One Killer or More?

[mraccountant]

Sparta

Thanks for your reply , I am going to watch Girl with Dragon, ill also read it - but for now ill watch it and see what you are talking about - you have me intrigued

I think there is strong evidence to support this though

Mraccountant, your post reminds me of a Movie called "the girl with the dragon tattoo" as a matter of fact when I watch this movie it creepily reminds me in some ways of this entire Case. Father and Son killing women whom they feel have sinned. These SK's have something that draws them in to their victims and vice versa. Chilling.

 

[Blak_dude]

Isn't it kinda fair to assume , there are groups of serials who know and contact each other . Why wouldn't you use (.alt) in web searching for these weird serial communities ? These people are in the under belly of society not out in the open

 

[mysteryattic]

Isn't it kinda fair to assume , there are groups of serials who know and contact each other . Why wouldn't you use (.alt) in web searching for these weird serial communities ? These people are in the under belly of society not out in the open

Sounds like an episode of Criminal Minds! I would think that narcissists would not want to connect with another. I think this guy or guys is/are narcissistic and sadistic.

 

[kat913]

When I first followed this case, I believed there could only be one because there were so many different body parts found and each was related in some way to another.
But, I have gone back and re-read the 1st thread and followed the developments all over again and realized there was a lapse in search by LE and I can see how Peter (from docu-series) stated he believed there were 2. There would have been plenty of time to "taint" the GB4 with the dismembered parts which would have at the very least caused confusion for the investigation but also would have disturbed the GB4's creation and his mind!! For such chaos to be strewn in with his perfectly orchestrated masterpiece!

So, I am now leaning towards at least 2...maybe more if that area has a history of dumping and some can be attributed to random drops.

 

[hawkshaw]

There may be several killers. But they are all from the same thread of one general set of circumstances. I personally believe there are at least two people involved in the murders and disposing of the bodies.

 

[Aidie]

I reckon Brewer and Hackett and possibly Bisset are part of some sort of sex ring.
I think that Brewer provided the location and Hackett provided the drugs for the party. The night that Shannon vabished I believe she was drugged by Brewer. As the drugs took effect I think possibly Shannon over heard or was told directly what was going to happen to her. Maybe adrenaline brought Shannon round enough to make a call to 911 which panicked Brewer. This all relies on the idea that Brewer didnt knw until Shannon blurted that her driver was outside but I believe after the phone call and realising Shannon had a driver Brewer rushed out to get Micheal Pak to get rid of her.
Shannon took off and I believe got lost o the marsh and died from exposure.
but Hackett and Brewer werent to know that.
I think they panicked and Hackett called Shannons mother fishing to see if Shannon had returned home and tried to cover the drugging by saying he had treated her.
When shannon didnt turn up then he recanted his statement and denied even making the calls.
Bisset could have been a possible member of the sex parties and suplied the berlap sacks some of the bodies were discovered in. Under the mounting pressure of the discoveries or maybe guilt he commited suicide.
All men know the area well enough to know the bodies wouldnt be discovered. I think they've been having numerous sex parties and eventually it led to murder. Is that so far fetched?...afterall there are peadophile rings out there.

 

[Mycalling]

I am just baffled that Baby Doe and her Mother just vanish and nobody notices.

 

[No it's not]

I reckon Brewer and Hackett and possibly Bisset are part of some sort of sex ring.
I think that Brewer provided the location and Hackett provided the drugs for the party. The night that Shannon vabished I believe she was drugged by Brewer. As the drugs took effect I think possibly Shannon over heard or was told directly what was going to happen to her. Maybe adrenaline brought Shannon round enough to make a call to 911 which panicked Brewer. This all relies on the idea that Brewer didnt knw until Shannon blurted that her driver was outside but I believe after the phone call and realising Shannon had a driver Brewer rushed out to get Micheal Pak to get rid of her.
Shannon took off and I believe got lost o the marsh and died from exposure.
but Hackett and Brewer werent to know that.
I think they panicked and Hackett called Shannons mother fishing to see if Shannon had returned home and tried to cover the drugging by saying he had treated her.
When shannon didnt turn up then he recanted his statement and denied even making the calls.
Bisset could have been a possible member of the sex parties and suplied the berlap sacks some of the bodies were discovered in. Under the mounting pressure of the discoveries or maybe guilt he commited suicide.
All men know the area well enough to know the bodies wouldnt be discovered. I think they've been having numerous sex parties and eventually it led to murder. Is that so far fetched?...afterall there are peadophile rings out there.

Welcome Aidie! I just saw your post. That's exactly what I am looking for all day, there is an article somewhere, when JB said SG showed up "surprisingly" with a driver! I was not able to locate it. Yes, it is very possible, that JB was first unaware of the driver. Not sure if it is common procedure for an escort not to mention a driver? I really like to find that article and verify JB's wording.

Nin

 

[kat913]

No it's not...I found this in 1st thread but I am unable to access full article because need to be member but copied jist of article that was posted for you...

Brewer told Newsday in an interview Tuesday that he had contacted Gilbert through Craigslist and arranged a date. But after she arrived unexpectedly with a driver and began to act strangely, he told her to leave. He said she then ran down the street and banged on a neighbor's door.

He said he had been interviewed previously by police, had been fully cooperative and that he had taken a lie detector test. He said Gilbert left his home at his insistence and that he had called police. The driver who brought her to the house also has been interviewed by police.

"I didn't do anything. I was totally cooperative," Brewer said. "I have nothing to do with this."

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/s...-man-1.2544876

 

[No it's not]

No it's not...I found this in 1st thread but I am unable to access full article because need to be member but copied jist of article that was posted for you...

Brewer told Newsday in an interview Tuesday that he had contacted Gilbert through Craigslist and arranged a date. But after she arrived unexpectedly with a driver and began to act strangely, he told her to leave. He said she then ran down the street and banged on a neighbor's door.

He said he had been interviewed previously by police, had been fully cooperative and that he had taken a lie detector test. He said Gilbert left his home at his insistence and that he had called police. The driver who brought her to the house also has been interviewed by police.

"I didn't do anything. I was totally cooperative," Brewer said. "I have nothing to do with this."

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/s...-man-1.2544876

Oh wow, thank you very much! You rock! So, it was "unexpectedly". I find that wording very interesting.

-Nin

 

[kat913]

Yes, that is curious...seems she called him to come w/o JB's knowledge?? Yet he ran out to tell driver he wanted her gone??

 

[ObsessedNightOwl]

Kolker writes in his book Lost Girls that when SG arrived at Oak Beach community with her driver MP, they found the gate locked and had to call someone to come and unlock the gate. Assuming the person that came to unlock the gate was JB, you would then think that he knew SG had a driver waiting outside the house.

From the book:

"Micheal dialed a number on his phone and a moment later another SUV - this one white - approached the gate from the other side. The driver's door opened. Out stepped a middle-aged man with a potbelly and a wavy mess of dark hair. The man waved, jogged a few feet up to the gatehouse, punched in four digits, smiling over at them. The gate swung up, and Michael waited for the man to get back into his car before following him down a path that he hadn't seen, back toward the house with the light"

Another interesting passage from the book that sheds light on the timeline and how long SG's date out at Oak Beach lasted before she disappeared:

"Just before five A.M., the john tapped on the window of Michael Pak's Explorer.
'Can you get her out?'
'What?'
'She won't leave'
The john, Joe Brewer, didn't seem angry or scared - just polite, if a little impatient.
Michael and Shannon had done a few Long Island calls, but not Oak Beach. The appointment was for two hours, which made it worth their while. Even if they missed calls while they were out there, it made sense for them to go out there for three hundred dollars - or more if she could extend the date.
And Shannon did. They were in their third hour when Brewer came out to get Michael.......But Brewer seemed pretty relaxed about it. Michael guessed that he had done this a lot. Brewer was game"

Apologies if this has all been brought up before.
Have not had the time to comb through all of the threads.
By the way, Kolker's book is well worth the read.

 

[maddalena1]

I reckon Brewer and Hackett and possibly Bisset are part of some sort of sex ring.
I think that Brewer provided the location and Hackett provided the drugs for the party. The night that Shannon vabished I believe she was drugged by Brewer. As the drugs took effect I think possibly Shannon over heard or was told directly what was going to happen to her. Maybe adrenaline brought Shannon round enough to make a call to 911 which panicked Brewer. This all relies on the idea that Brewer didnt knw until Shannon blurted that her driver was outside but I believe after the phone call and realising Shannon had a driver Brewer rushed out to get Micheal Pak to get rid of her.
Shannon took off and I believe got lost o the marsh and died from exposure.
but Hackett and Brewer werent to know that.
I think they panicked and Hackett called Shannons mother fishing to see if Shannon had returned home and tried to cover the drugging by saying he had treated her.
When shannon didnt turn up then he recanted his statement and denied even making the calls.
Bisset could have been a possible member of the sex parties and suplied the berlap sacks some of the bodies were discovered in. Under the mounting pressure of the discoveries or maybe guilt he commited suicide.
All men know the area well enough to know the bodies wouldnt be discovered. I think they've been having numerous sex parties and eventually it led to murder. Is that so far fetched?...afterall there are peadophile rings out there.

I agree with your theory but not sure who the players are. I have always felt it was /is a group. I've wondered about the motive being snuff, ritual, or a way for this group to release stress? Perhaps the call to Melissa 's sister was to make it look like it was a sicko sadistic killer to throw law enforcement off the trail. If they don't get justice on earth, I take comfort knowing there is a special place in hell for them when their time is up.

 

[maddalena1]

Maybe they were illegals?

 

[maddalena1]

I am just baffled that Baby Doe and her Mother just vanish and nobody notices.

maybe they were illegals

 

[LR1]

The other thing to consider is this- it doesn't make any sense that a resident of Oak Beach would dump bodies so close to his/her community right along the only major road where it would be easiest to be caught. If all of the victims remains were found in that saltwater marsh that is only really accessible by Oak Beach community residents then I would agree.

Think it through... a local... an Oak Beach resident would have known all of the places in the area (like the salt water marsh) where a body could be dumped without any fear of being detected). However, someone driving through the area who wasn't from there would stick to the side of the highway for easy access and easy escape. Then there are the remains that were found in Nassau county near Zack's bay/Jones Beach. This is an entirely different terrain that is only really accessible by a hiker or someone who is a beach worker or knows about the utility road back there that the beach workers utilize. but some of those remains were also parts of the bodies that were found out in Manorville. So now we have all these different murder victims... some chopped-up, some left for dead, some placed in burlap, etc... left in all different places that are accessed in such different ways. No killer who wants to be efficient and not get caught would deviate from his MO in such drastic ways. Hell- one or two legs were even dumped in the bay off of a bridge, a boat or a dock in deep enough water with strong enough currents to carry those remains all the way South and East to Davis Park Fire Island. That's yet another MO.

No way this is all the work of one killer spread out over several decades.

No way.

I'm pretty sure all these bodies were found less than 50' into the bramble. The Mom JD was found near that service road but not down it, to my knowledge she was right off of Ocean Parkway like all the rest. One or more killers I do not know but its notable that nine out of the ten bodies were thought to be killed and likely placed there within that ten year period from late 2000 to late 2010. The Fire Island Jane Doe with all the searching done was the only thing found from the nineties and nothing from earlier. No old gangland victims or any other bodies from local MP's domestic type cases or whatever unless this mom/child turns out to be that. Fire Islands similarities to the manorville victims four years later can't be overlooked. Dismembered females, body parts in different places with identifying parts found on OP. I'm not going to get into the Manorville-Gilgo commonalities again but when added together, in my mind hold more weight than two killers because of different signatures. The Mother/Daughter jane doe's that seem to bookend the whole scene is where I'm drawing a blank. Maybe my mind won't let me go there. If any is unrelated I'd pick them.

 

[SurfieTX]

Has the idea of a woman partner been entertained? I keep thinking about Jaren Lockhart.

 

[Thedarkpoet]

3 killers is an interesting theory.MB in a rivalry with LISK Fire Island and the others were victims of opportunity not one of MB or LISK's victims transient serial killers coming in and out of LI and NYC and across the country.

 

[FindHG]

:welcome3:​

Wonderful to have you here. Please, let me know if I can help you find the right discussion threads or anything else, as you go. Fresh eyes, local knowledge, concern, curiosity, sharing ideas and information, any help trying to find answers toward justice for these victims is very welcome on Websleuths. Thank you all, for taking the time to register and for pitching in.

I am just baffled that Baby Doe and her Mother just vanish and nobody notices.

Maybe her people did notice her missing but have no idea this mom and toddler ended up in LI. Thanks for joining, Mycalling, great to have you on the threads.

3 killers is an interesting theory.MB in a rivalry with LISK Fire Island and the others were victims of opportunity not one of MB or LISK's victims transient serial killers coming in and out of LI and NYC and across the country.

The LISK perp and the other/s all seem to have been very familiar with LI and the coastal geography especially. Those areas where the remains, as opposed to Jones Beach say, would not be as permissible to a complete stranger roaming around, I have the impression. Thank you for joining, Thedarkpoet, welcome to Websleuths. I look forward to reading more of what you think.

Kolker writes in his book Lost Girls that when SG arrived at Oak Beach community with her driver MP, they found the gate locked and had to call someone to come and unlock the gate. Assuming the person that came to unlock the gate was JB, you would then think that he knew SG had a driver waiting outside the house.

From the book:

"Micheal dialed a number on his phone and a moment later another SUV - this one white - approached the gate from the other side. The driver's door opened. Out stepped a middle-aged man with a potbelly and a wavy mess of dark hair. The man waved, jogged a few feet up to the gatehouse, punched in four digits, smiling over at them. The gate swung up, and Michael waited for the man to get back into his car before following him down a path that he hadn't seen, back toward the house with the light"

Another interesting passage from the book that sheds light on the timeline and how long SG's date out at Oak Beach lasted before she disappeared:

"Just before five A.M., the john tapped on the window of Michael Pak's Explorer.
'Can you get her out?'
'What?'
'She won't leave'
The john, Joe Brewer, didn't seem angry or scared - just polite, if a little impatient.
Michael and Shannon had done a few Long Island calls, but not Oak Beach. The appointment was for two hours, which made it worth their while. Even if they missed calls while they were out there, it made sense for them to go out there for three hundred dollars - or more if she could extend the date.
And Shannon did. They were in their third hour when Brewer came out to get Michael.......But Brewer seemed pretty relaxed about it. Michael guessed that he had done this a lot. Brewer was game"

Apologies if this has all been brought up before.
Have not had the time to comb through all of the threads.
By the way, Kolker's book is well worth the read.

Thank you for this great detailed post. No need to apologize for bring things up you'd like discussed. Thank you for taking the time, thought and interest, ObsessedNightOwl. I'm sure sleuthers will welcome considering your thoughts on this.

I reckon Brewer and Hackett and possibly Bisset are part of some sort of sex ring.
I think that Brewer provided the location and Hackett provided the drugs for the party. The night that Shannon vabished I believe she was drugged by Brewer. As the drugs took effect I think possibly Shannon over heard or was told directly what was going to happen to her. Maybe adrenaline brought Shannon round enough to make a call to 911 which panicked Brewer. This all relies on the idea that Brewer didnt knw until Shannon blurted that her driver was outside but I believe after the phone call and realising Shannon had a driver Brewer rushed out to get Micheal Pak to get rid of her.
Shannon took off and I believe got lost o the marsh and died from exposure.
but Hackett and Brewer werent to know that.
I think they panicked and Hackett called Shannons mother fishing to see if Shannon had returned home and tried to cover the drugging by saying he had treated her.
When shannon didnt turn up then he recanted his statement and denied even making the calls.
Bisset could have been a possible member of the sex parties and suplied the berlap sacks some of the bodies were discovered in. Under the mounting pressure of the discoveries or maybe guilt he commited suicide.
All men know the area well enough to know the bodies wouldnt be discovered. I think they've been having numerous sex parties and eventually it led to murder. Is that so far fetched?...afterall there are peadophile rings out there.

Thank you Aidie, for joining Websleuths and for sharing this scenario of what you think went down. Interesting to hear what Josh and Rachel have discussed in "The Killing Season" on the threads, on Tricia's Websleuth Radio and elsewhere in regards to this popular idea of what happened. I hope you have a chance to take a look. I appreciate your great post outlining the scenario and hope you continue to post.

 

[Salsa]

I read a few articles last night and someone kept mentioning a man who used to own Vimeo Videos also made snuff films of these women at a plant that had burlap sack material, a material plant. Has anyone else heard about this theory?