OK OK - Jamison Family: Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned 08 Oct 2009 - #12

[Mitch1]

Exactly -- this is what makes the exposure vs. murder question so difficult. Anything could have happened.

The question isn't whether the Jamisons voluntarily took a highly unlikely, pain-inducing, pointless, inconvenient five mile stroll. Of course they didn't. (Not even the "exposure" camp is claiming this -- though it's sometimes made to sound that way <mod snip>.)

The question is whether the Jamisons could cover X amount of ground in Y type of terrain in Z amount of time if they were lost, confused, and slowly succumbing to the irrationality and eventual death of hypothermia. The answer is, yes.

To those who think it was too warm and/or just too crazy for healthy(ish) adults to get lost so easily then just "lie down and die" when it wasn't even freezing, or whatever... I don't know what to refer to you if you haven't already digested the good info here on the disturbing ease of both getting lost and getting hypothermia.

That said, though... IF those HRD hit locations were in fact accurate and did point to deceased humans having been in that spot, but the Jamisons' remains were found miles away, I'm not sure how it could have been anything but murder.

(Does anyone have a theoretical explanation for that which doesn't involve murder?? I'd love to hear any thoughts.)

I guess my current opinion is as follows, though I can't even use percentages anymore, it's all become too nebulous...

1) Murder - assuming accuracy of HRD clues and remains location, likely (albeit baffling).
2) Lost/exposure - assuming nothing about anything, still entirely possible.
3) Murder/suicide - assuming concealment of gun presence by LE, still possible.

Arrggghhh.

Since I'm having trouble "digesting" they died from exposure, perhaps you could reference a few situations in which, at least 2 people traveling together, in 44 or above degree weather actually died from exposure!

 

[Pensfan]

Exactly -- this is what makes the exposure vs. murder question so difficult. Anything could have happened.

The question isn't whether the Jamisons voluntarily took a highly unlikely, pain-inducing, pointless, inconvenient five mile stroll. Of course they didn't. (Not even the "exposure" camp is claiming this -- though it's sometimes made to sound that way <mod snip>.)

The question is whether the Jamisons could cover X amount of ground in Y type of terrain in Z amount of time if they were lost, confused, and slowly succumbing to the irrationality and eventual death of hypothermia. The answer is, yes.

To those who think it was too warm and/or just too crazy for healthy(ish) adults to get lost so easily then just "lie down and die" when it wasn't even freezing, or whatever... I don't know what to refer to you if you haven't already digested the good info here on the disturbing ease of both getting lost and getting hypothermia.

That said, though... IF those HRD hit locations were in fact accurate and did point to deceased humans having been in that spot, but the Jamisons' remains were found miles away, I'm not sure how it could have been anything but murder.

(Does anyone have a theoretical explanation for that which doesn't involve murder?? I'd love to hear any thoughts.)

I guess my current opinion is as follows, though I can't even use percentages anymore, it's all become too nebulous...

1) Murder - assuming accuracy of HRD clues and remains location, likely (albeit baffling).
2) Lost/exposure - assuming nothing about anything, still entirely possible.
3) Murder/suicide - assuming concealment of gun presence by LE, still possible.

Arrggghhh.

bbm
If someone asked us if we thought another normal appearing family tried to buy magic bullets to kill evil spirits on their roof, we would laugh and say "of course they didn't". We sadly know that the Jamisons were having bizarre delusions and painting bizarre statements on their property as well as living in a storage container (There are numerous weeks in Oklahoma that the temp is over 105 degrees. The temp can also drop into the single digits with wind chills in the negative numbers = IRRATIONAL behavior for people that own a nice home only feet from the storage container.) People that suffer with bipolar disorder and depression (chronic pain leads to depression in many people) can become very delusional. They can believe in things and do things that are very irrational like pointlessly walking miles and miles. For all we know, the mentally ill Jamisons could have been hearing voices from God ordering them to walk miles and miles.

 

[OkieGranny]

bbm
If someone asked us if we thought another normal appearing family tried to buy magic bullets to kill evil spirits on their roof, we would laugh and say "of course they didn't". We sadly know that the Jamisons were having bizarre delusions and painting bizarre statements on their property as well as living in a storage container (There are numerous weeks in Oklahoma that the temp is over 105 degrees. The temp can also drop into the single digits with wind chills in the negative numbers. IRRATIONAL behavior for people that own a nice home only feet from the storage container.) People that suffer with bipolar disorder and depression (chronic pain leads to depression in many people) can become very delusional. They can believe in things and do things that are very irrational like pointlessly walking miles and miles. For all we know the Jamisons could have been hearing voices from God telling them to walk miles and miles.

The Jamisons were not living in the storage container. They were living in their house.

Per mtrooper:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6388077&postcount=86.

I was in the shipping container and it was FULL of crap. It was basically full of all the stuff you would put in your garage. There was some lawn equipment etc., there was a lot of stuff from back when their house burned down that they had kept in there. An old file cabinet with some OLD paper work. Really just a bunch of random crap.

And in Post #4499 on this Topix thread:

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/oklahoma-city-ok/TAG238Q0RV9NNM07K/p221?redirid=1344142699

NS explains that when the Jamisons rebuilt after the fire, the garage of the Eufaula house was turned into extra living space, so the container held lawn equipment, tools, and other things that would normally be stored in the garage.

 

[TooCurious]

As I understand it, the average person's walking speed on a flat, clear surface when just strolling (i.e., not looking for anything on the ground) is between 2.5 and 3 mph.

Why would a pace of 1 mph, in the woods, while looking for human remains, be "too slow"?

Ok, you asked.. I said less than 1 mph also, the speed of these searchers is just over a1/4 mile per hour.
A 1 mph would probably be a good speed. IMO

Average stride for an average male is 28.8". To reach 3 miles per hour he has to take a stride and be over 3/4 through his next stride per second to make that happen.
28.8x1.83=52.8" per second (rounded)
52.8"=4.4' per second
4.4'x60 (sec)= 264' minute
264'x60 (min)= 15840' per hour=3 miles per hour

The time used in chart shows 1 searcher completing a mile in 3.5 Hours (Bottom of chart shows a mile with 528 searchers spaced 10' apart taking 3.5 hours.)
5,280'÷3.5=1508.57 feet per hour (rounded)
1508.57÷60 (min)=25.14' per min
25.14÷60 (sec)= 0.42 feet per second!
That is about 5" a second! Not even stepping toe to heel but more half stepping (toe to mid foot) It is too slow!
This is a missing person search not an evidentiary search. The difference being going slow enough to find a shell casing vs going slow enough to see a body. (Not to mention they are looking for 3 bodies) would you search with the same speed if looking for a semi truck and trailer vs a skateboard in the woods? Of course not! Hopefully I have explained my position well enough and have made it simple enough to follow. I am not saying they should be taking the full 52.8" per second but I am saying they shouldn't be taking 5" per second. Stand up and try it out. There is a better median. These are just averages but should prove the point I was making. The head of the search crew can speed the pace of the searchers, and should dependant on the situation.

 

[TooCurious]

You would literally be able to cover more ground on your hands and knees.

 

[Mitch1]

Amen Brother, Go TELL IT on the Mountain-Panola Mountain that is
MMmm HHmm I know thats right!!

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Ok, you asked.. I said less than 1 mph also, the speed of these searchers is just over a1/4 mile per hour.

Well, I didn't know that by "less than 1 mph" you meant "1/4 mph." I thought you meant "about 1 mph" because that seemed about right to me, too -- about a third slower than average walking speed because of terrain and because of looking back and forth at the ground over a width of several feet.

A 1 mph would probably be a good speed. IMO

Right... that's what I was thinking when I said 1 mph... lol

I didn't mean to be imprecise in my response, but what I responded to was imprecise. Okay, so by "less than 1 mph" you meant "1/4" of a mile -- got it now. I appreciate the clarification. Carry on.

 

[Mapman]

That said, though... IF those HRD hit locations were in fact accurate and did point to deceased humans having been in that spot, but the Jamisons' remains were found miles away, I'm not sure how it could have been anything but murder.

(Does anyone have a theoretical explanation for that which doesn't involve murder?? I'd love to hear any thoughts.)

If the clues were previously viewed by LE as unconfirmed, I agree with a previous poster who felt that merely finding the remains should be sufficient to cause LE to take another look at the clues. If the clues can be confirmed or found likely to be evidence of human remains, it is difficult to imagine a scenario that doesn't involve foul play or at least some very strange behavior.

I'm not pushing the following scenario at all, but something like it would be consistent with no foul play. Little Jimmy comes running into the cabin and tells Papa that he and his dog Rufus found three dead people up on the butte in the north forty. Pa decides that he doesn't want the laws running all over his property asking a bunch of nosy questions so he loads them up and moves them to somewhere else. Extremely unlikely, but it wouldn't necessarily involve murder.

 

[TooCurious]

Shamus,
My bad, I was way to flippant with the "less than one mile" statement.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Since I'm having trouble "digesting" they died from exposure, perhaps you could reference a few situations in which, at least 2 people traveling together, in 44 or above degree weather actually died from exposure!

Providing examples of what you're asking for is unnecessary, because plenty is already known about hypothermia under non-freezing conditions. It's frightening because it creeps up on you before you realize the gravity of the situation. If you're lost, it's below 50 degrees, it's windy and/or wet, you're not dressed warmly and can't build a fire (even just from hypothermia-induced confusion about what to do), you are in danger. Period. It can happen, it has happened, and the conditions already discussed here could have made it possible for the Jamisons.

Off the top of my head, I can give you one example, the Brandon Swanson case which I have referenced before. I apologize it is not a case of "at least 2 people traveling together" (which wouldn't really matter, except that they'd be able to get some body heat from each other, for a while). S&R experts searched for Brandon's remains as best they could in the large area they mapped out from their calculations. They compiled data about the terrain, the amount of light that night, his probable walking speed as a 19 year old male, and how long he would have been able to walk before succumbing to hypothermia. This was on May 14th, 2008. The temperature at night was in the 40s, with no rain, if I recall correctly.

I think a lot was stacked against the Jamisons in the possible-hypothermia department, in addition to the weather, assuming for the moment that they did get lost: their thinness, their probable insufficient clothing, extra fatigue from the terrain and from inevitably having to carry the child after a while. If they hadn't eaten recently, that wouldn't help.

(Again, this is hypothetical. Again, I am now leaning towards murder. Again, this info is not meant to argue specifically that this IS how they died. It's just one possibility.)

Confusion is the first symptom of hypothermia, and if you're lost and panicky already, that obviously compounds the problem. After the shivering stage, the muscles stiffen, and that slows you down -- and that makes you colder. Drowsiness is another symptom, and once you sit down to rest, your temperature drops even more... et cetera.

Finally, here's some info from the US Forest Service, emphasis mine.

Hypothermia Myths

In the past hypothermia was referred to as "freezing to death" or simply "exposure". This is misleading because many cases of hypothermia occur during the summer at temperatures well above freezing.

What is Hypothermia?

It is lowering the inner core temperature of the body. If uncorrected, the victim can die within a few hours. During the summer, it most frequently strikes fatigued people who get wet and then are exposed to the wind. As air blows over the body, it removes heat very quickly, especially if the body is wet. As the body temperature decreases, even a few degrees, it is undergoing hypothermia. If this continues, cold will reach the brain, depriving the victim of judgement and reasoning power.​

http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/carson/learning/safety-ethics/?cid=stelprdb5296034

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Shamus,
My bad, I was way to flippant with the "less than one mile" statement.

I made an assumption about what you meant, so it was my bad too.

 

[Lolacat]

Hi, I am new to this thread

Ive been watching the Disappeared episode about the Jamison family and I was transfixed by the video footage of them carrying boxes back and forth to their car. Their behaviour was incredibly strange. I had a couple of thoughts.

1. Drugs. This would explain their weight loss and bizarre robotic behaviour.

2. Religious Fasting. Fasting for religious reasons is actually pretty common (I've done it myself) in the Christian faith (and many other religions) and this would also explain their weight loss and robotic behaviour. Fasting really takes it out of you with lack of energy etc and at the very least, it makes you feel lethargic and tired. It also has to be done properly and safely. I understand they had some unusual ideas about spirits in or around their house. Could they have been fasting in an attempt to get rid of them? Is this connected to their disappearance in any way?

My apologies if this has already been discussed, I haven't had a chance to look through the entire thread yet.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

I'm not pushing the following scenario at all, but something like it would be consistent with no foul play. Little Jimmy comes running into the cabin and tells Papa that he and his dog Rufus found three dead people up on the butte in the north forty. Pa decides that he doesn't want the laws running all over his property asking a bunch of nosy questions so he loads them up and moves them to somewhere else. Extremely unlikely, but it wouldn't necessarily involve murder.

Ohhh, good no-foul-play scenario. A lot of people deeply mistrust the police, even people with nothing particular to hide. Not to be stereotypical but my mother is from rural Kentucky, and this attitude is not uncommon amongst rural folks.

I thought of one too (also very unlikely, but still): In the area of the HRD hits, little Madyson climbs on some rocks, falls and hits her head, and tragically dies. Or maybe she just has a seizure of some kind, or chokes on a piece of candy, and dies that way. Her parents understandably lose it, and sit there holding her for hours in a grieving stupor, maybe even till it starts getting dark and/or starts raining. Then they rally themselves enough to try to get out of there, but they are a serious mess, confused and cold. While carrying her body, they get lost, and eventually die of hypothermia in the place where they were found.

Like you, not promoting this theory, just trying to come up with a no-foul-play scenario that accounts for the HRD hits far away from the site of the remains.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Little Jimmy comes running into the cabin and tells Papa that he and his dog Rufus found three dead people up on the butte in the north forty.

P.S. I like Jimmy, Papa, and Rufus. Now I want to write a short story about this.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Is it at all possible LE is saying "no foul play" to lull the perp(s) into a false sense of security? I mean, they'd be anxious anyway with the bodies found, but they'd be a lot more freaked out if the police came right out and said "homicide." Maybe the perp(s) are hoping there is not enough evidence and they'll get away with it, and LE is hoping that that will be to their benefit while they investigate quietly. I don't know. I may be giving LE too much credit...

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Thinking about murder/suicide for a moment. If 3 bodies were found, and they each had gunshot wounds (which we don't know), and Sherilynn's gun is with the bodies... maybe LE would assume murder/suicide and call it no foul play... but that wouldn't prove they weren't murdered.

Someone else could have killed them using Sherilynn's gun. Or, a different gun. If they picked up the shells or casings or bullets, I guess forensics would have to be done on the bullet holes themselves, and I don't know how accurate that can get with skeletons.

Maybe Sherilynn held her gun to someone's head, or even fired a warning shot -- we know she has done this before, to the handyman -- and they got the gun away from her. Something like that.

 

[poppygirl]

Thinking about murder/suicide for a moment. If 3 bodies were found, and they each had gunshot wounds (which we don't know), and Sherilynn's gun is with the bodies... maybe LE would assume murder/suicide and call it no foul play... but that wouldn't prove they weren't murdered.

Someone else could have killed them using Sherilynn's gun. Or, a different gun. If they picked up the shells or casings or bullets, I guess forensics would have to be done on the bullet holes themselves, and I don't know how accurate that can get with skeletons.

Maybe Sherilynn held her gun to someone's head, or even fired a warning shot -- we know she has done this before, to the handyman -- and they got the gun away from her. Something like that.

I've thought about this too...completely possible. I wonder if after so many years - if her gun is found there - is there any chance to retrieve fingerprints or would that be completely hopeless?

 

[Dallen]

I'm not pushing the following scenario at all, but something like it would be consistent with no foul play. Little Jimmy comes running into the cabin and tells Papa that he and his dog Rufus found three dead people up on the butte in the north forty. Pa decides that he doesn't want the laws running all over his property asking a bunch of nosy questions so he loads them up and moves them to somewhere else. Extremely unlikely, but it wouldn't necessarily involve murder.

Thanks for posting this. I actually hadn't even thought of this scenario before. Interesting. Unlikely, but not impossible.

 

[Mitch1]

Providing examples of what you're asking for is unnecessary, because plenty is already known about hypothermia under non-freezing conditions. It's frightening because it creeps up on you before you realize the gravity of the situation. If you're lost, it's below 50 degrees, it's windy and/or wet, you're not dressed warmly and can't build a fire (even just from hypothermia-induced confusion about what to do), you are in danger. Period. It can happen, it has happened, and the conditions already discussed here could have made it possible for the Jamisons.

Off the top of my head, I can give you one example, the Brandon Swanson case which I have referenced before. I apologize it is not a case of "at least 2 people traveling together" (which wouldn't really matter, except that they'd be able to get some body heat from each other, for a while). S&R experts searched for Brandon's remains as best they could in the large area they mapped out from their calculations. They compiled data about the terrain, the amount of light that night, his probable walking speed as a 19 year old male, and how long he would have been able to walk before succumbing to hypothermia. This was on May 14th, 2008. The temperature at night was in the 40s, with no rain, if I recall correctly.

I think a lot was stacked against the Jamisons in the possible-hypothermia department, in addition to the weather, assuming for the moment that they did get lost: their thinness, their probable insufficient clothing, extra fatigue from the terrain and from inevitably having to carry the child after a while. If they hadn't eaten recently, that wouldn't help.

(Again, this is hypothetical. Again, I am now leaning towards murder. Again, this info is not meant to argue specifically that this IS how they died. It's just one possibility.)

Confusion is the first symptom of hypothermia, and if you're lost and panicky already, that obviously compounds the problem. After the shivering stage, the muscles stiffen, and that slows you down -- and that makes you colder. Drowsiness is another symptom, and once you sit down to rest, your temperature drops even more... et cetera.

Finally, here's some info from the US Forest Service, emphasis mine.

Hypothermia Myths

In the past hypothermia was referred to as "freezing to death" or simply "exposure". This is misleading because many cases of hypothermia occur during the summer at temperatures well above freezing.

What is Hypothermia?

It is lowering the inner core temperature of the body. If uncorrected, the victim can die within a few hours. During the summer, it most frequently strikes fatigued people who get wet and then are exposed to the wind. As air blows over the body, it removes heat very quickly, especially if the body is wet. As the body temperature decreases, even a few degrees, it is undergoing hypothermia. If this continues, cold will reach the brain, depriving the victim of judgement and reasoning power.​

http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/carson/learning/safety-ethics/?cid=stelprdb5296034

Saying providing examples is unnecessary-Doesn't make it unnecessary, I believe in evolutionary science because of the facts pertaining to physiology and biology but ALSO because they have provided countless examples as to it having happened!!!!
Belittling one UNLIKELY theory (murder suicide) in favor of another theory (exposure) that is just as UNLIKELY is just hard to "digest". So I thought maybe you had some examples of situations/instances that would "up the LIKELIHOOD" shall we say, they died from exposure. Owell, So much for that!
I would actually say of the 2, murder/suicide is more likely, not to be confused with what I think LIKELY happened-WPP, and I have 9,000 some "official" instances of families disappearing and going into the program.

Anyway hyperthermia is very real and yes it can happen in 50 degree weather, however the other fact is-we can't, as you have admitted, point to instances where it has happened to a pair or group of people, so it is largely in and of itself theoretical as in how you are applying it and highly UNLIKELY.

 

[Mapman]

Thinking about murder/suicide for a moment. If 3 bodies were found, and they each had gunshot wounds (which we don't know), and Sherilynn's gun is with the bodies... maybe LE would assume murder/suicide and call it no foul play... but that wouldn't prove they weren't murdered.

Someone else could have killed them using Sherilynn's gun. Or, a different gun. If they picked up the shells or casings or bullets, I guess forensics would have to be done on the bullet holes themselves, and I don't know how accurate that can get with skeletons.

Maybe Sherilynn held her gun to someone's head, or even fired a warning shot -- we know she has done this before, to the handyman -- and they got the gun away from her. Something like that.

I'm not sure, but it seems like I read that Sherilynn's pistol was .22 caliber. If this is the case, I'm pretty sure that most of the the bullets would have remained in the bodies regardless of where they were killed. It seems to me like the bullets should still be where the bodies decomposed regardless of where they were located when shot. I would expect most soft point pistol bullets to remain in the bodies so even if they were shot with some other pistol the bullets might still be where the bodies decomposed. If they can find the bullets and they are not too badly deformed or fragmented, they could probably determine the caliber and possibly find the rifling marks. They would have to find Sherilynn's pistol to match the rifling to the bullets unless they could possibly find some other bullets known to have been fired by her pistol which isn't likely.

On the other hand if they were shot with full metal jacket pistol bullets from a more powerful cartridge, these could have passed through them and no longer be near the bodies. JMO.