One Killer or More?

[minazoe]

One killer or six...if six..what is the draw of this particular spot? Can it just be that every young man of a certain geography would be familiar with the area from summer excursions? And everyone knows no one is there off season? How dark and silent, devoid of cars..

Or does it really have a rep as a dump? Have we ever looked at the overall homicide history of the area? Folk lore? Something that would draw a killer?

 

[LINative13]

A resident of a surrounding town or someone who has spent some consistent time.

 

[minazoe]

Well, to imagine 6 killers from surrounding areas, all dumping bodies over by the kindly doctor's house, I have to stretch it pretty far...

 

[Fireweed]

NYC is one of the few places where I could see multiple killers using the same body dump site. After all, you dump a body anywhere in the five boroughs and someone will find it immediately. Are the police still even trying to solve these cases? So many people were murdered and I have not heard boo about it in years.

I do believe that the mother of the toddler was either a prostitute, or somehow a member of an "unseen" underclass. I could certainly see a grown woman going missing and maybe not having a family that cares for her (Michelle Knight), but anyone with a baby that has a family or friends would certainly have people worried if she went missing. I guess I could see how adult interpersonal relationships might lead to a big enough rift, but generally when there is an innocent baby involved at least ONE person cares.

I am no scientist, but I know with the "iceman" Ötzi who was found in the Alps, they were able to analyze his teeth to determine where he grew up. Could they not do something like that with these unidentified bodies? I don't get why it would be impossible when they can do it with a 5,000 old mummy.

 

[giagreen]

The mother of the child victim has yet to be even entered into NamUs. I have been told by my contact at NamUs that she was in direct talks with the medical examiner to try to get them to enter this woman into the NamUs database but the detectives will not sign off on it. There is either something they do not wish to disclose publicly or something else is at work here. Last time I inquired about the mother (otherwise known as JD 10) with my contact was several weeks ago. At that time I was told there is a new medical examiner and we are back at square one.

In my opinion this victim deserves to have some attempt made toward her identification. To be in limbo indefinitely and left out in the cold from the database of the missing and unidentified is wrong on many levels.

PS To my knowledge it was reported that of the mother they had her "torso" and "uppers" - though not quite sure what that means exactly (but I guess no head). And I know JD 9 (9098) whose head was found nearby was reportedly found in a plastic garbage bag and I've seen reports that say the mother (JD 10) was also found in a bag, but who knows for sure.

I totally agree with you. This woman has a right to at least try and find her identity. I personally feel it is our job as the public to help. It's our job as humans to care deeply. I know I care.
So maybe I am a little naïve here. But I have a hard time believing that every single cop in SCPD is dirty and that the FBI is totally cool with that.
So that leave me with having to assume that they are not trying to find her identity for a reason. Your right something is going on here. They either don't want us knowing something that they do. Or have an idea on who she is and just need to prove it some how. IDK how NamUS works completely. But lets just say that if the mother (janedoe 10) was in fact missing her head. And it was only her torso and arms (assuming that's what uppers means) then would they even be able to even attempt to identify her? Would they be able to even attempt to give a height or anything?
The only other thing I keep thinking is that maybe just maybe the mother has distinctive cut marks on her from what ever was used to dismember the body. And that is what they don't want us to know.

 

[Fireweed]

I just cannot believe that LE is "sitting" on information in case that, as far as I can tell, they do not have any solid leads for.

I am not normally a conspiracy theorist, but something is just so off about the handling of this case that I am starting to strongly suspect that LE is covering for someone. At least 10 people have been murdered (one a baby), and still there has been no progress in this case in two years.

 

[sleuthinforfun]

I totally agree with you. This woman has a right to at least try and find her identity. I personally feel it is our job as the public to help. It's our job as humans to care deeply. I know I care.
So maybe I am a little naïve here. But I have a hard time believing that every single cop in SCPD is dirty and that the FBI is totally cool with that.
So that leave me with having to assume that they are not trying to find her identity for a reason. Your right something is going on here. They either don't want us knowing something that they do. Or have an idea on who she is and just need to prove it some how. IDK how NamUS works completely. But lets just say that if the mother (janedoe 10) was in fact missing her head. And it was only her torso and arms (assuming that's what uppers means) then would they even be able to even attempt to identify her? Would they be able to even attempt to give a height or anything?
The only other thing I keep thinking is that maybe just maybe the mother has distinctive cut marks on her from what ever was used to dismember the body. And that is what they don't want us to know.

There wasn't a sketch of her face, either. (Or was there?) If she was also dismembered, that would certainly change things up. The Manorville women's heads were found at Gilgo, but if the mother's head wasn't found there, where is it?

 

[ps149]

this is why they can never catch one killer responsible for all of these murders; it's probably THREE.

 

[ps149]

HOLY COW... this all makes perfect sense... SIX KILLERS!

 

[Notorious]

I love this thread and the theory! If you've read my comments around here I have NEVER thought that the same killer was responsible for ALL of the bodies found alongside ocean parkway. I don't find it AT ALL that odd or coincidental that six or maybe more killers have used the same dumping location. It's New York! NY has the highest population density in the country. There is no where to hide a body, even on Long Island, without it eventually being discovered. There's not many places where humans being don't roam. The woods out in Mannorville, better known as the pine barrans have been a popular dumping ground for may killers over the years. The same way that bodies are always found in the waterways around Manhattan or in landfills.

There are people here that think one person is responsible for every single body found on Long Island in the last two decades! You're probably talking hundreds of bodies!

I also don't think it's that odd that there is more than one active serial killer roaming Long Island at the same time. It wouldn't be the first time. Joel Rifkin and Robert Shulman were active around the same time. We can add John Bittrolf to the list too. He's been indicted for two deaths but is suspected in a third.

I have always thought the GB4 who were originally discovered, were completely seperate from the rest. They have lots in common with each other and nothing with the others, except their occupation which again, is not all that coincidental and uncommon. That brings us back to Rifkin, Shulman and Bittrolf, ALL targeted prostitutes. They are a common target because of the risky often nomadic lifestyle they live. I'm sure we can name at least 5 other killers who have exclusively targeted them if we really wanted to.

I like that you have really thought outside the box here and you brought up many good points. When people talk about LISK, in my head, they are talking about the person responsible for the GB4 and that's it. The other killings could've been other serial killers or just random acts or gang, pimp related. again, there's not too many remote places on long island aside from the spots mentioned here. If you drive out east I'm sure you may have a better choice but I doubt if the killer lives in eastern Nassau or western Suffolk where the population is more dense, they are going to risk driving with a dead body in the car all the way to those places. A random body part which is easier to conceal, fine, but not a whole body. If the killer(s) live in the aforementioned areas then it explains why so many killers are using it. Ocean parkway is probably as remote as you can get.

 

[Notorious]

Wondering if politics played a part in announcing the one killer theory. It is forgiveable to have a lone psycho on the loose. But having multiple killers out there suggests an environment that cultivates killers and allows them to operate with ease (and without fear of getting caught).

No comish wants for it to known that killers can operate so easily on his watch.

Sea slug - I love your assessment of the murders, well done. I have only on comment to make and that's about the Asian male victim. You stated that his murder was "brutal". With that being said, I can definitley see a cross dressing prostitute. If his teeth indicate crack use, then there's a good chance he was prostituting to support his habit. Even so, getting picked up as a woman and then finding out he's a man could cause (IMO) such a brutal attack. A lot of people would get freaked out and upset if it happened to them. So I find the idea put forth by others very plausible. Imagine your a killer of woman, it's the most important part of your fantasy. You have everything planned out meticulously. And then at the final step, when all you need is your victim. You end up picking a male by mistake. Overkill occurs. Who knows? I'm just throwing it out there. Keep up the amazing work everyone.

It has happened more than a few times before in the tristate area.

How can anyone say SG is not related to the others? How could anyone know that unless they knew who the killer is?

SG was a working girl. The other four gals were also working gals. They all got there by answering a Craig's List type advertisement. THE EVIDENCE IS OVERWHELMING, at least to this point that they ARE connected. That should stand as a premise until such time it has been absolutely proven otherwise.

I don't think their occupations is overwhelming evidence that connects them. They are a common target. Philip Markoff, "the Craigslist killer" also got his victims off Craigslist. Sites like Craigslist are the new, easier way of obtaining victims. . I mean Shulman, Rifkin AND Bittrolf were all killing prostitiutes around the same time in the 90's and back then it wasn't half as easy to find them as it is today! Is it a coincidence they ended up around the same area? Well yes, that is but it doesn't mean they're related. stranger things have happened in this world. If you see the area that Shannon was found, she was pretty deep in the marsh. I doubt someone like Hackett with his bum leg would be able to drag her body that far Into a marsh.

 

[ps149]

I don't think their occupations is overwhelming evidence that connects them. They are a common target. Philip Markoff, "the Craigslist killer" also got his victims off Craigslist. Sites like Craigslist are the new, easier way of obtaining victims. . I mean Shulman, Rifkin AND Bittrolf were all killing prostitiutes around the same time in the 90's and back then it wasn't half as easy to find them as it is today! Is it a coincidence they ended up around the same area? Well yes, that is but it doesn't mean they're related. stranger things have happened in this world. If you see the area that Shannon was found, she was pretty deep in the marsh. I doubt someone like Hackett with his bum leg would be able to drag her body that far Into a marsh.

You make some very good points. I don't know the specifics but I do remember reading about (and watching enough true crime shows about) how most serial killers do not deviate much from their MO's. Shannon was found dead very close to where she last met a John. Her last customer was not a secret whereas the GB4 all went missing mysteriously from very different locations. Then there's the baby as well as those that are dismembered. Then there's the Asian male. All with different causes of deaths. Those who dismember body parts are entirely different kinds of killers than those who strangle. and leave bodies staged for others to find. All different MO's... all different killers in my own opinion.

 

[Notorious]

You make some very good points. I don't know the specifics but I do remember reading about (and watching enough true crime shows about) how most serial killers do not deviate much from their MO's. Shannon was found dead very close to where she last met a John. Her last customer was not a secret whereas the GB4 all went missing mysteriously from very different locations. Then there's the baby as well as those that are dismembered. Then there's the Asian male. All with different causes of deaths. Those who dismember body parts are entirely different kinds of killers than those who strangle. and leave bodies staged for others to find. All different MO's... all different killers in my own opinion.

You also bring up a good point! Shannan's last meeting with her John (brewer) was not secretive like the other girls. The other four girls seemed to have left their homes without their normal security precautions in place. Shannan had a driver in whom took her to where she wanted to go. None of the GB4 had another person along with them. They seemed to have been drawn out of their comforts all by themselves and with the promise of more money.

I agree about the serial killers not changing their MO. Why be so careful to cut up bodies to avoid identification only to get lazy later on and leave entire bodies in tact?? . One can argue that their confidence level grew because the bodies weren't being discovered but there is a lot of other evidence to suggest that LISK isn't as criminally sophisticated most. Although he seems to be aware of investigative tactics, he is unsophisticated in his risks. Dismembering is usually part of the ritual.

I feel like the toddler and mother, the Asian male and the others were possibly random killings. The mother and toddler could've been killed by the father of the toddler. We don't know what her occupation was. The Asian male could've met his demise by any random guy who got angry because he thought her was picking up a female. The lack of identification makes me wonder how police can be so sure they were all related.

 

[Dumas911]

At least 20 yrs because legs from one of the victims washed ashore at Fire Island back in 96.

 

[Fish240]

I think this area is a logical choice for dumping of victims. There are not that many safe areas to operate it appears to me. I think they are looking at two S/K or maybe one that morphed. They learn as they go and as fantasy dictates. The mind does not know fantasy from reality in the mind of a sexual predator. If you study these people they start close to home in a comfort zone as they progress and feel safer they range outward. The web sites make for easy hunting it is a target rich environment. Find the first victim and you will be one step closer to the killer or killers. The burlap is also indicative of someone who works on the water for a living. Many clam and oyster boats as well conk boats will at times use the burlap bags.

 

[Darrenpb]

Hi guys I'm in Australia just some info to help it might have already be covered it is my study of your notes to believe that you are looking for a white male from a conservative or moral background like church , his MO is vulnerable white girls who are desperate for money , he usually lures them after chats on the phone , if they feel unsafe he will have a second phone that he will ring them on and change tack , he will give them some initial control like letting them choose the place of meeting and he will gain trust he has been on dating sites and would list his work as long hours , he lacks confidence and has been rejected by a few past dates so he has control of the dates in these scenarioswhere he will take them to his place where he changes , this person scouts backpage as well and has a sex or *advertiser censored* addiction which is very well covered , his crimes is not being committed at home , rather he has a second place with close proximity to the crimes scene where he dumps them , some one mentioned a boat he could have arunabout, but judging by the material he wraps them in he could have access to this material in another job so is used as it is easy to wrap up and hide when not used , such material means he is having his mode of transport lined with plastic to make sure cleaning is not leaving any trace , when the bodies are found he usually lays low for a month or two , he is most likely employed in a profession that uses computers and he could have more than one pc in his house and regularly cleans the Cache and history he is meticulous in cleaning tracks and will be reading this site.

 

[FindHG]

Hi guys I'm in Australia just some info to help it might have already be covered it is my study of your notes to believe that you are looking for a white male from a conservative or moral background like church , his MO is vulnerable white girls who are desperate for money , he usually lures them after chats on the phone , if they feel unsafe he will have a second phone that he will ring them on and change tack , he will give them some initial control like letting them choose the place of meeting and he will gain trust he has been on dating sites and would list his work as long hours , he lacks confidence and has been rejected by a few past dates so he has control of the dates in these scenarioswhere he will take them to his place where he changes , this person scouts backpage as well and has a sex or *advertiser censored* addiction which is very well covered , his crimes is not being committed at home , rather he has a second place with close proximity to the crimes scene where he dumps them , some one mentioned a boat he could have arunabout, but judging by the material he wraps them in he could have access to this material in another job so is used as it is easy to wrap up and hide when not used , such material means he is having his mode of transport lined with plastic to make sure cleaning is not leaving any trace , when the bodies are found he usually lays low for a month or two , he is most likely employed in a profession that uses computers and he could have more than one pc in his house and regularly cleans the Cache and history he is meticulous in cleaning tracks and will be reading this site.

:

:welcome::australia:​

What a great first post and nice of you to join! Sounds like a brilliant profile and very on point, to me. Thank you for taking time and thought to share it. I hope you continue to do so.


Some recent press:

The secret life of a websleuth and how they’re on the hunt for the Long Island serial killer
By Olivia Lambert, News.com Australia
Nov 13 16, 8:26 pm Au.

 

[elvissolves]

i havent read enough yet. Is hard to find reliable information so i contacted my new friend putting out the documentary and said maybe I can help. I think you should all watch season of dexter the one with the barrel girls. I think we have a boy group 3 or 4 and that one of them was in a position of power to keep out the fbi and keep things from moving forward correctly Ithink this man killed the asian man. If you know what he was charged with losing his job finally and going to jail it makes more sense why he is the one that killed the asian. Anyway is my first time here. My mother helped you with btk I will not let you know whom she is but she had your ear and support and someone scared her after btk so think she is not on here whatsoever anymore. Maybe she is we no longer talk on cases etc.. like we used to when I helped her a bit. So this is it for now ill try to be back soon I really wish to watch the next 6 episodes and see what I see and think and maybe i can help a bit time will tell.

 

[Blueeyedbrowngirl]

My thoughts:

It's the work of one individual whose methods may have changed with time/age maturation and due to life events and/or milestones. The shift from dismemberment to strangulation could result from a number of things: physical impairment (specifically with age progression), a change in work hours/shift, relocation to a neighborhood not conducive to his previous habits, marriage, or the birth of a child.

Likewise, because he follows the news and online forums recounting/analyzing his initial mistakes, he's honed his methods to avoid repeat errors.

The individual is likely in his late 40's to early 50's if he is indeed responsible for the legs found on Fire Island in 1996. He's never been active in law enforcement or the military though he's always wanted to be; he's a knowledgeable observer/hanger- on, perhaps. Though shy or distant in social settings, he is calm, persuasive and calculating when one on one. He taunts and inflicts verbal, emotional and physical abuse on his victims but won't do so with an intimate partner in his personal life. He's well groomed and won't stand out in a crowd. He doesn't work in Manhattan but knows it's a good place for making nearly untraceable phone calls.

I think he was a repeat customer of some of the victims; maybe even being an affable gentleman, of sorts, to build trust. He's BTK with more personality and he's not lying dormant. He peruses the internet daily searching for new prey and though elated by the press coverage, he's equally frustrated because it hinders him in acting again though he will. He will still strike close to home but may expand his dumping grounds.

If these killings were the work of 3 individuals, at least one would've been caught by now. In some respects LISK has the steely resolve of Zodiac; I don't think he will misstep as BTK did or become as sloppy, unhinged and unraveled as Ted Bundy did.

 

[Natga]

I believe it is three. But I also believe they are all affiliated and act as a crew.