OK OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024

[Cryptic]

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In the end, I have strong suspicion that a significant majority of farm and ranch owners in the area are readily giving permission for their fields to be searched. Most of the remainder can likely be persuaded by:

- Its a likely double homicide of two innocent women. We can get a warrant if we need to. Search warrant issuances are public (Dont know what your neighbors are going to think). But....yes, we can come back with a warrant- if we really need to. ...

 

[NDreu]

Hugoton filled with hope, grief over missing women

It’s been nine days since two women from Hugoton went missing.

www.ksn.com

 

[nao]

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In the end, I have strong suspicion that a significant majority of farm and ranch owners in the area are readily giving permission for their fields to be searched. Most of the remainder can likely be persuaded by:

- Its a likely double homicide of two innocent women. We can get a warrant if we need to. Search warrant issuances are public (Dont know what your neighbors are going to think). But....yes, we can come back with a warrant- if we really need to. ...

Moo...I dunno about. After living in rural farm land. Nobody gives a crap about what the neighbors think. And permission would not be given for searches just because people are possessive over their property aka kingdom, and basically not police friendly....moo

 

[JudiK]

I know this sounds crazy- probably watched too much Rob Zombie- but maybe there is a ranch or home out there with someone meaning harm. I am following this case but I have not heard if there were any tracks leading away from the car (not on the road). Maybe someone came up from behind them and moved them to a remote but local home? Ok. maybe I have watched too many Texas Chainsaw movies. But maybe? right?

 

[Cryptic]

Moo...I dunno about. After living in rural farm land. Nobody gives a crap about what the neighbors think. And permission would not be given for searches just because people are possessive over their property aka kingdom, and basically not police friendly....moo

What the neighbors think might not be as important as what the neighbors might passively do, such as decline to provide assistance to the refuser.

In the end, however, I think it depends on the rural area in question. I get the idea that this area is largely working farms and ranches. As a result, my guess is that the owners have a stake in the community and are more likely to be helpful given the circumstances.

I have lived in a very rural area that would not of been so helpful. But.... there were very few working ranches and farms. Rather, there were a significant number of meth labs, meth users, probation escapees and.... as you refer to, paranoid anti government types that had been juiced up by a local blowhard.

One trick law enforcment used in that area regarding search warrants was:

"Wont give permission to search your fallow fields for drugs stashed by border crossers? Hmmm..... do you own those fields- or do you lease them? Lets see what the tax records state. Ohh....we can call the real owner now...."

A surprising number of property owners did not own all fields, rather they leased them. Calling the true owner and asking permission could result in an amazing change of heart.

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

How do you know they haven't made progress? Investigations are normally carried out in complete secrecy so that the suspects don't know what police know or suspect.

JMO

Because I meant progress as in an arrest or the announcement of a suspect. Obviously I don't think investigators are sitting around playing Uno.

JMO

 

[sony12]

Yes a lot of the people that own those huge swaths of land don't actually live in the area. They lease the land out for others to take care of.

 

[GRT]

I'm kind of thinking that they were either taken at gunpoint or there were two abductors. Otherwise, it seems as though at least one of the women would have run and a single abductor might not have been able to keep two of them in line.

..unless he had a gun...

In self-defense classes, one of the points the instructor makes is to never let an abductor change your location. I can't remember what the odds were, but if you're attacked, you're much more likely to die if you go somewhere with the abductor.

Of course, that's easy to say, but in a real life situation, the victim(s) may think they'll get a chance to get away.

I wonder what the evidence of "foul play" at the car was, and why it wasn't thought of as foul play from the get-go.

I also don't think the abductor(s) kept the women alive for very long. That might be too risky--even on back roads. I'd love to think the women were still alive, but I get a sinking feeling that they may not be--and their bodies might not be all that far away (relatively speaking).

All MOO

 

[Ontario Mom]

I think there are different standards for obtaining search warrants depending on what is being searched. Homes would be at the top in regards to difficulty.

Search warrants for cars, businesses and farm fields may have a lower threshold of proof. This could be especially true if the property to be searched is not "curtilage" such as a back yard.

I'm not a lawyer. In the cases I've followed, to the best of my recollection, there were never different standards for obtaining a search warrant for a property whether it's a residence, barn, car or any other personal property.

In any case, my hope would be that the local property owners would grant access without demanding a warrant, considering the severity of this case.

jmo

 

[Cryptic]

I'm not a lawyer. In the cases I've followed, to the best of my recollection, there were never different standards for obtaining a search warrant for a property whether it's a residence, barn, car or any other personal property.

In my state (Texas) police do not need a search warrant at all to search a car. Rather, they just need to articulate probable cause.

Though I cant say with absolute certainty that fields in say, Texas are not treated at the same level of homes in regards to warrants, I am pretty sure that there are differences depending on what is being searched.

 

[AugustWest]

In my state (Texas) police do not need a search warrant at all to search a car. Rather, they just need to articulate probable cause.

Though I cant say with absolute certainty that fields in say, Texas are not treated at the same level of homes in regards to warrants, I am pretty sure that there are differences depending on what is being searched.

You also have to have a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, supported by evidence, even in traffic stops.

ETA: there are differences in the threshold for searches that relate to one's expectation of privacy, but there must be reasonable suspicion of criminal activity in either situation.

 

[Ontario Mom]

In my state (Texas) police do not need a search warrant at all to search a car. Rather, they just need to articulate probable cause.

Though I cant say with absolute certainty that fields in say, Texas are not treated at the same level of homes in regards to warrants, I am pretty sure that there are differences depending on what is being searched.

Right, it's the probable cause that is the speed bump here. If someone's pulled over for erratic driving or some other moving violation, then the officer smells pot or the driver starts acting like a jerk, then there's your probable cause.

Just because someone owns land in the area the ladies went missing, doesn't equal probable cause they might be on some random property. A judge isn't going to issue search warrants for every piece of property in the area. Now if they found a shoe or something like that in the driveway, well then there's probable cause & a warrant would likely be issued.

Just basing this off of other cases.

 

[Cryptic]

Just because someone owns land in the area the ladies went missing, doesn't equal probable cause they might be on some random property. A judge isn't going to issue search warrants for every piece of property in the area.

Looks like the police dont need search warrants for open fields either- though they may still get them via an abundance of caution. Likewise, the closer the fields are to the home (curtilage), the greater the expectation of privacy. :

Open Fields Doctrine

www.law.cornell.edu

In the end, cars and fields are not homes and are not treated the same in regards to police searches.

 

[NDreu]

Looks like the police dont need search warrants for open fields either- though they may still get them via an abundance of caution. Likewise, the fields are to the home (curtilage), the greater the expectation of privacy. :

Open Fields Doctrine

www.law.cornell.edu

In the end, cars and fields are not homes and are not treated the same in regards to police searches.

Interesting! Thanks for posting.

 

[NDreu]

Finally an article today with a bit of assessment courtesy of NewsNation who now has reporters on the ground locally as we saw with their drone footage this am.

Quote from article:

NewsNation) — The mystery continues to deepen surrounding the disappearance of two Kansas mothers who vanished more than a week ago.

Veronica Butler, 27, and Jilian Kelley, 39, from Hugoton, Kansas, disappeared Mar. 30 without a trace except for an abandoned car found by Butler’s husband on the side of a road.

The Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation said Wednesday “there was evidence to indicate foul play” based on information obtained from their vehicle.

[The search efforts appear to be severely lacking. Despite the police’s belief of possible foul play, there are no visible signs of an active, large-scale search — no grid searches, no canine units, no command center]. BBM

NewsNation captured drone footage of the vast open area where the women’s car was found abandoned.

Drone footage shows area where missing Kansas moms’ car found

The mystery continues to deepen surrounding the disappearance of two Kansas mothers who vanished more than a week ago.

www.newsnationnow.com

 

[AugustWest]

Looks like the police dont need search warrants for open fields either- though they may still get them via an abundance of caution. Likewise, the closer the fields are to the home (curtilage), the greater the expectation of privacy. :

Open Fields Doctrine

www.law.cornell.edu

In the end, cars and fields are not homes and are not treated the same in regards to police searches.

This is good and accurate information, but the requirement of reasonable suspicion of criminal activity must be particular to the parcel which will be searched. The police can't get a warrant for every field in the panhandle; only those where the police have reasonable suspicion that criminal activity has occurred.

 

[Cryptic]

This is good and accurate information, but the requirement of reasonable suspicion of criminal activity must be particular to the parcel which will be searched. The police can't get a warrant for every field in the panhandle; only those where the police have reasonable suspicion that criminal activity has occurred.

I would start with the open fields where the car was found. Then.... go from there as more evidence establishes reasonable suspicion in other areas.

Too bad the Texas Rangers, LEO team only gets to play in Texas. They have a reputation for batting excellence.

 

[GRT]

Finally an article today with a bit of assessment courtesy of NewsNation who now has reporters on the ground locally as we saw with their drone footage this am.

Quote from article:

NewsNation) — The mystery continues to deepen surrounding the disappearance of two Kansas mothers who vanished more than a week ago.

Veronica Butler, 27, and Jilian Kelley, 39, from Hugoton, Kansas, disappeared Mar. 30 without a trace except for an abandoned car found by Butler’s husband on the side of a road.

The Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation said Wednesday “there was evidence to indicate foul play” based on information obtained from their vehicle.

[The search efforts appear to be severely lacking. Despite the police’s belief of possible foul play, there are no visible signs of an active, large-scale search — no grid searches, no canine units, no command center]. BBM

NewsNation captured drone footage of the vast open area where the women’s car was found abandoned.

Drone footage shows area where missing Kansas moms’ car found

The mystery continues to deepen surrounding the disappearance of two Kansas mothers who vanished more than a week ago.

www.newsnationnow.com

Thanks!

The drone footage shows they found the car on a back road -- a gravel road. I live off a gravel road in KS and most folks won't drive it unless they are going somewhere local. Was this the route the women planned to take? Or, was someone following them and they turned off on a gravel road to shake them but it didn't work?

I can't imagine two women turning off a paved road to drive down a remote gravel road unless there's a good reason.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[GRT]

This is good and accurate information, but the requirement of reasonable suspicion of criminal activity must be particular to the parcel which will be searched. The police can't get a warrant for every field in the panhandle; only those where the police have reasonable suspicion that criminal activity has occurred.

That's good information and in the past 20 years we've lived in rural Kansas, there have been maybe three searches of nearby acreage. Once when an inmate from the county jail escaped and once when LE was chasing someone in a vehicle and they got out and ran. I don't remember the situation behind the third time. But each of those times, they had helicopters in the air and a large number of deputies from our county and neighboring counties swarming up and down the roads. Those were different in that they were "right now" occurrences. By the time they found the women's car, some time had passed. Still, I would think they would have searched at least a little...