Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #6 *Arrests*

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Most folks do not understand how quickly a skid steer can dig a large hole. That is what they are made for. About every farm in our community has a skid steer.
Every PU has a set of ratchet straps with it but rarely does one see a freezer in the bed of the truck!!
Just my opinion and 2 cents.
I'd never seen the phrase "skid steer" before. It's another name for a Bobcat.

As for a freezer in the back of a pickup truck, nobody would bat an eye at that either. Maybe someone was moving, or they had bought a used freezer and were transporting it.
 
I'm interested in seeing how that plays out. She and Paul Grice both. So, is it some tactic having to do with their "sovereign citizen" stance?

Yes it will be interesting because I can’t see any reason to confess if choosing to undertake a ‘sovereign citizen’ stance. I’d also question why they’d want attorneys representing them if they don’t believe the law is applicable to them. Although the media is pumping the ‘sovereign citizen’ connection with literally every news piece about them, it hasn’t reared its head in any of the legal proceedings so far so I’m wondering if the tactic is all baseless speculation. JMO

“Sovereign citizens believe they are not under the jurisdiction of the federal government and consider themselves exempt from U.S. law,” Travis McAdam, a senior research analyst at the Southern Poverty Law Center, told me. “And that is all based on a variety of conspiracy theories and falsehoods they use to justify their beliefs and activities.”

Read more at: https://www.kansascity.com/opinion/article288351960.html#storylink=cpy
 
Yes it will be interesting because I can’t see any reason to confess if choosing to undertake a ‘sovereign citizen’ stance. I’d also question why they’d want attorneys representing them if they don’t believe the law is applicable to them. Although the media is pumping the ‘sovereign citizen’ connection with literally every news piece about them, it hasn’t reared its head in any of the legal proceedings so far so I’m wondering if the tactic is all baseless speculation. JMO

“Sovereign citizens believe they are not under the jurisdiction of the federal government and consider themselves exempt from U.S. law,” Travis McAdam, a senior research analyst at the Southern Poverty Law Center, told me. “And that is all based on a variety of conspiracy theories and falsehoods they use to justify their beliefs and activities.”

Read more at: https://www.kansascity.com/opinion/article288351960.html#storylink=cpy
Their crimes and charges are under the jurisdiction of Oklahoma and not federal, right? So, where does that leave them?
 
Their crimes and charges are under the jurisdiction of Oklahoma and not federal, right? So, where does that leave them?

According to this reference document, ‘sovereign citizens’ believe they’re exempt from adhering to any level of law.

Sovereign citizen” is a catchall phrase referring to a variety of anti-government individuals and groups who share some common beliefs and behaviors. The organizations to which many sovereign citizens belong have a variety of names: Moorish Nation, The Aware Group, Washitaw Nation, the North Carolina American Republic, Republic of United States of America, etc. The same views may be embraced by Freeman, Freemen on the Land, Sons of Liberty, and Aryan Nation. Many sovereign citizens may not affiliate with any of those groups. In one way or another, though, all sovereign citizens, whether tied to an organization or not, adhere to a view that the existing American governmental structure, including the courts and law enforcement, is illegitimate and that they, the sovereign citizens, retain an individual common law identity exempting them from the authority of those fraudulent government institutions.
 
Do you have any thoughts on how this will play out? Will she stand quietly and demurely and accept sentence from a judge? Will she go to trial? How do you envision this playing out?

I believe she is turning State's evidence. I do not see a way for her to have admitted her part in the murders without also disclosing the parts her co-defendants played.

A criminal turns state's evidence by admitting guilt and testifying as a witness for the state against their accomplices in exchange for leniency in sentencing.

Her attorney needs to proceed with caution because it hasn't been determined yet if she will be charged with the DP.

2 Cents
 
I believe she is turning State's evidence. I do not see a way for her to have admitted her part in the murders without also disclosing the parts her co-defendants played.

A criminal turns state's evidence by admitting guilt and testifying as a witness for the state against their accomplices in exchange for leniency in sentencing.

Her attorney needs to proceed with caution because it hasn't been determined yet if she will be charged with the DP.

2 Cents
So she's the ringleader, then rats out all her helpers? It's not a good look.

I can't decide what she's up to.
 
So she's the ringleader, then rats out all her helpers? It's not a good look.

I can't decide what she's up to.
I’m curious as well, it doesn’t seem to go with her personality- rolling over and admitting guilt. If anything I expected her to act like a bad-*advertiser censored* and remain silent.

Unless she was trying to point at someone else as the ringleader/mastermind (forced to participate ). Or she had some over the top justification in mind, but that part of her admission wasn’t shared publicly (saving the lives if the kids).
 
I’m curious as well, it doesn’t seem to go with her personality- rolling over and admitting guilt. If anything I expected her to act like a bad-*advertiser censored* and remain silent.

Unless she was trying to point at someone else as the ringleader/mastermind (forced to participate ). Or she had some over the top justification in mind, but that part of her admission wasn’t shared publicly (saving the lives if the kids).

I don’t think she’d be very successful arguing she participated under duress or theat, that someone else was the ringleader considering she purchased the stun guns and cellphones and presumably arranged with VB the meeting time and place, if it differed from the regular supervisor. She was in the centre of everyone involved.

At best I suppose she could try for a Justifiable Homicide defense, that she was protecting her grand children. I recently read the court transcript of the custody hearing posted earlier on these threads. She might argue that as being proof of the acrimonious situation which came to represent the initial stages of her (evil) motivation.

JMO
 
I don’t think she’d be very successful arguing she participated under duress or theat, that someone else was the ringleader considering she purchased the stun guns and cellphones and presumably arranged with VB the meeting time and place, if it differed from the regular supervisor. She was in the centre of everyone involved.

At best I suppose she could try for a Justifiable Homicide defense, that she was protecting her grand children. I recently read the court transcript of the custody hearing posted earlier on these threads. She might argue that as being proof of the acrimonious situation which came to represent the initial stages of her (evil) motivation.

JMO
I never said she would succeed at any of it. Replying to the poster who wondered what she could be up too in admitting guilt. With what little we know at this point, they have plenty to guarantee she never walls free, IMO.
 
I never said she would succeed at any of it. Replying to the poster who wondered what she could be up too in admitting guilt. With what little we know at this point, they have plenty to guarantee she never walls free, IMO.

I agree, it’s doubtful any of them have any way out whether they admit to their guilt or not. The evidence released so far is very damaging and there’s likely more that we don’t know about. The DP might be the only room for negotiation. I don’t think it matters much whether they spend their remaining years in prison or spend years and years appealing a DP. JMO
 
As a matter of law, a confession by itself can not support a conviction, and why you see so many defendants confess to a crime, only to go on to plead not guilty at their first appearance.

By entering a NG plea, this gives their defense attorney the opportunity to investigate their case, and explore their possible defenses..

And this is exactly what happened here: Following her arrest, TA provided LE a recorded statement that she was responsible for the deaths of the victims.

However, at the first appearance, the Court entered NG pleas for not only TA -- but for each of the defendants, and also ordered each defendant be appointed counsel.

Not withstanding TA's alleged affiliation with Sovereign Citizens Movement, she was also the first to lawyer up with not one but three defense lawyers-- long before her co-defendants requested counsel.

As of this date, I've seen anything to support TA intends to change her plea to Guilty. In fact, quite the opposite. IMO, her attorneys are probably engaged in studying how to suppress her confession to LE from being admitted as evidence in her trial, supporting her involvement in the subject murders.

In fact, I don't think the subject of "Sovereign Citizen" will ever enter this trial-- or not by way of any named co-defendants here. This isn't an income or property tax protest-- they are fighting for their lives.

Specific to TA alone, not long ago, she was a licensed process server who was engaged in ensuring that legal documentation arrived at the correct person, and recorded the delivery following the specific local, state and federal laws.

It doesn't follow that a true (sovereign citizen) believer would take part in delivering documents to people named in legal action, or use the OK Court system to fight her son and his former girl friend, for custody of their own children. Nope...just the opposite, given it seems to me that TA has invested a good chunk of coin utilizing the US Court system to both fight against and impose legal action against others. MOO
 
As a matter of law, a confession by itself can not support a conviction, and why you see so many defendants confess to a crime, only to go on to plead not guilty at their first appearance.

By entering a NG plea, this gives their defense attorney the opportunity to investigate their case, and explore their possible defenses..

And this is exactly what happened here: Following her arrest, TA provided LE a recorded statement that she was responsible for the deaths of the victims.

However, at the first appearance, the Court entered NG pleas for not only TA -- but for each of the defendants, and also ordered each defendant be appointed counsel.

Not withstanding TA's alleged affiliation with Sovereign Citizens Movement, she was also the first to lawyer up with not one but three defense lawyers-- long before her co-defendants requested counsel.

As of this date, I've seen anything to support TA intends to change her plea to Guilty. In fact, quite the opposite. IMO, her attorneys are probably engaged in studying how to suppress her confession to LE from being admitted as evidence in her trial, supporting her involvement in the subject murders.

In fact, I don't think the subject of "Sovereign Citizen" will ever enter this trial-- or not by way of any named co-defendants here. This isn't an income or property tax protest-- they are fighting for their lives.

Specific to TA alone, not long ago, she was a licensed process server who was engaged in ensuring that legal documentation arrived at the correct person, and recorded the delivery following the specific local, state and federal laws.

It doesn't follow that a true (sovereign citizen) believer would take part in delivering documents to people named in legal action, or use the OK Court system to fight her son and his former girl friend, for custody of their own children. Nope...just the opposite, given it seems to me that TA has invested a good chunk of coin utilizing the US Court system to both fight against and impose legal action against others. MOO
Not to mention that it was only Grice who filed the revocation of citizenship and nobody else. We also don't know what "she took responsibility" means. For all we know, she said she killed them in self defense or some other BS justification.
 
I mentioned that earlier. A number of WSers speculated her hair was done by other inmates in the jail. Since TA's got great looking hair for her court appearances and Cora appears completely frazzled, I'm guessing TA is in the pod with other women and Cora is the one being held alone. Pure speculation, of course.

Also, since TA is 54 and her oldest grandchild 8, making TA 46 when he was born, and since TA's son seems to be an irresponsible human being and a horror for a parent -- if I were TA's lawyer, I'd be looking at a menopause defense for her. ;)
It could also be as simple as the fact the TA's hair is long enough to braid and Cora's is not.
 
Not to mention that it was only Grice who filed the revocation of citizenship and nobody else. We also don't know what "she took responsibility" means. For all we know, she said she killed them in self defense or some other BS justification.
Do we actually know for certain that none of the other accused ever filed to revoke their citizenship? We know that the Cooks, including their adult daughters, filed their revocations the same days as Grice, so maybe the other misfits had done so as well? or planned to?
 

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