OK OK - Lauria Bible, 16, & Ashley Freeman, 16, Welch, 30 December 1999 *ARREST*

[wfgodot]

Bolded by me- I agree with this as well. We want support from OK LE- not resistance. While frustrations with unsolved MP's can and do run high in EVERY state, there is no reason to point fingers and lay blame. Like many state and local LEA's, OK has it's fair share of crime, budget cuts, and overwhelming manpower needs. We just want to help in anyway possible, while staying out of their way.
They have a cold case unit that has absorbed this case- perhaps they would be good to contact as well?

Oriah

Agree totally. Yes on the cold case unit; they've evidently closed a couple old ones already, and good for them. The only problem I could see arising would be in regards searches in Craig County - LE there, of course, is the subject of much speculation regarding not only the investigation but also the genesis of the case, and is apt to be a bit touchy, understatement.

 

[Oriah]

No idea on my part. Though I live here I'm not from here, so my associations are somewhat restricted. I did create a Topix thread / Miami OK for the girls, and I'm hoping that will produce something; Welch does have one already but there's only one entry. We'll see. I'm thinking about posting on CraigsList, seeking input.

Much of the land you're looking over is American Indian land, complicating matters when trying to get permission to search same - you've perhaps had that issue before; between the State of Oklahoma and a sovereign Native American nation (or nations), it's pretty confusing. Plus, in and around Picher (and Cardin, in KS, to the immediate north), the land is owned by the federal government because of the buyouts.

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes again.
Oh- did I happen to mention....YES?!

Fortunately, we do know some tribal leaders who can help in that department...and my understanding is that much of the federally owned land has been sporadically grandfathered back and/or sold. Or maybe I misunderstood. Perhaps someone could do some title searching to find which tracks are public vs private vs federal?

 

[wfgodot]

[/B]

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes again.
Oh- did I happen to mention....YES?!

Fortunately, we do know some tribal leaders who can help in that department...and my understanding is that much of the federally owned land has been sporadically grandfathered back and/or sold. Or maybe I misunderstood. Perhaps someone could do some title searching to find which tracks are public vs private vs federal?

Yes, I believe you're right about the land ownership issue, exactly - for example, I think perhaps that the Quapaw tribe may now own a portion of the land where Picher sits. As for title searching, I am one dense biscuit when it comes to that sort of thing, lol. Plus, I'm in the process of job-applying (thus to ward off homelessness) and my months here are numbered, but I'll do what I can!

 

[Oriah]

Agree totally. Yes on the cold case unit; they've evidently closed a couple old ones already, and good for them. The only problem I could see arising would be in regards searches in Craig County - LE there, of course, is the subject of much speculation regarding not only the investigation but also the genesis of the case, and is apt to be a bit touchy, understatement.

True. Then again, in the spirit of cooperation (and without media putting them in the spotlight) perhaps they would like to clear their name of any possible misconceptions of involvement.
I know I would if I were in their shoes.

Oriah

 

[Oriah]

Yes, I believe you're right about the land ownership issue, exactly - for example, I think perhaps that the Quapaw tribe may now own a portion of the land where Picher sits. As for title searching, I am one dense biscuit when it comes to that sort of thing, lol. Plus, I'm in the process of job-applying (thus to ward off homelessness) and my months here are numbered, but I'll do what I can!

Yes- one of the issues we encountered with the Aja Johnson case was how to actually GET to land that was surrounded by unwilling owners- both private and federal alike. So in other words- while we may have been granted permission by one tribe (i.e.- Cherokees) we were denied access by surrounding federal lands. Frustrating, unless you have helicopter and air traffic control support. But we shall continue to investigate ways and means.

Oriah
p.s.- wfgodot- by all means do not become homeless. That would require quite a lot of internet cafe and wifi access! By all means- keep sending out the job apps... I will go back to mapping coordinates.

 

[wfgodot]

True. Then again, in the spirit of cooperation (and without media putting them in the spotlight) perhaps they would like to clear their name of any possible misconceptions of involvement.
I know I would if I were in their shoes.

Oriah

I'd be wary. The difference between appearance and reality around here can be very hard to distinguish at times. I myself have held back in asking questions, etc., simply because I have, for the time-being, to live around here, and, well, no need to tempt fate. It's really a difficult call. Of course, that's exactly why so much stays unsolved in this state.

 

[wfgodot]

Yes- one of the issues we encountered with the Aja Johnson case was how to actually GET to land that was surrounded by unwilling owners- both private and federal alike. So in other words- while we may have been granted permission by one tribe (i.e.- Cherokees) we were denied access by surrounding federal lands. Frustrating, unless you have helicopter and air traffic control support. But we shall continue to investigate ways and means.

Oriah
p.s.- wfgodot- by all means do not become homeless. That would require quite a lot of internet cafe and wifi access! By all means- keep sending out the job apps... I will go back to mapping coordinates.

Exactly again. And oh! those Cherokees. (I'm part Cherokee, so I know what I'm saying.) Many other tribes feel we're a bit high and mighty, and rivalry exists, internecine quarrels between this tribe and that, etc. etc. Politics. Another reason why Oklahoma's waters are murky waters indeed.

 

[Oriah]

I'd be wary. The difference between appearance and reality around here can be very hard to distinguish at times. I myself have held back in asking questions, etc., simply because I have, for the time-being, to live around here, and, well, no need to tempt fate. It's really a difficult call. Of course, that's exactly why so much stays unsolved in this state.

It is a difficult call, which is why I would really like as much local input as possible. No need to identify yourself in any way whatsoever- just thoughts and input appreciated.

And again....the proverbial rug can only hold so much dust before your mom notices you've been sweeping it under there for the past year while doing your chores.

Thanks for your input wfgodot- it is extremely valuable.

 

[Oriah]

Exactly again. And oh! those Cherokees. (I'm part Cherokee, so I know what I'm saying.) Many other tribes feel we're a bit high and mighty, and rivalry exists, internecine quarrels between this tribe and that, etc. etc. Politics. Another reason why Oklahoma's waters are murky waters indeed.

Another big yes, yes, and yes!

But with soft steps, or perhaps on a turtles back (if you know the expression) we may have luck. Discouragement be gone! We'll take politics up after giving Ashley and Lauria our best shot.

 

[wfgodot]

Here's probably the best short glimpse of the case to be made - pro and con - regarding local-boy-turned-serial-killer Jeremy Brian Jones's claim to have done the crime. (And for those seeking information either in print, or on-line, concerning Freeman-Bible, the Joplin [MO] Globe's coverage of the case, both at the outset and at its tenth anniversary, is without equal.)

Answers still elusive in decade-long mystery
Freeman-Bible murder case still troubles Oklahoma families

(from the Joplin Globe, 26 December 2009, by Jeff Lehr)

---
Convinced Craig County Sheriff Jimmie Sooter has not spoken with Jeremy Jones since he and an agent from the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation interviewed Jones in an Alabama jail in January 2005. Sooter and the agent came away from those 17 hours of talking with Jones convinced that he played a role in the Freeman-Bible murders. “My personal opinion remains that (Jones) did the crime,” Sooter told the Globe this month. Jones claimed to have killed the Freemans over a debt. Danny Freeman owed a friend of Jones some money and had not paid up, according to Jones. He told the Oklahoma investigators that he went there to kill the Freemans that night as a favor to his friend, although the friend did not know he intended to do that.

Jones claimed he shot the Freemans, set their home on fire, and then drove the girls to Kansas and killed them. Sooter has said that Jones showed a knowledge of the interior of the Freemans’ home and accurately described various features of their kitchen. He also knew what type of accelerant was used to set the fire, a detail investigators never released to the media. Less impressively, Jones knew what type of shotgun was involved and the fact that Kathy Freeman was discovered face down in the burnt remains of their waterbed, details that had made their way into media coverage before his confession.

---
There was initial skepticism regarding the confession because of public records that showed Jones was arrested at 4 a.m. the day of the slayings on the outskirts of Miami, Okla., and remained in jail until after 10 a.m. The fire at the Freemans’ home was not reported to authorities until shortly before 6 a.m. But investigators believe Jones still could have committed the murders the way he said he did before his arrest. Under this particular theory of the crime, the fire may have smoldered several hours before finally flaring up and attracting notice.

There are other problems with the confession. A former girlfriend of Jones claimed she was with him the day in question at a motel near the point of his arrest, and that he had no opportunity or means to have committed the murders. She claimed his truck was not even operable at the time. [Dwayne Vancil, Danny Freeman's brother] believes investigators have used Jones as an excuse not to pursue other leads. “We’re pretty confident Jeremy Jones did not go out there by himself and kill Danny and Kathy, and take the girls,” he said.

He believes Jones knew others who were involved and may even have been with them at some point during the commission of the crime. Vancil believes the girls were held for a couple of days at a home in the area of Twin Bridges State Park before being killed and their bodies hidden. The family received information to that effect shortly after the crime, he said. While family members and the sheriff see the mystery from different perspectives, all involved believe it’s important that the case be kept alive in the media.
---

and much more, at
http://www.joplinglobe.com/local/x546223768/Answers-still-elusive-in-decade-long-mystery

 

[wfgodot]

Convicted killer Tommy Lynn Sells proved to be, basically, Henry Lee Lucas 2.0, at least in regards to telling the truth about the Freeman-Bible crimes. An LE timeline of the days in question also gives the lie to his meager attempt to claim more victims - although he STILL got a free trip out of his "confession":
---

From Through the Window by Diane Fanning, pages 218-19:

It seemed for a time that Max McCoy, a reporter from The Joplin Globe, was the only one convinced of Sells' guilt in the 1999 Freeman murders, the arson, and the abduction of Ashley Freeman and Lauria Bible. Sells had told McCoy that he knew where the bodies were. To another reporter, he'd stated that he was uncertain whether he was still in Oklahoma or across the state line in Texas when he disposed of them. [...] He refused to speak of further specifics.

At another time, he said, "About that murder up north, I'm not trying to avoid your questions about nothing. I remember something bad happened. I think I remember that lady's face. I remember small parts of what happened. But then again there's been so many and I get mixed up with another murder. It's not that I don't want to talk about this murder or any other murder - things get real crazy inside my head."

Then on June 17, 2002, Tommy Lynn Sells told the Texas Rangers, the Craig County Sheriff, and an officer from the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation that he could take them to the bodies. They returned to the prison the following Sunday with a bench warrant.

A well-guarded Sells took a field trip to locate the bodies. They headed northeast, to Marshall, Texas, a town near the Louisiana border (...) East of town, Sells identified the spot. Bones were found. But they were all cattle bones, seven to eight years old.

There are three possibilities, then: either Sell is not involved in the Freeman crime; or his memory is faulty; or he intentionally led officers to the wrong spot. A look at the road map indicates that en route from Welch, Oklahoma, to Del Rio, Texas, a side trip to Marshall would be a lengthy and illogical detour.
---

http://books.google.com/books?id=PE...page&q=tommy lynn sells freeman bible&f=false

 

[Oriah]

Convicted killer Tommy Lynn Sells proved to be, basically, Henry Lee Lucas 2.0, at least in regards to telling the truth about the Freeman-Bible crimes. An LE timeline of the days in question also gives the lie to his meager attempt to claim more victims - although he STILL got a free trip out of his "confession":
---

From Through the Window by Diane Fanning, pages 218-19:

It seemed for a time that Max McCoy, a reporter from The Joplin Globe, was the only one convinced of Sells' guilt in the 1999 Freeman murders, the arson, and the abduction of Ashley Freeman and Lauria Bible. Sells had told McCoy that he knew where the bodies were. To another reporter, he'd stated that he was uncertain whether he was still in Oklahoma or across the state line in Texas when he disposed of them. [...] He refused to speak of further specifics.

At another time, he said, "About that murder up north, I'm not trying to avoid your questions about nothing. I remember something bad happened. I think I remember that lady's face. I remember small parts of what happened. But then again there's been so many and I get mixed up with another murder. It's not that I don't want to talk about this murder or any other murder - things get real crazy inside my head."

Then on June 17, 2002, Tommy Lynn Sells told the Texas Rangers, the Craig County Sheriff, and an officer from the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation that he could take them to the bodies. They returned to the prison the following Sunday with a bench warrant.

A well-guarded Sells took a field trip to locate the bodies. They headed northeast, to Marshall, Texas, a town near the Louisiana border (...) East of town, Sells identified the spot. Bones were found. But they were all cattle bones, seven to eight years old.

There are three possibilities, then: either Sell is not involved in the Freeman crime; or his memory is faulty; or he intentionally led officers to the wrong spot. A look at the road map indicates that en route from Welch, Oklahoma, to Del Rio, Texas, a side trip to Marshall would be a lengthy and illogical detour.
---

http://books.google.com/books?id=PE...page&q=tommy lynn sells freeman bible&f=false

Nope, I don't think it was this guy, either. But I wouldn't put it past a few folks to influence him a bit, either.

On another note- anyone willing to dig up some info on all of the vehicles involved in this case; makes, models, titles or loans... including the one Ashley and her boyfriend allegedly argued over?

Also, we need incident reports and info re: David Haynes, as well as DeAnna Dorsey.

TIA...
Oriah

 

[suzyq211]

Wow, this article has some astounding info. Whatever happened to securing a crime scene? How could they "overlook" another body?

Lorene discovered Lauria's purse propped inside the trailer, but there was no other evidence of the girls at the scene.
Jay Bible, Lauria's father, discovered Danny's body in the bedroom of the mobile home during the following morning. The Bibles returned to the trailer in an attempt to gather more evidence as to their daughter's whereabouts.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/mpccn/arfreeman.html

 

[wfgodot]

Wow, this article has some astounding info. Whatever happened to securing a crime scene? How could they "overlook" another body?

Lorene discovered Lauria's purse propped inside the trailer, but there was no other evidence of the girls at the scene.
Jay Bible, Lauria's father, discovered Danny's body in the bedroom of the mobile home during the following morning. The Bibles returned to the trailer in an attempt to gather more evidence as to their daughter's whereabouts.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/mpccn/arfreeman.html

Yep, excellent point, suzyq211; and this fact is also a keystone of the "LE was involved" theory, the argument being that the body was purposefully hidden under rubble and was then to have been removed and disposed of later, but somebody fouled up and JB discovered the body at the unsecured crime scene, in effect ending the possibility of a "Blame Danny" scenario which would have allowed the real culprits to avoid arrest.

Those who espouse this (rather shaky, imo) theory point out that Danny Freeman's name had already been floated as the perpetrator immediately after discovery of the crime (his absence indicating that he had absconded from the scene). If his body had never have been recovered, this would allow all blame to be placed on him for the murder, the arson, and the kidnappings - basically because dead men tell no tales.

The flaw to this part of the theory? DF could have been taken from the scene and disposed of before the fire, thus negating the need to take his body from a fiery crime scene after the fact. His body needed not have ever been found, and the blame could easily have been placed on him. (The counter-argument? Individuals who can't even secure a crime scene probably would also be poor at pre-planning a crime of this magnitude.)

 

[Oriah]

Yep, excellent point, suzyq211; and this fact is also a keystone of the "LE was involved" theory, the argument being that the body was purposefully hidden under rubble and was then to have been removed and disposed of later, but somebody fouled up and JB discovered the body at the unsecured crime scene, in effect ending the possibility of a "Blame Danny" scenario which would have allowed the real culprits to avoid arrest.

Those who espouse this (rather shaky, imo) theory point out that Danny Freeman's name had already been floated as the perpetrator immediately after discovery of the crime (his absence indicating that he had absconded from the scene). If his body had never have been recovered, this would allow all blame to be placed on him for the murder, the arson, and the kidnappings - basically because dead men tell no tales.

The flaw to this part of the theory? DF could have been taken from the scene and disposed of before the fire, thus negating the need to take his body from a fiery crime scene after the fact. His body needed not have ever been found, and the blame could easily have been placed on him. (The counter-argument? Individuals who can't even secure a crime scene probably would also be poor at pre-planning a crime of this magnitude.)

I tend to agree.
Another question for sleuthers out there... The site of the Freeman trailer has been razed (and rerazed) to my knowledge. Can anyone find a deed of ownership to that parcel? Any realtors willing to get me a quick succession of ownership that dates back to, say, the early 1980's? Thanks....

Oriah
ETA: also, any other tracks or parcels owned by any of the same owners of that parcel, that date back to the early 80's to present.

 

[Oriah]

And another question- anyone have a quick link to the final ME report with diagrams on the Freemans, as well as Shane?

Thanks again!
Oriah

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Hello all,
Bumping again- we need more sleuthers!
Today I'm interested in the triangle between Welch, Miami, and Bluejacket; State hwy 10/59 to 2, then South to just before you hit 44. SE of Welch. There appear to be quite a few logging roads or ATV trails in the area. Can anyone confirm this? Is that active timber co land? Thanks.
JTSYS

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Hey ya'll, I know we have some Oklahomians out there. Lots of Texans too, and some Kansas folk! Question: knowing what we know of this case, and wanting to be centralized and unobtrusive, which state park would you pick for a mobile command center for a search effort? Beavers Bend? Twin Bridges....or Little River?
Thoughts appreciated.

JTSYS

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Another thought that perhaps someone else within the OSBI could take on....adding Ashley Freeman and Lauria Bible's case to their 'Unsolved" page?
Thanks.
JTSYS

 

[wfgodot]

Hey ya'll, I know we have some Oklahomians out there. Lots of Texans too, and some Kansas folk! Question: knowing what we know of this case, and wanting to be centralized and unobtrusive, which state park would you pick for a mobile command center for a search effort? Beavers Bend? Twin Bridges....or Little River?
Thoughts appreciated.

JTSYS

For a concerted effort on Freeman-Bible, Twin Bridges, southeast of Miami, is easily the best, at least in terms of proximity to events of 29-30 December 1999. In addition, members of the Freeman family believe that the girls "were held for a couple of days at a home in the area of Twin Bridges State Park before being killed and their bodies hidden." (see link at #30, above) Twin Bridges would not be obtrusive - it's about 30 miles away from the rural Welch region of the murders and kidnappings.