OK OK - Jamison Family: Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned 08 Oct 2009 - #12

[Mapman]

This is downright crazy! Would they be covering for one of their own? I'm so frustrated right now!

Oops. Sorry that I brought up the subject of the Sheriff's office with my last comment. I doubt that they are covering for one of their own by not giving coordinates. This is the third Sheriff's administration that has been involved in the case and I'm not familiar with too many instances where one administration gave a hoot about covering possible mistakes made by a previous administration. They probably just don't know if they can release the info. Maybe they have to get that answer from the OSBI and they are either waiting for an answer or they have not taken the time to call.

 

[Oriah]

Hey ya'll. Just wanted to let you know I'm still here and keeping up. Put a call in to a friend at ATF to see if we can get any more info. For about the 20th time, lol.

 

[little726]

Hey ya'll. Just wanted to let you know I'm still here and keeping up. Put a call in to a friend at ATF to see if we can get any more info. For about the 20th time, lol.

Glad you're here, Oriah! Just where have you been? :seeya:ullhair:

 

[Oriah]

Busy as all get out! Glad to have a few minutes to check in and very glad to see you, little!

 

[TheCrankyChef]

It almost seems that there was a pre-arranged meeting maybe around 3:00 pm? I'm going by the timeline when Madyson's picture was taken. It takes a normal person about 7 minutes to walk 100 yards (.06 mile) according to this http://www.walkingenglishman.com/walktime.aspx. I put in 30 meters for climbing & descent with a 2 minute break.

Also, going by the phone records, Bobby's cell phone didn't have a lot of activity on the 8th so I'm thinking he was meeting up with someone he knew. And that someone brought another person with him. One person drives out the vehicle they came in with and the other drives the Jamison's truck and leaves it in a spot so the well site isn't easily accessible by another vehicle.

Motive? Crime of passion (love, hate - I'm ruling out love on this one), greed, opportunity. I think the money (if there was any) would have been a bonus on top of what really happened.

The murder/suicide just doesn't sit well with me at all. Seriously, if you are going to wipe out your whole family, wouldn't the pet be in that scenario?

It would be interesting to find out what was found with the remains. Or what wasn't - the truck keys would come to mind.

 

[Mitch1]

There is another very informative post by NS (and if she's reading these-thank you) on the FTJ website

https://www.facebook.com/FINDTHEJAMISONS

 

[Mapman]

This topo includes the latest reported location of the remains at about 11:00 O'clock on the red ring. Also shown are the two most prominent roads from the HRD clue locations about 1:00 O'clock from the truck about halfway to the red ring. The road looping north from the clues appears to be a better road than the one leading to the west from the clues. The four blue markers near the clues are structures that appear to be homes or cabins in the vicinity of the clues. The farthest home from the clues is about .6 aerial miles and the nearest is about .3 aerial miles. To kill all three of the Jamisons with a firearm the hypothetical killer would have had to fire three or more shots, and if he was using a high powered rifle or shotgun, the noise might have been heard if people were occupying the structures.

There doesn't appear to be a significant trail/road that would provide a direct route from the truck to the HRD clue area which suggests that the Jamisons probably couldn't have walked to the clue area from the truck before sunset. It might be significant that all but one of the clues is located about 60-80 yards from the road, and it also seems odd to me that someone would decide to commit the murders so near homes/cabins when there were so many more secluded places - assuming that the structures were there in 2009.

 

[OkieGranny]

There is another very informative post by NS (and if she's reading these-thank you) on the FTJ website

https://www.facebook.com/FINDTHEJAMISONS

Ditto on the thank you. Wow, eight months to get an ID via DNA in a 2012 Oklahoma case. That's kind of what I was afraid of.

There doesn't appear to be a significant trail/road that would provide a direct route from the truck to the HRD clue area which suggests that the Jamisons probably couldn't have walked to the clue area from the truck before sunset. It might be significant that all but one of the clues is located about 60-80 yards from the road, and it also seems odd to me that someone would decide to commit the murders so near homes/cabins when there were so many more secluded places - assuming that the structures were there in 2009.

Snipped and BBM

Just FYI if anyone follows an older case and a question like this arises, there are ways to get different views of an area over time. I've mentioned briefly two that I use, historical imagery on Google Earth and the website Historic Aerials.

If you've never tried Google Earth, it's really cool. It's not a website, you do have to download it, but it gives you many more capabilities for exploring than Google Maps or Bing Maps, plus you can add placemarks, trace roads (which will also give you mileage from one point to another when it's not a straight line), choose a different angle of view instead of directly overhead to get a better perspective, or descend all the way down to ground level in a particular spot and get a 360 view of the surrounding topography. Lots of interesting things you can do with it.

If you look at this area of Latimer County on Google Earth, the current satellite view is dated March 11, 2012. If you click on View and then Historical Imagery, you'll be able to see how the area looked during different seasons of the year and what structures were present in September 2010, May 2008, October 2006, July 2005, August 2003, and March 1995. The older images tend to be less clear and sharp than the current ones, but may provide helpful info for an older case like the Jamisons' disappearance in 2009.

http://www.google.com/earth/

For even older cases, you may find Historic Aerials helpful. The most recent image it has for this part of Latimer County is from 2003, but one example of how I've used it was to explore certain parts of Staten Island at the time Sylvia Lwowski went missing in 1975. There's a slider at the bottom of the image that lets you zoom in and out and you can hold down your click button to "grab" the image and move it around to find the specific place you're looking for.

http://www.historicaerials.com/

 

[OkieGranny]

It almost seems that there was a pre-arranged meeting maybe around 3:00 pm? I'm going by the timeline when Madyson's picture was taken. It takes a normal person about 7 minutes to walk 100 yards (.06 mile) according to this http://www.walkingenglishman.com/walktime.aspx. I put in 30 meters for climbing & descent with a 2 minute break.

Also, going by the phone records, Bobby's cell phone didn't have a lot of activity on the 8th so I'm thinking he was meeting up with someone he knew. And that someone brought another person with him. One person drives out the vehicle they came in with and the other drives the Jamison's truck and leaves it in a spot so the well site isn't easily accessible by another vehicle.

Motive? Crime of passion (love, hate - I'm ruling out love on this one), greed, opportunity. I think the money (if there was any) would have been a bonus on top of what really happened.

The murder/suicide just doesn't sit well with me at all. Seriously, if you are going to wipe out your whole family, wouldn't the pet be in that scenario?

It would be interesting to find out what was found with the remains. Or what wasn't - the truck keys would come to mind.

No, I don't get murder/suicide at all from this. Or lost in the woods. Looking at the latest reported location of the remains, and the terrain between there and the well site, and considering how wet and muddy the ground would have been, it would be an arduous hike for someone in average physical condition to travel on foot from one location to the other. Bobby was too physically compromised with his bad back, and Madyson was only six. The distance was 2.7 miles as the crow flies, but traveling in a straight line would have meant some uphill climbs. I traced a more meandering cross-country route that avoided those uphill climbs, and the distance was more like four and a half miles.

Bobby's keys are another reason I'm wondering if a metal detector was used in the area where the remains were found. Were they in his pocket? Or did someone else have them?

Interesting thought, about parking the truck to block access to the well site.

Motive? Well, aside from the $32,000 hidden in the truck, there were hundreds of dollars in cash left in Bobby's wallet and Sherilyn's purse, so robbery doesn't seem to be it. There are too many other possibilities and, with the limited amount of info we have, any one of them seems just about as likely as any other. Was it the inheritance from Bobby Sr's estate? Or an ex-husband fed up with years of contentious legal battles over child support and visitation? Did the Jamisons see something they shouldn't have up on that mountain? Did they have the spectacular bad luck to meet up with a psychopath?

The possibility that I least want to consider is that someone saw two females and a physically weak male in an isolated area as an opportunity. I looked up RSOs in the vicinity yesterday and found over a dozen, with charges ranging from indecent exposure to first degree rape. One in particular that stood out to me had been sentenced to 30 years for first degree rape and forcible sodomy and was released after serving 14 years in April of 2008, the year before the Jamisons went missing.

 

[TobyWong*]

Does anyone have a link to actual pictures or video of the roads we are talking about here? Any local that may have posted the own home videos or has anyone done a "walk through" of sorts? Its hard to get a feel for the terrain, especially where the Jamisons would've been walking if that were the case. Tia.

Also. On the latest map, near 11 'clock, it says campfire. Is that a known spot because of the well site so workers or hikers have been known to use that spot to set up camp? Or is that just a spot where campfire ashes were spotted & referenced so it made the map?

 

[OkieGranny]

Does anyone have a link to actual pictures or video of the roads we are talking about here? Any local that may have posted the own home videos or has anyone done a "walk through" of sorts? Its hard to get a feel for the terrain, especially where the Jamisons would've been walking if that were the case. Tia.

This is the only video that I know of, shot from a vehicle driving north up the road to the well site. It's probably typical of other roads on the mountain, and maybe better than some. If you watch closely, you'll see the road that turns off to the left toward Smokestack Hollow. The location of the remains would be off to the northwest on the other side of the mountain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUJJ8E0EFSo

There are a few photos taken at well site here, looking off over the area in different directions:

http://okmpjamisons.weebly.com/photos.html

 

[Dallen]

No, I don't get murder/suicide at all from this. Or lost in the woods. Looking at the latest reported location of the remains, and the terrain between there and the well site, and considering how wet and muddy the ground would have been, it would be an arduous hike for someone in average physical condition to travel on foot from one location to the other. Bobby was too physically compromised with his bad back, and Madyson was only six. The distance was 2.7 miles as the crow flies, but traveling in a straight line would have meant some uphill climbs. I traced a more meandering cross-country route that avoided those uphill climbs, and the distance was more like four and a half miles.

Bobby's keys are another reason I'm wondering if a metal detector was used in the area where the remains were found. Were they in his pocket? Or did someone else have them?

Interesting thought, about parking the truck to block access to the well site.

Motive? Well, aside from the $32,000 hidden in the truck, there were hundreds of dollars in cash left in Bobby's wallet and Sherilyn's purse, so robbery doesn't seem to be it. There are too many other possibilities and, with the limited amount of info we have, any one of them seems just about as likely as any other. Was it the inheritance from Bobby Sr's estate? Or an ex-husband fed up with years of contentious legal battles over child support and visitation? Did the Jamisons see something they shouldn't have up on that mountain? Did they have the spectacular bad luck to meet up with a psychopath?

The possibility that I least want to consider is that someone saw two females and a physically weak male in an isolated area as an opportunity. I looked up RSOs in the vicinity yesterday and found over a dozen, with charges ranging from indecent exposure to first degree rape. One in particular that stood out to me had been sentenced to 30 years for first degree rape and forcible sodomy and was released after serving 14 years in April of 2008, the year before the Jamisons went missing.

I agree with all of this. Those are all the scenarios playing out in my mind, too. Very interesting about the 14 years served, then getting out the year before the disappearance. How close of a vicinity are you talking?

And yes, the keys will be a huge factor in this. If we find out that the keys were on Bobby when found, then ok. But if they were not, then someone else has them. The person who checked the phone's VM on the 12th perhaps?

 

[Mapman]

Does anyone have a link to actual pictures or video of the roads we are talking about here? Any local that may have posted the own home videos or has anyone done a "walk through" of sorts? Its hard to get a feel for the terrain, especially where the Jamisons would've been walking if that were the case. Tia.

Also. On the latest map, near 11 'clock, it says campfire. Is that a known spot because of the well site so workers or hikers have been known to use that spot to set up camp? Or is that just a spot where campfire ashes were spotted & referenced so it made the map?

It looks to me like a regularly used camping area, but I don't know for sure. If you zoom in on the spot with Google Earth you can clearly see a rock fire ring and other items that look like they have been placed there by someone. The gounds also looks clearer than most of the nearby areas. There were reports that the remains were near a popular campsite, northwest of the truck, and 2.7 aerial miles from the truck. The lastest location being discussed is the point labeled "REM" slightly northeast of the campfire and it seems to fit the descriptions of the location pretty well. I would post a high resolution maps of the area, but the map images are too large to upload on websleuths.

 

[OkieGranny]

I agree with all of this. Those are all the scenarios playing out in my mind, too. Very interesting about the 14 years served, then getting out the year before the disappearance. How close of a vicinity are you talking?

And yes, the keys will be a huge factor in this. If we find out that the keys were on Bobby when found, then ok. But if they were not, then someone else has them. The person who checked the phone's VM on the 12th perhaps?

Kinta, so pretty close.

ETA: Well, Kinta for that one. Others from there, Wilburton, and Red Oak. I may have looked at Quinton too, but don't have my notes with me right now.

 

[TooCurious]

It looks to me like a regularly used camping area, but I don't know for sure. If you zoom in on the spot with Google Earth you can clearly see a rock fire ring and other items that look like they have been placed there by someone. The gounds also looks clearer than most of the nearby areas. There were reports that the remains were near a popular campsite, northwest of the truck, and 2.7 aerial miles from the truck. The lastest location being discussed is the point labeled "REM" slightly northeast of the campfire and it seems to fit the descriptions of the location pretty well. I would post a high resolution maps of the area, but the map images are too large to upload on websleuths.

They couldn't have been pretty close to a popular camp site for 4 years, lying out in the open without being discovered IMO. Either they weren't close or it wasn't popular, I don't think it can be both.

 

[Mapman]

Bobby's keys are another reason I'm wondering if a metal detector was used in the area where the remains were found. Were they in his pocket? Or did someone else have them?

It seems like a metal detector could also locate any bullets that were left in the bodies. If there are no bullets in the area of the remains or bullet holes in the skulls doesn't it seem like murder is less likely? I suppose that if they were shot in their bodies at another location with a bullet from a powerful rifle, the bullets could pass through their bodies and then if the bodies were relocated, no bullet could be found. But if the hypothetical killer(s) stabbed, choked, or beat them to death wouldn't we expect some signs of trauma or defensive wounds to be found? That would be quite a fracas.

 

[Mapman]

They couldn't have been pretty close to a popular camp site for 4 years, lying out in the open without being discovered IMO. Either they weren't close or it wasn't popular, I don't think it can be both.

I'm only repeating what I have heard. The reported location of the remains is close to the campsite, but not immediately adjacent to it. Also the reported location of the remains does not apear to be completely in the open when viewed with Google Earth. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the latest reported location is accurate, but I wouldn't be shocked if the reported location is not accurate.

 

[TooCurious]

"The possibility that I least want to consider is that someone saw two females and a physically weak male in an isolated area as an opportunity. I looked up RSOs in the vicinity yesterday and found over a dozen, with charges ranging from indecent exposure to first degree rape. One in particular that stood out to me had been sentenced to 30 years for first degree rape and forcible sodomy and was released after serving 14 years in April of 2008, the year before the Jamisons went missing."

This, I am sad to say, is what I think is the most plausible. It is not a robbery, could be drugs, but with most drug deals gone bad, robbery is the real motive. (Drugs or money) If they want drugs that bad, they would have went after money too, to buy drugs. They didn't know about the 32k but they did know that the Jamison's wallets weren't present and they would have went back to the truck looking. IMO

It was either sexual or personal as best I can figure. I think that Sherilyne and Madyson would have been held for a time in this scenario, Bobby being killed same day and body removed. If LE only found his body the search would get really intense. So killer takes Bobby's body and eventually kills the other and dumps all three. Terrible if this is how it played out but other than murder/suicide, I can think of no other logical scenario. Hope I am wrong.

 

[TooCurious]

I'm only repeating what I have heard. The reported location of the remains is close to the campsite, but not immediately adjacent to it. Also the reported location of the remains does not apear to be completely in the open when viewed with Google Earth. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the latest reported location is accurate, but I wouldn't be shocked if the reported location is not accurate.

Yeah, I know this wasn't your statement. I have read it elsewhere too. I was just pointing out what I thought wrong with it. Camps=campfires, the area is in the open and someone would need to get wood from the denser area I would think. (Discovery of skeletons) I think the spot I saw was within 50 yards of the campsite. I may be wrong. My point being if it was "popular" firewood would not be easily found without venturing into the deeper woods and most campers, the ones I know, like to go "exploring". I have to think any LE search would include a "popular" campsite within 3 miles of the truck.

However, this would support a body dump after the main search.

 

[wfgodot]

Still mulling over the apparently missing majority of the teeth. Rage-fed grand guignol-like over-the-top demise, or merely a product of nature, or someone hoping to slow victim ID?

Lots of whys? and wherefores? here, aren't there. The list goes on forever.