OK OK - Rev. Carol Daniels, 61, Anadarko, 23 Aug 2009

[Foxfire]

Fox, I will come to the IK threads to debate your theory on the movie issue etc. I will even bring your post over.

Thank You, SeriouslySearching.
I was attempting to find the words in an attempt to share why I had posted so many IK related posts on one that is dedicated to the innocent victim 'Pastor Carol Daniels'...
There are many reasons, but primarily to insure that she gets a competent investigation by OSBI/FBI BAU2 utilizing all available resources insuring justice for her and her family.

Thanx for the rescue, SS...

 

[SeriouslySearching]

<respectfully snipped for focus>
Yes, SeriouslySearching, IK was a stealth predator analogous to a chameleon lizard, and would have gone unnoticed/blending in, as he had done so many times before..actual number unknown..

IK was arrested March 13, 2012, in Lufkin, Texas, three days after the OSBI announced that they may have a new suspect in Pastor Carol Daniels' murder March 10, 2012. Was this due to an FBI CODIS or IAFIS hit linking the two crimes through the resources of these FBI BAU VICAP databases? I find the timing of these two incidents very curious..

Did the FBI/APD find fingerprints or touch DNA in the AK Samantha Koenig investigation? Did the OSBI/APD find fingerprints or DNA in Pastor Carol Daniels murder investigation?
Was there an FBI CODIS DNA/Fingerprint match that tied the two crimes, yet
no identity entered into the FBI's databases?
The FBI nor the OSBI releases this info publicly....

The FBI was tracking IK's movements while using Samantha Koenig's ATM cards and likely the ping from her cell phone when he contacted her father for the ransom demand. Yet, it is unlikely that they knew the person responsible; IK's identity until arrested, imo..

The FBI and LE made it clear they did not know IK's identity in relation to Koenig's murder until the arrest.

It is curious what sent to them to Chicago. I am not convinced they got any fingerprints or DNA in or around the crime scene at the church leading to a suspect. They may have received tips from other sources, but I found it interesting they would ask her mother about the person in Chicago. It means they know he was either in the area or he possibly had access to Pastor Daniels in some way (internet, phone, etc.). Some random guy would not have warranted alerting her family.

ETA: See my previous post for the link you requested.

 

[Foxfire]

The FBI and LE made it clear they did not know IK's identity in relation to Koenig's murder until the arrest.

It is curious what sent to them to Chicago. I am not convinced they got any fingerprints or DNA in or around the crime scene at the church leading to a suspect. They may have received tips from other sources, but I found it interesting they would ask her mother about the person in Chicago. It means they know he was either in the area or he possibly had access to Pastor Daniels in some way (internet, phone, etc.). Some random guy would not have warranted alerting her family.

ETA: See my previous post for the link you requested.

SeriouslSearching, I doubt the Chicago poi/s panned out. That's been a while back..
Morgan Harrington's murderer; a serial rapist's dna is in the database and has been connected to two victims. Yet his identity is still unknown. Until he is arrested/convicted or a family member is required to submit dna in a state with a familial dna law, his identity will remain unknown. I'm wondering if a similar scenario is playing out in the SK & PCD investigations..

Has there been a sketch released in Pastor Carol Daniels' case based on Mr R's observations? If not, wonder why not?

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Oh, this is just Israel Keyes again? And it is unsolved because of an antiquated investigative strategy of silence? Thanks Foxfire!

Montjoy, unfortunately in Oklahoma we fight an uphill battle on almost every case. :waiting:

 

[OEJ]

Dear SeriouslySearching,

A pleasure to meet you. The average church in the United States is about 50 people. What I find interesting about the church in Anadarko was that her denomination did not rent out space to other churches as is often done. The church I belong to has been offered the use of church space by other denominations and this is also not uncommon, though there is usually a small rental fee to cover utilities. I believe, as reported, that she drove there to see two elderly members who had been integral to the church during it's better days. I believe she was saving them the long drive to Oklahoma City and I believe they showed up as often as possible, they showed up the day she was killed.

The problems I have with Mr. Keyes being the killer are the same I have with it being anyone from outside of Anadarko. It is a very small town with a history of racial divisions and a distrust of the police and outsiders. In order to know that the church was sometimes empty one would have to have watched it over many Sundays. It would be a touch place to stake out without being seen and noticed.

Let us assume for a moment that Mr. Keyes came to Anadarko to work on rebuilding after the tornado. He would have been noticed by someone I believe. As for the fire, I believe it was unrelated. There was also a heavy metal band playing in town that weekend who wore "Satanist" shirts and they were interviewed and found to not have been involved.

In the end the problem with the case remains the same. Evidence. IK never, that we know of, claimed to have killed Pastor Daniels so we are left with what we do have and that is very little. The church is gone and other than DNA evidence that was destroyed by the killer, we are left with a door that was removed by the police.

If Keyes killed Pastor Daniels, it can never be proven. I prefer to believe that the killer can be caught. What is needed is an admission, finding evidence (such as any items the killer may have taken from the scene) or a witness that we are still unaware of. At this point in time, I think the detective in charge of the case (and there is one according to the papers) would be best of eliminating people who we know were close to the scene and working outwards. That is merely my opinion.

To the moderators, I have now read the terms and conditions and will try my best to stay within them.

In my opinion, the man who did this is the same race as Ms. Daniels, somehere in his 20s, who many people in the neighborhood knew and liked. He may be a son, nephew, foster kid, etc. of a more or less regular parishioner who he accompanied to the church every so often. Ms Daniels probably knew him. I think he moved away some time after the murder or went into the military.

 

[Foxfire]

Imo, investigators were too quick to write off Mr R's observations the day of Pastor Carol Daniels' murder.

Why it is very important for a forensic sketch to be completed of the suspect seen leaving PCD's Church by a forensic sketch artist from eyewitness; Mr R, imo..

Highly trained and talented Forensic sketch artists can perform virtual miracles when pulling information from eyewitnesses of suspects/poi's in crimes or other traumatic events. Even years or decades later...

At a CUE National missing/murdered person conference in 2010, I had the honor of meeting a very talented Canadian Forensic Artist; Diana Trepkov, and Donna Green; a mother whose newborn baby; Raymond Lamar Green, was abducted over 3 decades ago. Diana was able to pull some very important info which was locked up in Donna Green's memory. It is an amazing story and illustrates the abilities of a well trained and talented forensic sketch artist;

Woman hopes to find son snatched as newborn - CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/05/10/grace.coldlcase.green/

Read More beginning @ Comment #13 - Baby Lamar Green missing 35 years Atl, GA - WS
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56370&highlight=baby+lamar+green
_________________________________

FBI Forensic Facial Imaging - Available @ no charge to State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies upon request...
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/forensic-science-support/forensic-art

 

[Foxfire]

Montjoy, unfortunately in Oklahoma we fight an uphill battle on almost every case. :waiting:

'If mountains were not meant to be climbed, they would all be flat'..:twocents:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVcjnNry4do&hd=1"]Amazing Grace, by Wintley Phipps.flv - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Foxfire]

The total number of days between Sunday, August 23rd, 2009; when Pastor Carol Daniels was viciously murdered and today; Monday, April 21st, 2014 is 1,702 days.

When wfgodot posted the above comment, there were 7 pages of comments on PCD's WS thread after 52 months. Snoopster made the post above concerning serial killer Israel Keyes, being a possible suspect in PCD's murder 261 days ago. In the past 4 months since Snoopster's post, there is now 12 pages and renewed interest resulting in awareness being created in her case; 26,550+ total views.. * 800+ views in the past 2 days.. Awareness is the key in missing/murdered person's investigation.
'Silence is the predator's most lethal weapon'..

Imo, there are too many Parallels for IK not to be considered a prime suspect/poi in Pastor Carol Daniels heinous murder. Imo, he had the very rare psychopathic traits, motive, means, and opportunity.. IK, was analogous to a chameleon and possessed no human emotions, nor a victim profile..
IK was the angel of death; the Devil's Deciple, imo..

RE: Arsons; IK admitted to between 20 & 30 arsons as a teen.. IK, was 34 years old when apprehended..and been active for over two decades with many unknown victims..<actual number unknown>..


IK chased storms and other natural disasters to bid construction jobs - (Anardarko Tornadoes 05/2009)
IK detested Christianity and what it represented.. IK described fantasy of killing or taking a victim to a Church and leaving them or setting it ablaze.

* IK studied Ted Bundy and emulated him and other serial killers prior. Bundy was a ritual killer...
* IK Tatoos; upside down cross & pentagram
* Suspicious Bar fire adjacent to Anardarko Daily News 08-22-2009(all nighter); the day prior to PCD's murder. (less than competent investigation by arson investigator, imo)
* 38 cal firearm (IK preferred 38 cal revolver)found by ADN owners in the grass next to the gazebo in the park across the street at another bar(firearm assumed by APD to be from the bar fight the night before the fire).
* IK was very intelligent, calculating, deflective, creative, manipulative, and meticulous.
* IK was a necrophiliac which indicates extreme escalation, imo.
* IK was alcoholic, frequented bars, and drank daily in an attempt to wash away his demons, imo.
* IK was very proficient with his knife..
* Mr R described person wearing hoodie & wearing a mask - IK wore masks and hoodies (caught on bank sec cam in another state during bank robbery)

Oh, this is just Israel Keyes again? And it is unsolved because of an antiquated investigative strategy of silence? Thanks Foxfire!

No Montjoy, Pastor Carol Daniels' case is unsolved due to the lack of awareness generated in her investigation after almost 5 years. Imo, her case has been placed on the back burner by the OSBI.

I am simply attempting to gently persuade the OSBI to relight the fire in her investigation to seek the truth and insure justice for her and her family.. To accomplish this, imo her thread needs to be upgraded to Hot Case status for increased awareness...

 

[Foxfire]

Still...I do have to wonder about this person in Chicago.

OSBI agents may have new suspect in the murder of an Anadarko pastor

http://www.kswo.com/story/17129605/...w-suspect-in-the-murder-of-an-anadarko-pastor

<Respectfully snipped and BBM for focus>

SeriouslySearching, guess it is possible that IK had friends/contacts in Chicago.
Did Pastor Daniels have a cell phone, if you know? In the 2nd segment of this Discovery ID Dark Minds episode, IK flew into Chicago, IL before renting a car and then driving on to Burlington, VT where he randomly selected, abducted/tortured, and murdered the Curriers in an abandoned farmhouse(06/08/2011). Once IK revealed that he was responsible for the VT Currier murders, the FBI conducted a search of a landfill where it was suspected that their bodies were disposed. The searched expense exceeded $1,000,000.00 and included FBI agents from as far away as CA. The largest search in VT history.. IK was witnessed driving the Curriers car and a sketch prepared. IK, was described as having long scraggly hair and a beard @ the time; <see link below for photo gallery & sketch> The vehicle was located 2 days later, parked in an apt parking lot, aprox 1 mile from the Curriers home. IK, was very cagey/deflective and had no rhyme, but only an unknown reason..

2011 Sketch of IK
http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-vermont-couples-car-driven-man-sketch-witness/story?id=13846414


Discovery ID Dark Minds
http://www.investigationdiscovery.c...el-keyes-did-to-this-woman-will-shock-you.htm

Answers and More Questions<Curriers Murder - VT- Press Conference>
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...ere-abducted-and-killed-in-random-act-Vermont

 

[Loudmouth]

This case has haunted me since it occurred. I hope the lead about the 2 men from Chicago will play out. The autopsy report showed Pastor Daniels fought for her life. From this statement, I assume she would have had DNA under her nails. The DNA must not have had a match with CODIS. This crime was personal. Pastor Daniels had interacted with her attacker(s) before her death. An arrest in the deaths of the Weleetka girls has been made, I hope the same outcome occurs in this case.

I agree. A lot of posters seem to think that there wasn't any DNA found (because otherwise we would know who the killer was). But I think there probably was DNA and maybe the system just doesn't have a match.

For some reason, the burning of the hair and the overkill suggests a female perpetrator to me. My theory is that the murder had something to do with the church or religion in general.
I haven't read through all the posts in this thread. Can anyone tell me if the pastor was married?

 

[fred&edna]

I agree. A lot of posters seem to think that there wasn't any DNA found (because otherwise we would know who the killer was). But I think there probably was DNA and maybe the system just doesn't have a match.

For some reason, the burning of the hair and the overkill suggests a female perpetrator to me. My theory is that the murder had something to do with the church or religion in general.
I haven't read through all the posts in this thread. Can anyone tell me if the pastor was married?

BBM... the burning of the hair... this aspect of the murder seems quite unique (imo), and also leads me to think the murder has religious aspects/motivation. The victim was stabbed, nearly decapitated so obviously the weapon could have been easily used to cut her hair. Thus, burning the hair seems significant. My biblical knowledge is limited, but within the Old Testament, Ezekiel Chapter 5 the burning of hair is mentioned. And, these biblical words... in the twisted mind of a killer... well, I think it's possible this could have some bearing.

 

[Foxfire]

Please go to this Important Dates to Israel Keyes WS thread; comment #11 by Foxfire & give feedback - TIA..

Dates Important To Israel Keys - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Foxfire]

BBM... the burning of the hair... this aspect of the murder seems quite unique (imo), and also leads me to think the murder has religious aspects/motivation. The victim was stabbed, nearly decapitated so obviously the weapon could have been easily used to cut her hair. Thus, burning the hair seems significant. My biblical knowledge is limited, but within the Old Testament, Ezekiel Chapter 5 the burning of hair is mentioned. And, these biblical words... in the twisted mind of a killer... well, I think it's possible this could have some bearing.

fred&edna, thanx for sharing...You just may be on to something. To ignore the religious aspects of a pastor's murder at the altar of her church, posed in a crucifix position, with her hair burned would be analogous to ignoring wind conditions during a conflagration...
Imo, Pastor Carol Daniels, psychopathic murderer was an escalated ritual serial killer from known info derived from the two autopsy/s and other sources.
IK, as was Ted Bundy, was a very escalated ritual serial killer, imo.

Escalated ritual serial killers very rarely go dormant, After almost five years, imo, we would have witnessed other atrocious evil acts committed by this predator...imo

Ezekiel 5 Commentary
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/ezekiel/5.html

______________________________________
'The immediate problem that I see for criminal investigators is that they are not privy to the offender's motivation or thinking pattern.'
'The Devil will be in the Details'...Quote by Vernon Geberth author of the Homicide Investigator's Bible...

"Imo, we know much more about the offender's motivation/s and thinking pattern than the OSBI/FBI investigators".. IK, was/is the Devil's Deciple, imo"

http://www.practicalhomicide.com/current/TULSA2.htm

 

[smc1225]

Snipped....



The time for the 1st event on Sunday was Sunday school at 9:15 AM. I put "9:30" on my last post about this but I reviewed the video of the sign (it is found at mark 0.28, showing 9:15AM ) and found I had made a mistake. The next event was worship at 11:15 AM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BYUqOcpHIc

The Christ Holy Sanctified Church in Anadarko is a familiar place to Bishop Silkey Wilson. He and his wife were headed to Anadarko on Sunday to meet Pastor Daniels for Sunday School when they were met by the unimaginable.

So unless they were early or late they arrived about 9:15 AM to help with Sunday school.

http://www.news9.com/Global/story.asp?S=11006316

According to the Police Log, the first officer on scene was dispatched at 12PM and arrived there at 12:02PM. She then went in through the side door and found Pastor Daniels. At that time, she then called the SGT at 12:09.

So, it would seem that they didn't arrive until closer to noon.

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWS9/PDF/0909/officers_account.pdf

 

[AQuestion]

The bible talks about how a woman's hair is her glory.

http://www.webanswers.com/social-sc...-glory-i-would-like-to-know-where-that-c6de2e

It would have been a horrible scene. It is reported that Pastor Daniels head was nearly completely severed off. She most likely lost all of her blood. After a birth my ex-wife hemorrhaged and lost about half of her blood in the operating room. She survived. The blood covered the floor to the point where the doctor apologized for my seeing it. There would have been so much blood that the killer could not help but be covered in it.

My assumption is that the killer cut Pastor Daniels throat while she was on the floor. I say this because of the defensive wounds on her arms that were reported in the autopsy. That situation would mean that the killer was kneeling in the blood when he cut her breast and throat. I personally not believe that the killer could have left the scene without having changed his clothes as the risk would have been incredible. I also believe the killer wrote something on the back door in blood as the door was removed and held in evidence. My guess is that he also wore gloves.

If what I believe is true then the killer either had a personal hatred of the church and was attempting to make a religious statement or killed Pastor Daniels and wanted it to look like the work of a anti-religious psychopath to send the police off in the wrong direction. While many have written to me about the killing of other Pastors and clergy, none of them are similar to the Pastor Daniels case. For this reason, I believe that it was incredibly personal.

As for the Chicago connection, it may have been as simple as someone who lived in Anadarko during the killing who moved to Chicago.

 

[Foxfire]

The bible talks about how a woman's hair is her glory.

http://www.webanswers.com/social-sc...-glory-i-would-like-to-know-where-that-c6de2e

It would have been a horrible scene. It is reported that Pastor Daniels head was nearly completely severed off. She most likely lost all of her blood. After a birth my ex-wife hemorrhaged and lost about half of her blood in the operating room. She survived. The blood covered the floor to the point where the doctor apologized for my seeing it. There would have been so much blood that the killer could not help but be covered in it.

My assumption is that the killer cut Pastor Daniels throat while she was on the floor. I say this because of the defensive wounds on her arms that were reported in the autopsy. That situation would mean that the killer was kneeling in the blood when he cut her breast and throat. I personally not believe that the killer could have left the scene without having changed his clothes as the risk would have been incredible. I also believe the killer wrote something on the back door in blood as the door was removed and held in evidence. My guess is that he also wore gloves.

If what I believe is true then the killer either had a personal hatred of the church and was attempting to make a religious statement or killed Pastor Daniels and wanted it to look like the work of a anti-religious psychopath to send the police off in the wrong direction. While many have written to me about the killing of other Pastors and clergy, none of them are similar to the Pastor Daniels case. For this reason, I believe that it was incredibly personal.

As for the Chicago connection, it may have been as simple as someone who lived in Anadarko during the killing who moved to Chicago.

AQuestion, imo, her throat would have likely been cut during the initial attack to silence her due to the church being in close proximity to ear witnesses. The multiple stab wounds/slicing would have been sexual in nature and part of the ritual process, imo. Many of the stab/slice wounds were premortem while, others were postmortem..

Most escalated sadistic ritual sexual predators prefer to work in silence, and enjoy watching the life leave their victim's eyes, imo. They are simply playing God. Theodore Cowell/TBundy; Israel Keyes's mentor said, "You feel the last of breath leaving their body, You're looking into their eyes, A person in that situation is God"!

Israel Keyes, who was addicted with the thrill of the kill said that he had issues with organized religion(upside down Cross & Pentagram Tattoos). IK, then laughs thinking about this and then says, "I'm sure it has something with the way that I was raised, but for the most part it is just my general outlook on life, humanity, I guess".

Israel Keyes: General Discussion - Page 4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community <Read More> @ Comment #99

In 2011 IK said that he wondered what would happen if he got more attention for his crimes which had been under reported, undetected, and unquestioned for 13 years.

AQuestion, Pastor Daniel's narcissistic murderer was not deflecting, but sent a very clear message/statement to investigators; 'I am the Devil's Deciple, catch me if you can'.. IK, said in one of his many FBI interviews that he enjoyed monitoring his heinous crimes. He said that responding investigators/police reminded him of ants scurrying around in a hot frying pan..



FYI: Ted Bundy/Theodore Cowell, when interviewed by FBI BSU Profiler Robert Ressler, was very evasive, uncooperative, and spoke in the 3rd person, hypothetically.. as did Israel Keyes during his many FBI interviews.
T Bundy was married and fathered a child; daughter, while on Florida's death row...
http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/Ted_Bundy

 

[Foxfire]

AQuestion, do you know, or can you find out if Pastor Daniels, was wearing silver hoop earrings on the day of her murder? Like the ones in this photo; http://www.practicalhomicide.com/current/TULSA2.htm

Note; date of comment by anonymous with riddle laden poem after the mention of BTK, the truth coming out after 40 years... IK, detested BTK for apologizing for his many heinous crimes..

The Truth is inside you...Pastor Carol Daniels - OK - 08/2009
http://thetruthisinsideyou.blogspot.com/2011/12/osbi-and-pastor-carol-daniels.html

 

[fred&edna]

AQuestion, do you know, or can you find out if Pastor Daniels, was wearing silver hoop earrings on the day of her murder? Like the ones in this photo; http://www.practicalhomicide.com/current/TULSA2.htm

Note; date of comment by anonymous with riddle laden poem after the mention of BTK, the truth coming out after 40 years... IK, detested BTK for apologizing for his many heinous crimes..

The Truth is inside you...Pastor Carol Daniels - OK - 08/2009
http://thetruthisinsideyou.blogspot.com/2011/12/osbi-and-pastor-carol-daniels.html

It's possible that I missed it but... per this autopsy report (link below) it's stated that there were... no clothes, she was wearing a ring on her finger (stone/s turned towards palm), AND she had a single piercing in each ear... but I could find nothing mentioning earrings.

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWSon6/PDF/1005/anadarkoautopsy.pdf


Of note (since I seem to be fixed on her hair being burned rather than simply being cut by the murderer), the wording in the report confuses me a bit... am I to understand the hair was singed to the scalp but only the hair on the top of her head??

"The scalp hair is black, 4 inches long, and shows singed hair to the scalp, likely on top of the head."

 

[Suthrnqt]

It's possible that I missed it but... per this autopsy report (link below) it's stated that there were... no clothes, she was wearing a ring on her finger (stone/s turned towards palm), AND she had a single piercing in each ear... but I could find nothing mentioning earrings.

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWSon6/PDF/1005/anadarkoautopsy.pdf


Of note (since I seem to be fixed on her hair being burned rather than simply being cut by the murderer), the wording in the report confuses me a bit... am I to understand the hair was singed to the scalp but only the hair on the top of her head??

"The scalp hair is black, 4 inches long, and shows singed hair to the scalp, likely on top of the head."

ITA. The wording concerning her singed hair is very confusing. Maybe just the top of the head had burnt hair? And the sides were 4 inches long? :dunno:

 

[Foxfire]

It's possible that I missed it but... per this autopsy report (link below) it's stated that there were... no clothes, she was wearing a ring on her finger (stone/s turned towards palm), AND she had a single piercing in each ear... but I could find nothing mentioning earrings.

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWSon6/PDF/1005/anadarkoautopsy.pdf


Of note (since I seem to be fixed on her hair being burned rather than simply being cut by the murderer), the wording in the report confuses me a bit... am I to understand the hair was singed to the scalp but only the hair on the top of her head??

"The scalp hair is black, 4 inches long, and shows singed hair to the scalp, likely on top of the head."

Thank you very much for the link/info fred&edna..
It would be interesting to know whether PCD's ring was gold, especially if her earrings were taken by the perp. Guess, we can rule out a birthstone style mother's ring since it only had two stones and she had five children, imo.