OK OK - Jamison Family; Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned, 8 Oct 2009 - #11

[deca]

Okay, I just looked up the temperatures for the dates Oct 8 - Oct 9 for the general area and there was a low of the mid 40s on the 9th and down to high 30s on the 10th of oct 2009!!

So, yes they could die from exposure. If there is a cool breeze and you are unprotected, you can die if it is in the 50s.

So my guess is they stopped to walk around, take a potty break, look at the view or whatever and got lost. It happens ALL THE TIME. In fact there is someone missing right now who wandered away from their hunting partner. Anyways, they end up lost and die of exposure before they find their way back. The adults could have gone to sleep and never woken up.

Rest in Peace.

 

[notsoconfused]

What kind of conditions does it take for someone to die of exposure? SE Oklahoma in mid-October is usually not below freezing, even overnight. Plus it's really weird for two adults to die of exposure in exactly the same spot. I could see the child giving up if her last remaining parent died, but with adults one is going to keep on going if something happens to the other one. Add that with the short distance from the truck and the fact that they would have reached a road or a house if they kept walking in one direction for very long and getting lost and dying of exposure just doesn't make a great deal of sense. I mean, I've never heard of anyone else around here dying from getting lost and people traipse the woods all the time hunting and what not.

(Just fyi I am from the area where they disappeared)

I am not buying the exposure theory at all. One person, yes. Three, no. Not with the remains found together and that close to their vehicle.

 

[nevereverever]

Three people could all die from exposure close together. If they got lost and tired, and laid down to sleep, they could have all died from the elements. I wonder if that's what LE thinks happened, because there were no obvious signs of injury on the remains. The earlier articles said no personal artifacts that would help ID the remains were found near them, which leads me to believe they did not find Mrs. Jamison's pistol with them, as presumably that would help to ID them. And that would seem to point away from murder-suicide. Unfortunately, if they did die of exposure, it's doubtful an ME would be able to determine a definitive cause of death. I wonder if the remains were found huddled together, which might hint at exposure as the cause. I don't know how likely that would be considering there likely would've been some animal activity.

 

[mtrooper]

Done. I gave the OSBI and the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner (Oklahoma) your information, your email, and your phone number. I also sent the good ol' sheriff your message sans the "I would think the Sherriff would have known this being that he had to approve the NAMUS submission I made" comment. (lol) May God bless you for helping others.

Thank you. Can you clarify if you gave them the name and number of the person listed as the regional administrator or the contact information for mtrooper? I am not the regional administrator...Oh how I wish, talk about my dream job. Either way, mission accomplished.

 

[mtrooper]

Three people could all die from exposure close together. If they got lost and tired, and laid down to sleep, they could have all died from the elements. I wonder if that's what LE thinks happened, because there were no obvious signs of injury on the remains. The earlier articles said no personal artifacts that would help ID the remains were found near them, which leads me to believe they did not find Mrs. Jamison's pistol with them, as presumably that would help to ID them. And that would seem to point away from murder-suicide. Unfortunately, if they did die of exposure, it's doubtful an ME would be able to determine a definitive cause of death. I wonder if the remains were found huddled together, which might hint at exposure as the cause. I don't know how likely that would be considering there likely would've been some animal activity.

Bobby was a smoker...There was a partial carton of smokes on the dash in the truck. I would think they could have started a fire for warmth, presumably if he still had lighter fluid.

 

[mtrooper]

So this is what I have come up with for GPS coords for the location of the bodies. Should be within a mile. It is section 28-T 7N-20E. It is the top portion of Grassy Lake Hollow. Latitude: 35.0509313 North Longitude: -95.1980223 West

 

[notsoconfused]

I believe I read somewhere that "something" was found with the remains. Not anything to identify the remains but something questionable. Anybody recall that?

 

[Solitaryone]

New article:

"The mother of a woman missing in northern Latimer County since late 2009 said she believes a religious cult is responsible for the disappearance and now presumed deaths of her daughter, son-in-law and granddaughter."

"Sitting in her apartment Tuesday afternoon in northwest Oklahoma City, Connie Kokotan discounted “wild” theories about the disappearance of the Jamisons — even those publicly discussed by law enforcement officials.

“Just like I've said from the very beginning, I think somebody killed them,” Kokotan said. “There's just no way that Bobby and Sherilyn would ever let anything happen to Madyson unless something had been done to them.”

Kokotan, 63, said that Sherilyn Jamison was on a “hit list” maintained by an unnamed religious cult operating in southeast Oklahoma."

Video and much more at link.

http://newsok.com/mother-believes-c...klahoma-familys-disappearance/article/3906475

 

[notsoconfused]

Without offending anybody, this is how I feel this investigation will end. No foul play, whether that is murder/suicide or element/weather related. Case closed. Now do I believe this theory, not entirely. After 4 years, I believe OSBI would love to close this investigation. Seriously, how many people actually cared about the Jamisons? How many true friends did the Jamisons have? How close was Sherrilyn and Bobby to their family? Yes, many people cared about the case, the mystery, the suspense, the lifestyle and the investigation aspect but the Jamisons had very few people that really truely cared about them. I think Oklahoma LE would be very happy to take the quick and easy route and say Case Solved. Yes, murder/suicide could be a possibility. Suicide pact as some say, I'm doubtful. I think if both Bobby and Sherrilyn were planning to do that they would have included the beloved family dog and I don't believe they would have went through such difficult terrain.

 

[Solitaryone]

I believe I read somewhere that "something" was found with the remains. Not anything to identify the remains but something questionable. Anybody recall that?

I do remember this. Did a quick search and found this:



"The remains were found by a local deer hunter around 5 p.m. Saturday, according to Latimer County Sheriff Jesse James.

The sheriff joined law enforcement officers who converged on the scene after the remains were found.

“We located some remains and some other items,” James said Monday. James declined to specify exactly what else had been found at the scene, but he did say he believes those items will help with the investigation."

http://www.mcalesternews.com/local/x1267062616/Human-skeletons-found

 

[los2188]

I have to chime in here on something. It has to do with the whole "they may have died from exposure" theory. I grew up and was raised in Alaska. I know a little something about cold, the elements, and just being out in the woods. You can die from exposure at most any temperature. But I just have a hard time believing that for...how ever many days they were out there, that they just decided to just sit by a pine tree or something to wait for someone to come and rescue them and then died from exposure. I mean more than likely, for them to die from exposure, it would take a couple to a few days for that to happen especially if they just gave up and sat down somewhere. I have no doubt that they would have attempted to find a way out if they were lost, and more than likely found a way out or at least found someone for help. The fact that they were found together makes it less likely as well. But I will admit that with all of that said, if they weren't in their right mind as so many have suggested, that can and usually does play a role in decision making. I guess time will tell. Lord only knows that when you're camping, drinking alcohol and or having an....herbal refreshment, can help vacillate doing stupid things like throwing an aerosol can in a fire...not that I know anything about that *cough*. I just don't buy the death by exposure theory.

 

[Solitaryone]

From same link:

http://newsok.com/mother-believes-c...klahoma-familys-disappearance/article/3906475

"While Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation officials have said that nothing was found at the scene to help identify the three bodies found over the weekend, Kokotan said an OSBI agent told her that a child's shoe was found nearby.

“I asked them what it looked like, what color is was,” she said. “Madyson's favorite color was pink. She always wore pink.”


And:

"A husband, wife and their daughter found the remains many believe belong to the Jamisons on Saturday while scouting the area for possible deer hunting.

"The area, part of the San Bois Mountains, is rugged and densely wooded in some areas. The couple and their daughter had been in the area more than four years ago looking for land to purchase."

Video and more at link.

 

[moonstone]

New article:

"The mother of a woman missing in northern Latimer County since late 2009 said she believes a religious cult is responsible for the disappearance and now presumed deaths of her daughter, son-in-law and granddaughter."

"Sitting in her apartment Tuesday afternoon in northwest Oklahoma City, Connie Kokotan discounted “wild” theories about the disappearance of the Jamisons — even those publicly discussed by law enforcement officials.

“Just like I've said from the very beginning, I think somebody killed them,” Kokotan said. “There's just no way that Bobby and Sherilyn would ever let anything happen to Madyson unless something had been done to them.”

Kokotan, 63, said that Sherilyn Jamison was on a “hit list” maintained by an unnamed religious cult operating in southeast Oklahoma."

Video and much more at link.

http://newsok.com/mother-believes-c...klahoma-familys-disappearance/article/3906475

: ( Watching the interview, her mother, while speaking calm and collected, still seems so delicately vulnerable. I guess it's difficult to put into words how heartwrenching it is to watch.

How sad also that it says a couple and their daughter found the remains.

 

[Pensfan]

Thank you. Can you clarify if you gave them the name and number of the person listed as the regional administrator or the contact information for mtrooper? I am not the regional administrator...Oh how I wish, talk about my dream job. Either way, mission accomplished.

“The DNA has already been collected from the Jamison family and it has already been submitted. The tests are complete for Madyson and Sherrilynn. They have been submitted for Bob, but are not complete. The Medical Examiner needs to get in touch with NAMUS and get the bones to Texas, so they can get the DNA from the remains. Its even free.”

For the contact name, I gave Michael Nance's name, the listed phone number, and Michael Nance's email.

 

[moonstone]

I have to chime in here on something. It has to do with the whole "they may have died from exposure" theory. I grew up and was raised in Alaska. I know a little something about cold, the elements, and just being out in the woods. You can die from exposure at most any temperature. But I just have a hard time believing that for...how ever many days they were out there, that they just decided to just sit by a pine tree or something to wait for someone to come and rescue them and then died from exposure. I mean more than likely, for them to die from exposure, it would take a couple to a few days for that to happen especially if they just gave up and sat down somewhere. I have no doubt that they would have attempted to find a way out if they were lost, and more than likely found a way out or at least found someone for help. The fact that they were found together makes it less likely as well. But I will admit that with all of that said, if they weren't in their right mind as so many have suggested, that can and usually does play a role in decision making. I guess time will tell. Lord only knows that when you're camping, drinking alcohol and or having an....herbal refreshment, can help vacillate doing stupid things like throwing an aerosol can in a fire...not that I know anything about that *cough*. I just don't buy the death by exposure theory.

I agree on so many levels. It takes time to get 2-3 miles and since it's not as if they were on a trail, IMO they'd likely be 'meandering'. And since it was at the bottom of the other side of the mountain, well, many people I know I would think, 'hmm... I'm going to also have to climb back up this thing,' and that is not taking into account having a 6yr old in tow. It seems like they would have plenty of time and distance to get their fill of a 'walk', and realize this was turning into a lengthy, downhill-uphill hike, without any essentials and the dog in the car. It makes me think that in 1/2 that time and distance, lots of things could have happened to make them want to go back (For example: let's go back for the dog, or a snack. Most 6 year olds might be tired by then, etc).

I am not set on anything, but these are just some barriers I have about that particular occurance. These are all just my opinion.

I do realize it's possible they could have been in an altered state (or something out of the ordinary took place) so I do respect the thoughts of those who do believe exposure occured and I am not ruling it out IMO's.

 

[Pensfan]

I have to chime in here on something. It has to do with the whole "they may have died from exposure" theory. I grew up and was raised in Alaska. I know a little something about cold, the elements, and just being out in the woods. You can die from exposure at most any temperature. But I just have a hard time believing that for...how ever many days they were out there, that they just decided to just sit by a pine tree or something to wait for someone to come and rescue them and then died from exposure. I mean more than likely, for them to die from exposure, it would take a couple to a few days for that to happen especially if they just gave up and sat down somewhere. I have no doubt that they would have attempted to find a way out if they were lost, and more than likely found a way out or at least found someone for help. The fact that they were found together makes it less likely as well. But I will admit that with all of that said, if they weren't in their right mind as so many have suggested, that can and usually does play a role in decision making. I guess time will tell. Lord only knows that when you're camping, drinking alcohol and or having an....herbal refreshment, can help vacillate doing stupid things like throwing an aerosol can in a fire...not that I know anything about that *cough*. I just don't buy the death by exposure theory.

Thanks for your input. I am willing to bet that Bobby and/or Sherilynn smoked. They would be carrying a lighter and could have made a signal fire if they wanted to be found.

 

[The Cheese]

Law enforcement saying no foul play rules out murder including murder-suicide.

Too coincidental for all 3 to die of natural causes at the same time, so that's ruled out.

Absence of clothing rules out accident, because that would be too highly coincidental.

Absence of clothing indicates hypothermia, and hypothermia is no foul play. No other reason for them all to have no clothes since there's no foul play.

Hypothermia makes people do strange things. They become very disorientated, can hallucinate, become paranoid. Death can occur in as little as half an hour.

There was a young girl, about 20, walking home from a concert. Can't remember her name. She walked down a road, by the side of the road. Snow was piled up on the sides of the road, and she was on the other side. Loads of traffic on the road, people coming home from a big concert. All she had to do was climb that snow drift and wave her arms. Instead, she started taking off her clothes, then collapsed, and sadly, died. All within a very short period time.

They just don't do the expected - they don't build fires - they can't even light a lighter. They don't do the simplest things to try to save themselves. They do the unexpected - like taking off their clothes, even though they're getting colder and colder.

I'm going with hypothermia, but I'll keep checking the news for more information from law enforcement.

Very sad case, for a whole family to be gone.

JMO.

 

[Pensfan]

Law enforcement saying no foul play rules out murder including murder-suicide.

Too coincidental for all 3 to die of natural causes at the same time, so that's ruled out.

Absence of clothing rules out accident, because that would be too highly coincidental.

Absence of clothing indicates hypothermia, and hypothermia is no foul play. No other reason for them all to have no clothes since there's no foul play.

Hypothermia makes people do strange things. They become very disorientated, can hallucinate, become paranoid. Death can occur in as little as half an hour.

There was a young girl, about 20, walking home from a concert. Can't remember her name. She walked down a road, by the side of the road. Snow was piled up on the sides of the road, and she was on the other side. Loads of traffic on the road, people coming home from a big concert. All she had to do was climb that snow drift and wave her arms. Instead, she started taking off her clothes, then collapsed, and sadly, died. All within a very short period time.

They just don't do the expected - they don't build fires - they can't even light a lighter. They don't do the simplest things to try to save themselves. They do the unexpected - like taking off their clothes, even though they're getting colder and colder.

I'm going with hypothermia, but I'll keep checking the news for more information from law enforcement.

Very sad case, for a whole family to be gone.

JMO.

BBM
Here are articles involving murder-suicide cases where LE said "no foul play was involved". LE apparently uses this term in murder-suicide cases to mean there is no evidence that a third party was involved.
http://www.ksla.com/story/10025432/suspected-murder-suicide-in-orange-tx

http://www.examiner.com/article/murder-suicide-essex

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/jehovahs-witnesses-couple-died-murder-suicide

http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/02/09/national/national_30026382.php

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/22597340/plano-pd-investigating-potential-murder-suicide

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_west_valley/glendale/pd-3-found-dead-inside-glendale-home

 

[moonstone]

Law enforcement saying no foul play rules out murder including murder-suicide.

Too coincidental for all 3 to die of natural causes at the same time, so that's ruled out.

Absence of clothing rules out accident, because that would be too highly coincidental.

Absence of clothing indicates hypothermia, and hypothermia is no foul play. No other reason for them all to have no clothes since there's no foul play.

Hypothermia makes people do strange things. They become very disorientated, can hallucinate, become paranoid. Death can occur in as little as half an hour.

There was a young girl, about 20, walking home from a concert. Can't remember her name. She walked down a road, by the side of the road. Snow was piled up on the sides of the road, and she was on the other side. Loads of traffic on the road, people coming home from a big concert. All she had to do was climb that snow drift and wave her arms. Instead, she started taking off her clothes, then collapsed, and sadly, died. All within a very short period time.

They just don't do the expected - they don't build fires - they can't even light a lighter. They don't do the simplest things to try to save themselves. They do the unexpected - like taking off their clothes, even though they're getting colder and colder.

I'm going with hypothermia, but I'll keep checking the news for more information from law enforcement.

Very sad case, for a whole family to be gone.

JMO.

Abscence of clothing? I admit, I missed that detail. I was under the impression there were 'scraps of clothing' found with the remains? The Cheese, I appreciate your above post and I am not debating you or even really directing this post at you, I am just confused because that is the first I've heard of that. Perhaps I am misinterpreting what you said...

article from earlier today: Mother of missing man speaks after skeletal remains discovered
OSBI working to determine if clothes, bones are missing family

“There’s just partial skeletal remains and some clothing, things like shoes,” said Gary Perkinson, assistant special agent in charge of the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation.

Read more: http://www.koco.com/news/oklahomane...23040912/-/3ne107z/-/index.html#ixzz2lAGKebjY

 

[Pensfan]

Sherilyn took her 11 page "hate" letter to Bobby on that road trip AND the pistol registered to her was not found with their belongings.