himself away.

Now there's a creepy thought. What's your real name, Mapman? Lol, I kid.

 

[OkieGranny]

I'm not sure, but it seems like I read that Sherilynn's pistol was .22 caliber. If this is the case, I'm pretty sure that most of the the bullets would have remained in the bodies regardless of where they were killed. It seems to me like the bullets should still be where the bodies decomposed regardless of where they were located when shot. I would expect most soft point pistol bullets to remain in the bodies so even if they were shot with some other pistol the bullets might still be where the bodies decomposed. If they can find the bullets and they are not too badly deformed or fragmented, they could probably determine the caliber and possibly find the rifling marks. They would have to find Sherilynn's pistol to match the rifling to the bullets unless they could possibly find some other bullets known to have been fired by her pistol which isn't likely.

On the other hand if they were shot with full metal jacket pistol bullets from a more powerful cartridge, these could have passed through them and no longer be near the bodies. JMO.

Yes, a .22 caliber is what I've read as well. Interesting that you mentioned matching any bullets found to a previously fired bullet from that gun. If the story about Sherilyn firing into the ground near the handyman's feet earlier that summer is accurate, there should still be a bullet or two in the yard of the Eufaula house.

I wish we knew whether a metal detector was used to search the area where the remains were found.

 

[Mapman]

Now there's a creepy thought. What's your real name, Mapman? Lol, I kid.

That is funny! I actually wondered the same thing when I signed up on websleuths. This is the only forum I've ever been on, and I didn't sign up until after the remains were discovered. It seemed kind of suspicious to me. All of you that were members prior to their disapearance should be in the clear --- at least as to this crime.

 

[Mapman]

Yes, a .22 caliber is what I've read as well. Interesting that you mentioned matching any bullets found to a previously fired bullet from that gun. If the story about Sherilyn firing into the ground near the handyman's feet earlier that summer is accurate, there should still be a bullet or two in the yard of the Eufaula house.

I wish we knew whether a metal detector was used to search the area where the remains were found.

I hope that they did. It is difficult to imagine a valid reason why they wouldn't use a metal detector. You are probably right about the bullets in the ground. She also might have target practiced somewhere.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Belittling one UNLIKELY theory (murder suicide) in favor of another theory (exposure) that is just as UNLIKELY is just hard to "digest".

? ...I haven't "belittled" murder/suicide. It's in my list of the three likely situations that led to their deaths.

Anyway hyperthermia is very real and yes it can happen in 50 degree weather, however the other fact is-we can't, as you have admitted, point to instances where it has happened to a pair or group of people, so it is largely in and of itself theoretical as in how you are applying it and highly UNLIKELY.

Mitch1, I did provide you with an example, and I have no idea why you think the same situation with two or more people would be less likely.

The scenario of hypothermia for the Jamisons is not somehow rendered "highly unlikely" just because I don't feel like doing your googling for you. Why should I expend energy collecting data and links for a scenario you are obviously predisposed to disbelieve in anyway?

If you are that curious, feel free to google "hypothermia" and "state parks" or "mountain climbing" etc. I think I've explained hypothermia in general sufficiently here, as well as referencing a specific case I'm familiar with. Hypothermia is not a reality for one lost person but "theoretical" for two or more lost people; that makes no sense.

With the info that's come out recently, like OkieGranny's timeline and the HRD location, my initial leaning towards lost/exposure has lessened quite a bit, and I've mentioned that several times. I'm providing info, not trying to persuade people towards any one scenario.

 

[OkieGranny]

I looked up tax records for the property where the remains were found. It appears that the land is owned by the estate of a gentlemen with the same last name as this sign photographed by Bobby's Blackberry on October 8:

His estate owns 520 acres of Section 29, and all 640 acres of Section 32, Township 7 North, Range 20 East, which is directly to the south of Section 29. The remains were so near the dividing line between the two sections that it's difficult for me to be certain which section they were on. The mailing address on the tax records is a very exclusive neighborhood in the OKC metro area where very few of us ordinary mortals can afford to live, so my assumption is that any land this fellow owned on the mountain was related to the oil & gas business and not for residential purposes.

Something TooCurious posted the other day about oil & gas crews on the mountain stuck in my head, and I keep thinking about the various possibilities. Someone on one of those crews might not be a resident of the mountain, but would still know the roads well enough to navigate his way in and out of the area.

If the Jamisons were at the well site, even though it was decommissioned, and someone driving a truck bearing an O&G company's logo on its doors and possibly wearing a shirt or hat with that company's logo on it came along and started questioning them about what they were doing there, would they have felt caught off guard, like maybe they were doing something wrong? Maybe trespassing even though they thought they had permission to be there? And then found themselves in a situation they couldn't escape?

I keep thinking, wow, the neighbor DC sure knew a lot about the Jamisons' personal business, according to the statement he wrote for LE. Bobby was awfully chatty about things I would never tell a total stranger. Who did DC talk to after learning all this info? Was he gossiping with other local residents, or with an oil & gas crew passing through? Was he laughing about how this skinny guy with a crippled-up back thought he was going to move to the mountain and make a go of homesteading up there? He had a pretty wife, though, and a little girl, and they were heading up to that old well site up there to look at the land.

Did Bobby tell PC, the lady on the mountain, the same things he told DC? He did talk to her for 101 minutes during one phone call. What did they talk about for that long, and who did she talk to afterward?

Did some idle chitchat lead a sexual predator to believe there might be an opportunity up at the well site that day? It's impossible to say, so I'm filing it away with my various other possible scenarios. I do wonder, though, whether any O&G crews on the mountain that day were questioned and if their backgrounds were checked.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

That is funny! I actually wondered the same thing when I signed up on websleuths. This is the only forum I've ever been on, and I didn't sign up until after the remains were discovered. It seemed kind of suspicious to me. All of you that were members prior to their disappearance should be in the clear --- at least as to this crime.

Ha!

I think I'm guilty in the disappearance of Ron Tammen, the case that brought me to Websleuths. In a past life though, since it was 1953.


:ufo:

 

[TheCrankyChef]

That is funny! I actually wondered the same thing when I signed up on websleuths. This is the only forum I've ever been on, and I didn't sign up until after the remains were discovered. It seemed kind of suspicious to me. All of you that were members prior to their disapearance should be in the clear --- at least as to this crime.

Since I have been a long time lurker but a posting "Newbie" I honestly can say the last time I was anywhere near OK was a flyover for a connecting flight at DFW in 2001.

I just find it interesting that BJ & SJ went up a second day in a row with at least $32,000.00.

Is it speculation on LE's part that SJ had money in the brown satchel or has that been confirmed? Did LE check out the video at the house after they went missing? It would seem odd that no one had at least stopped by the house in the following days. But, then again, this whole case has been odd.

Who knows, maybe LE has a POI/POI's on their radar and proving something is a 'nother ballgame.

 

[TooCurious]

Okiegranny,
I think since this was not defined (foul play, M/S, or just lost) in the beginning that a lot of corners were cut. Even though it was decomissioned, there were still people in that area. The water tank where the hits were, is now gone? In other words it was still an active site, although less active than before. I think it makes for an interesting possibility.
The oil crew would know the roads, but maybe not where the residences are. Which brings it back to where they were dumped. Instead of being on a secluded part of the road, they were fairly close to houses. (relative to the surrounding area) When I say crew, that may be misleading. Some pumpers work as singles. It may or may not be anyone involved in the oilwell sites but it would be negligent to not look into it. IMO
Wonder how many pumpers travel backroads in the deep woods WITHOUT being armed.......

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Looking at this as someone not expert in this case, I think that, at present, Murder/Suicide has to be high on the list. The simple reason is that Sherilyn attempted suicide within, what, six weeks prior to them going missing. Granted, that doesn't rule out murder by another party, but, in the absence of other evidence, it is compelling.

We also have the bodies not being buried or hidden. There was more than enough time to hide the bodies, even if dumped later.

It wouldn't rule out exposure either.

 

[Mapman]

I thought of one too (also very unlikely, but still): In the area of the HRD hits, little Madyson climbs on some rocks, falls and hits her head, and tragically dies. Or maybe she just has a seizure of some kind, or chokes on a piece of candy, and dies that way. Her parents understandably lose it, and sit there holding her for hours in a grieving stupor, maybe even till it starts getting dark and/or starts raining. Then they rally themselves enough to try to get out of there, but they are a serious mess, confused and cold. While carrying her body, they get lost, and eventually die of hypothermia in the place where they were found.

If something happened to Madyson things would have immediately gone critical. A head injury might show up in the ME's report, but I wonder if we'll ever know if she had a seizure or choked. I wonder if the proximity and orientaton of the remains to each other might reveal something. I believe that if my child died and I also thought that I was going to die in the wilderness that I might have tried to bury her or cover her with stones to keep the animals from her.

 

[OkieGranny]

Okiegranny,
I think since this was not defined (foul play, M/S, or just lost) in the beginning that a lot of corners were cut. Even though it was decommissioned, there were still people in that area. The water tank where the hits were, is now gone? In other words it was still an active site, although less active than before. I think it makes for an interesting possibility.
The oil crew would know the roads, but maybe not where the residences are. Which brings it back to where they were dumped. Instead of being on a secluded part of the road, they were fairly close to houses. (relative to the surrounding area) When I say crew, that may be misleading. Some pumpers work as singles. It may or may not be anyone involved in the oilwell sites but it would be negligent to not look into it. IMO
Wonder how many pumpers travel backroads in the deep woods WITHOUT being armed.......

Yes, the water tank is gone now.

An O&G worker might not know where all the residences are, but he would know where O&G site are, and there's a gas well about 1,800 feet southwest of the location of the remains. Both on property owned by the estate of the late Mr. J.

Does it strike anyone else odd that of the three pictures taken on Bobby's Blackberry on October 8, two of O&G signs and the one of Madyson up on the bluff, that one showed the name of the owner of the property where the remains were found four years later? It appears from tax records that Mr. J's estate owns a whole lot of land in the area and his name probably appears on quite a few O&G signs, so if Bobby or whoever was handling the Blackberry at that time decided to take a picture of an O&G sign, it might be likely to have Mr. J's name on it.

But why take pictures of the signs at all? Why not take pictures of the property they were looking at, or the view from the top of the mountain, or pictures of each other at their potential new home? That's something I've never been able to figure out.

 

[poppygirl]

Yes, the water tank is gone now.

An O&G worker might not know where all the residences are, but he would know where O&G site are, and there's a gas well about 1,800 feet southwest of the location of the remains. Both on property owned by the estate of the late Mr. J.

Does it strike anyone else odd that of the three pictures taken on Bobby's Blackberry on October 8, two of O&G signs and the one of Madyson up on the bluff, that one showed the name of the owner of the property where the remains were found four years later? It appears from tax records that Mr. J's estate owns a whole lot of land in the area and his name probably appears on quite a few O&G signs, so if Bobby or whoever was handling the Blackberry at that time decided to take a picture of an O&G sign, it might be likely to have Mr. J's name on it.

But why take pictures of the signs at all? Why not take pictures of the property they were looking at, or the view from the top of the mountain, or pictures of each other at their potential new home? That's something I've never been able to figure out.

Maybe he planned to call (there were phone numbers on the signs) or wanted to research the owner or check to see if he was willing to sell other property...I don't know, but I do know I've taken pictures of signs like that before for later reference or to get a number rather than write it down.

 

[Dallen]

If we were talking about an adult and a child, it would make sense to find the remains together and consider lost/succumbing to the elements. If the adult passed, I don't believe a child (especially a 6 yo) would wander from the parent. But 2 adults? I can't imagine that one wouldn't leave to continue searching for help, no matter if 1 or 2 of the other people passed.

 

[Mapman]

Is it speculation on LE's part that SJ had money in the brown satchel or has that been confirmed?

I wish we knew. To my knowledge no one knows how much money they had. We have heard that they received 64K from a personal injury settlement, and we have heard that they received 64K from a land sale. My opinion regarding the money which is based on no more than my impression of the Jamisons apparent veracity and behavior is that the $32,000 in their truck was the only significant sum of money they had.

But if there was actually a bag of money with the Jamisons on the day they disappeared which cannot be located, we would have a clear motive for a murder. Presently, I know of no motive for murder by the persons with likely access to the Jamisons at the time of their disappearance. Murder without a motive would imply a psychopath or thrill killer as previous posters have mentioned. My opinion about motive and opportunity is definitely not shared by everyone on this forum, and hopefully they will also share their opinions with you.

 

[TooCurious]

Yes, the water tank is gone now.

An O&G worker might not know where all the residences are, but he would know where O&G site are, and there's a gas well about 1,800 feet southwest of the location of the remains. Both on property owned by the estate of the late Mr. J.

Does it strike anyone else odd that of the three pictures taken on Bobby's Blackberry on October 8, two of O&G signs and the one of Madyson up on the bluff, that one showed the name of the owner of the property where the remains were found four years later? It appears from tax records that Mr. J's estate owns a whole lot of land in the area and his name probably appears on quite a few O&G signs, so if Bobby or whoever was handling the Blackberry at that time decided to take a picture of an O&G sign, it might be likely to have Mr. J's name on it.

But why take pictures of the signs at all? Why not take pictures of the property they were looking at, or the view from the top of the mountain, or pictures of each other at their potential new home? That's something I've never been able to figure out.

I agree with you on the Oil Well worker fitting into the body dump, not knowing there were houses there scenario. It makes sense. The question about the water tank was to show that people from O&G were still going to that site. It wasn't completely decomissioned yet and O&G employees were still going up there. Some of these pumpers hunt (illegally) these sights. Hunting season was on (bow season) and someone could have been up there trying to get a deer (with rifle) when opportunity knocked. The time frame is about right for when you should start getting in the woods to hunt. (Around 3) Going up as Jamison's coming down?? They should really check the employees during that time frame. Of course pumpers aren't the only one's that go to these opened up clear areas deep in the woods to hunt .

 

[OkieGranny]

I agree with you on the Oil Well worker fitting into the body dump, not knowing there were houses there scenario. It makes sense. The question about the water tank was to show that people from O&G were still going to that site. It wasn't completely decomissioned yet and O&G employees were still going up there. Some of these pumpers hunt (illegally) these sights. Hunting season was on (bow season) and someone could have been up there trying to get a deer (with rifle) when opportunity knocked. The time frame is about right for when you should start getting in the woods to hunt. (Around 3) Going up as Jamison's coming down?? They should really check the employees during that time frame. Of course pumpers aren't the only one's that go to these opened up clear areas deep in the woods to hunt .

Hmm, bow season? Could a bow hunter have accidentally shot one of the Jamisons and killed the other two to cover it all up? Seems kind of extreme, but sometimes a person in panic mode will do really stupid things. Maybe especially so if they've just accidentally killed a child.

 

[TooCurious]

That is unlikely, bow hunters are usually taking shots within 40 yards. Just because it is bow season doesn't mean people are hunting with bows. Small caliber guns are easy to disguise as an arrow wound. What's more is that unless you take it to a processor, no one will question it. The opening of season just gives you a reason to have a deer in possession. By and large bow hunters are the most ethical.
I could see a pumper having a gun and taking shots occasionally if a deer presents itself.
Possibly, pumper going to check the area and runs into them and takes advantage.
I still come back to why?
Money? Why was the truck not gone through? Wallets were obviously not on them?
Sexual? IMO, this is BINGO!
Personal? Someone would have to follow them or lay and wait for them to come down the mountain. If that is the case, why not do it sooner instead of waiting hours?

 

[Mitch1]

A theory for the HRD hits:There could have been 2 purps. 1 of the purps secured 2 of the Jamisons in their vehicle and one of the Jamisons took off running into the woods and was chased by 1 of the purps and shot dead (while the skulls didn't have bullet holes, this Jamison could have been shot in the chest) around where the water well was. The purp that shot the Jamison could have climbed onto the tower to get a birds eye view of where their vehicle was-since they had just chased someone into the woods they would need to reorient themselves to find their way back. Then of course removed from that site and dumped at the remains site.
Disclaimer:I still think they are alive though