One Killer or More?

[hawkshaw]

I just never thought the LISK was really the work of a serial killer in the sense it is often defined.

 

[JonDoe297]

I do believe 6 out of the 10 sets of remains belonged to the LISK. The Gilgo 4, Jessica Taylor and Jane Doe#6 now identified as Valerie Mack all fit the victim profile. All seemingly were 5' or under, all weighed about 100lbs. and all were escorts/sex workers and easily targeted.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I do believe 6 out of the 10 sets of remains belonged to the LISK. The Gilgo 4, Jessica Taylor and Jane Doe#6 now identified as Valerie Mack all fit the victim profile. All seemingly were 5' or under, all weighed about 100lbs. and all were escorts/sex workers and easily targeted.

Megan Waterman was 5 foot 5 and weighed 140 lbs.

 

[airportwoman]

I believe that there are at least 2 perpetrators, mainly because of the Asian male victim. I think he just happened to have been dumped in the same general location, by someone else.

 

[karmaskiss01]

Gonna ramble...

I don’t take my eyes off of Bittrolf in saying this but..

Most times I think it’s a group or at the very least this group knows what 1 person within the group is doing and in this truth coming out they all go down for filth.
Sometimes I think it’s 1 because of the proximity of the bodies & how JT & VM were partially on Ocean Parkway & partially in Manorville. Baby doe being on Ocean Parkway near VM & mother peaches being elsewhere.

The bodies placements, to me, seem like a deliberate set up to try and confuse LE, kind of like how LISK made those calls from Times Square to muddy the waters. Disarming the women making them leave their phones and go to him/them. He/they are calculated and possibly just got very cocky over time.

I do agree that the GB4 going missing back to back makes it seem like someone else but I can’t help but wonder if something set him off in his own life to change his MO. Or if he/they were simply like “well they haven’t found all the others so..”

Asian Male Doe - without an identity we are not sure what year they went missing so this murder could explain perhaps a time slot that we might mistakenly consider “a break” LISK took between VM JT & GB4.

Coincidences exist but with all of the shady players here and all of the murdered sex workers after all of these years...it really starts to smell like a group thing to me. I understand Shannan’s death was different but she also called 911 and her situation played out differently so we can’t discard her when she literally said “THEY” are trying to kill me and so many of us believe it is possibly a group thing to begin with.

The ULTIMATE “woah” to me would be if someone found a way to connect Bittrolf to Hackett, Burke, Brewer or Bissett. Either being acquaintances, being a part of some club, or maybe Bittrolf being a carpenter worked for one of them at some point? Who knows. Purely speculating here.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

In my opinion, the GB4 were all one serial killer. And this killer (LISK) doesn't dismember.

 

[hawkshaw]

In one of the recent shows it was mentioned the PD was going to examine the phone records of all the possible players. Do you mean to tell me that hasn’t been done already?

 

[hawkshaw]

You folks may not realize it but the fall of Burke and Spota etc. was in large measure brought down by disaffected members of SCPD. Without them this would have never happened

 

[Curious2017]

Gonna ramble...

I don’t take my eyes off of Bittrolf in saying this but..

Most times I think it’s a group or at the very least this group knows what 1 person within the group is doing and in this truth coming out they all go down for filth.
Sometimes I think it’s 1 because of the proximity of the bodies & how JT & VM were partially on Ocean Parkway & partially in Manorville. Baby doe being on Ocean Parkway near VM & mother peaches being elsewhere.

The bodies placements, to me, seem like a deliberate set up to try and confuse LE, kind of like how LISK made those calls from Times Square to muddy the waters. Disarming the women making them leave their phones and go to him/them. He/they are calculated and possibly just got very cocky over time.

I do agree that the GB4 going missing back to back makes it seem like someone else but I can’t help but wonder if something set him off in his own life to change his MO. Or if he/they were simply like “well they haven’t found all the others so..”

Asian Male Doe - without an identity we are not sure what year they went missing so this murder could explain perhaps a time slot that we might mistakenly consider “a break” LISK took between VM JT & GB4.

Coincidences exist but with all of the shady players here and all of the murdered sex workers after all of these years...it really starts to smell like a group thing to me. I understand Shannan’s death was different but she also called 911 and her situation played out differently so we can’t discard her when she literally said “THEY” are trying to kill me and so many of us believe it is possibly a group thing to begin with.

The ULTIMATE “woah” to me would be if someone found a way to connect Bittrolf to Hackett, Burke, Brewer or Bissett. Either being acquaintances, being a part of some club, or maybe Bittrolf being a carpenter worked for one of them at some point? Who knows. Purely speculating here.

I agree with the thought that there are serial killers on LI that know each other. I dont feel that they necessarily "work" together or communicate, but know what the other is up to or likes to do. I also dont think they are competing or anything like that, but unknowingly were helping each other complicate the situation for LE. Bitrolff has most definitely been on my radar for various reasons, but I dont think hes LISK. IMO he is responsible for more murders and bodies, but I think there are maybe 2 or 3 SK's that are responsible for all the murders on OP, and its possible they do know each other!

 

[karmaskiss01]

I agree with the thought that there are serial killers on LI that know each other. I dont feel that they necessarily "work" together or communicate, but know what the other is up to or likes to do. I also dont think they are competing or anything like that, but unknowingly were helping each other complicate the situation for LE. Bitrolff has most definitely been on my radar for various reasons, but I dont think hes LISK. IMO he is responsible for more murders and bodies, but I think there are maybe 2 or 3 SK's that are responsible for all the murders on OP, and its possible they do know each other!

I forgot to add to my post that one of the things that I wonder about the most in terms of a “group” is the whole snuff/torture film making theory.

Melissa B was supposedly held(basing off the calls alone) for a while and not immediately killed, and I believe I heard long ago there was some way they could tell that GB4 were all held for some time? correct me if I’m wrong. If this were true, then they were “held” somewhere else before they were killed and dumped on OP. The question is where.

It doesn’t sit right with me that Brewer had these crazy parties with all of these high ranking buddies with sex workers - one ran out claiming more than one person wanted to kill her and ended up dead amongst so many others with similar lifestyles to her. It’s just too much coincidence for me. Wasn’t it stated that Bissett was also a client of Shannan’s? I believe it was on the LISK podcast that they said Shannan had told her friend she was “breaking into the wealthy market” is anyone else remembering this too?

This entire group of men is just too fishy to me. They all have acted suspiciously in their own way since.

Bittrolf and GB4 - can anyone confirm the below?

from John Bittrolf wikipedia page:

“A further link between Bittrolff and the Long Island Serial Killer case has been established: the adult daughter of one of Bittrolff's victims, Rita Tangredi, was reportedly "best friends" with Melissa Barthelemy, one of the first LISK victims discovered at Gilgo Beach. Melissa Barthelemy's mother also reported that Melissa "had a lot of calls to Manorville from her phone" at the time.”

Someone here on Websleuths said that Melissa’s pimp/bf said she had a client named John(and I realize that’s as common of a name as it gets but..)

This is why I think it’s possible Bittrolf is responsible for GB4 too if true. It would mean he likely stalked Melissa beforehand.

I wish we knew more about John Bittrolf as a whole.

 

[GrayShadow]

Karma - A couple of my posts from another thread.

GROUPINGS

Between December 2010 and December 2011, eleven sets of remains (or partial remains) were discovered on Jones Island. The last remains were those of SG. These remains can be initially grouped into five separate fragments based on (dis)similarities for initial investigation.

A. Baby Doe because she is the only child;
B. Asian male because it is the only set of male remains;
C. ALC, MB, MBB and MW because their remains were all (reported) to have been wrapped in burlap;
D. Four sets of partial remains, and;
E. SG because she almost got away.

FRAGMENT A: Initially, Baby Doe could have simply been an abandoned child. Later DNA testing proved that Baby Doe was the child of one of the partial remains on Jones Island. It is not a stretch to assume baby Doe was with “mom” at the time of her demise. It is logical to add Baby Doe to FRAGMENT D (with her mother).

FRAGMENT B: The only male remains. Dressed in women’s clothes. Might have been advertising as an escort. Might have just been picked up ‘at the bar’. Might have been killed after true sex was discovered. Variously reported as “teeth removed” or “poor dental health”. To date, no DNA identification. Not enough detail available to the public to work with.

FRAGMENT C: The easiest. All four remains were reported “wrapped in burlap” placed within 1500 feet of each other. There were no reports that these victims were dismembered or that they were partial remain. All four disappeared within two years of each other. All Craigslist/Backpage escorts. Various revelations of “leave your cellphone behind”, “client is trustworthy”, “high paying client” and “don’t want/need a driver either way.” These were ‘newer’ and ‘intact’ victims. High likelihood they are victims of the same perpetrator(s).

FRAGMENT D: These four sets of remains began as unknowns. All four were dismembered with only partial remains on Jones Beach. Two were linked to partial remains previously found in Manorville and ultimately identified as VM and JT. Another matched partial to remains found on Blue Point Beach and referred to as Fire Island Jane Doe. The last set were matched to remains found previously in Rockville Center and known to be ‘Peaches’. It is further determined Peaches was the mother of Baby Doe. The first remains of these four victims were found in 1996 (two victims), 1997 and 2003. The Jones Beach remains had been in place for as long as 14 years prior to discovery. These are ‘older’ crimes.

FRAGMENT E: This piece is unique because it was relatively fresh and afforded a lot of investigatory promise because of witnesses, testimony, 911 tapes, dispatch tapes/logs, phone records, security video. For all intent and purpose, this case had a wealth of evidence not available to LE regarding the other ‘older’ victims recently discovered.

Some, or all, or none of these fragments (B through D) may or may not be related.

WHAT IF?

What if SG was an accident? Not saying that her “death” was an accident, but the “location” was an accident? If this incident had occurred somewhere else (say Nassau County or just about anywhere else in Suffolk County), how would it have been investigated? A fearful woman banging on doors, screaming “they’re trying to kill me”. It quite likely would have been investigated accordingly and come to resolution long ago. But that did not happen with SG. I believe the SG investigation, such as it was, was hampered from the very beginning due to two factors.

First, LE knew early on it was dealing with an escort. JB was candid with LE about his ‘involvement’ with her that immediate morning. Unfortunately, LE was not particularly interested in a missing escort, especially hearing from GC of the Asian man in the SUV looking for her as well. “He was probably her pimp, picked her up and they are long gone now. There’s nothing left to investigate.” Or so they thought May 1. Even on May 3 when MP and JB went to Suffolk LE, there was understandably, still little interest. She was an adult, she was an escort, so she is probably just doing what she does.

Consider, LE received multiple 911 calls from OB residents at roughly 5:30am on May 1 reporting a frantic woman. Then on May 3, JB (SG’s client) AD (SG’s ‘roommate’) go to LE and state SG is still missing. That conversation likely included AD indicating SG’s driver (MP) left the area without her. That would logically rule out the supposed ‘pimp driver’ having helped her leave the area.

Second, the incident involving an already known to be escort happened in Suffolk County on Jones Beach Island. As the ‘missing escort on Jones Beach Island’ began to circulate in SCPD, I believe panic began to rise among certain LE. A full and legitimate investigation extending beyond Oak Beach might be particularly damaging.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I agree with the thought that there are serial killers on LI that know each other. I dont feel that they necessarily "work" together or communicate, but know what the other is up to or likes to do. I also dont think they are competing or anything like that, but unknowingly were helping each other complicate the situation for LE. Bitrolff has most definitely been on my radar for various reasons, but I dont think hes LISK. IMO he is responsible for more murders and bodies, but I think there are maybe 2 or 3 SK's that are responsible for all the murders on OP, and its possible they do know each other!

I so agree with you, Curious ! I stay open to all possibilities (for the most part), but one thing I have always been absolutely sure of from the start is that LISK does not dismember. And while I wouldn't necessarily put dismembering out of reach for Bittrolff, he didn't know any of these women...so why try to hinder their identity by scattering body parts and eradicating tattoos ? I also can't get it out of my mind that it wasn't only human body parts found in Manorville...we also have chickens and dogs. What do prostitutes, chickens and dogs have in common ? Gangs. Or at the very least, underground money. And if pimp x had to dispose of a prostitute, and if pimp z had to dispose of a prostitute (or a bunch of dogs or fighting chickens ) it would not surprise me at all if they chose the same dumping ground and the same method. They run together until they don't, but they know the game the same, know what I mean ?

 

[Curious2017]

I so agree with you, Curious ! I stay open to all possibilities (for the most part), but one thing I have always been absolutely sure of from the start is that LISK does not dismember. And while I wouldn't necessarily put dismembering out of reach for Bittrolff, he didn't know any of these women...so why try to hinder their identity by scattering body parts and eradicating tattoos ? I also can't get it out of my mind that it wasn't only human body parts found in Manorville...we also have chickens and dogs. What do prostitutes, chickens and dogs have in common ? Gangs. Or at the very least, underground money. And if pimp x had to dispose of a prostitute, and if pimp z had to dispose of a prostitute (or a bunch of dogs or fighting chickens ) it would not surprise me at all if they chose the same dumping ground and the same method. They run together until they don't, but they know the game the same, know what I mean ?

Thats a really good point! I didnt know that about the animal parts being found out there, but it does remind me of something else. I did read something about Bitrolff saying that he would go into the woods and mutilate deer and once ate a raw heart. who does that??? Could 100% be a made up rumor, but there could be truth to it. If he would do it to an animal and has already killed other women, maybe dismemberment is not out of the realm of possibilities imo. On season 2 of the LISK podcast (hopefully coming out soon) there is supposedly an interview with him and his wife as well. I literally cannot wait for that.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Thats a really good point! I didnt know that about the animal parts being found out there, but it does remind me of something else. I did read something about Bitrolff saying that he would go into the woods and mutilate deer and once ate a raw heart. who does that??? Could 100% be a made up rumor, but there could be truth to it. If he would do it to an animal and has already killed other women, maybe dismemberment is not out of the realm of possibilities imo. On season 2 of the LISK podcast (hopefully coming out soon) there is supposedly an interview with him and his wife as well. I literally cannot wait for that.

Not animal parts. Piles of dead animals. I dunno...dog fighting and chicken fighting is the first thing that came to my mind. It's not like those kinds of people take a fatally damaged, or in their mind, worthless , fighting animals to the vet.

(I'll see if I can track down those posts for you...it was years and years ago, so might take me a hot minute. )

 

[Mountain_Kat]

That conversation starts here, Curious. Bizarre Manorville news

 

[Curious2017]

@Mountain_Kat I couldnt help but be sad while reading all of those old comments, that here we are in 2020 and still have no justice for all the murdered and unidentified. Nonetheless, very bizarre news indeed.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

@Mountain_Kat I couldnt help but be sad while reading all of those old comments, that here we are in 2020 and still have no justice for all the murdered and unidentified. Nonetheless, very bizarre news indeed.

I feel exactly the same way, Curious. It makes me sad that I have been parked here for 10 years now, and STILL no one has been made to answer for these crimes. Not a day goes by that I don't think of Missy, and Sherre, and Loraine , and Lynn , and Amanda , and Kim , and every single day that passes, my heart breaks for them.

 

[Manwel]

I do agree that the GB4 going missing back to back makes it seem like someone else but I can’t help but wonder if something set him off in his own life to change his MO. Or if he/they were simply like “well they haven’t found all the others so..”

Asian Male Doe - without an identity we are not sure what year they went missing so this murder could explain perhaps a time slot that we might mistakenly consider “a break” LISK took between VM JT & GB4.

In my opinion, the GB4 were all one serial killer. And this killer (LISK) doesn't dismember.

So here's the thing about MO vs. signature. FBI profiling refers to signature when it comes to LISK picking women who are all the same size, the same look, the same profession, and then whatever the killer gets out of these murders, whatever drive exists to hurt these women. This is his signature. It has been said that he "choked" the Gilgo 4 victims, so this would be part of his signature. But how he disposes of bodies may be done out of convenience and isn't tied to the signature. So the MO can change rapidly, as in the case of Zodiac switching from shooting to stabbing and back to shooting (because his signature was harassing the media and police and creating panic, that's what he got off on).

So for LISK, the ritual and signature are who he is picking, what he does to them when they're captured, and any gratification he gets after the fact, such as the documented contact with Barthélemy's sister (which ended after news media revealed it was occurring). But the disposal wouldn't necessarily be part of it. There's no staging or posing so there's no ritualistic connection, as in the way Bittrolff apparently posed his victims. Which suggests Bittrolff is not connected to the Gilgo 4 or the dismembered bodies.

So if we believe all of the Gilgo/Manorville bodies are the same killer, we have two different MOs in play: dismembering (early victims only, all nude, no clothing, some jewelry included with Peaches and Baby Doe) and intact in burlap with Gilgo 4 (nude, no clothing, no jewelry). What unites them is they were all placed in the same areas, all identified victims were all known Craigslist workers, and in the case of VM and JT and the Gilgo victims, their similar ages and appearance are part of the signature. (Peaches, uniquely, does not match, which makes you wonder if Peaches could have been a witness rather than a target. The fact that a child was involved lends itself to that theory. Asian Doe is also uniquely disconnected from the signature and was found wearing clothing with blunt force trauma to the face. I am comfortable putting Asian Doe aside and not including them in the official list of LISK victims for now.)

For those thinking there are two separate killers, consider this: If all the dismembered victims plus Baby Doe (1996-2003) were a separate killer not linked to Gilgo 4 (2007-2010), then that, to me, would indicate their remains were placed by the dismemberment killer in the same location as the Gilgo 4 after the Gilgo 4 were discovered in December 2010. Because all of the dismembered remains around Gilgo were not found until April 2011, a few months later. So either it's the same killer for all, another killer who saw the news about the 2010 remains and moved remains to the same location to confuse police, or there were two killers who managed to pick the same 3-mile stretch of remote beach highway to dispose of bodies in all of Long Island. (The idea that two separate unlinked killers picked the same remote stretch of beach is just impossible to me. And I just can't imagine a killer would think, "I am going to move old remains nobody knows about to this location that police have been watching closely.") **I admit it's possible at least two killers know each other and are sharing the same dump site, but you would expect overlapping MOs at the same time, not separate MOs during completely different periods of time. My only allowance there is some kind of generational thing, like a weird father-son team. But again. That's a big leap in guessing.**

This is why I believe Peaches, Baby Doe, Jane Doe 7, VM, and JT were all killed by the same person who killed the Gilgo 4. My assumption is that the MO changed because it had to. Perhaps he no longer had access to a private space to dismember victims? Perhaps he discovered dismembering created too much evidence or was too hard to clean up? Or what if he knew after a while that remains he had placed at Gilgo Beach were not getting discovered as quickly as remains elsewhere, so he decided that area was remote enough to dispose of a whole victim? One body and one dump would be safer than finding places to leave multiple body parts. As FBI profilers learned from the criminals they spoke to, criminals learn to perfect what they do.

I don't think it's coincidence that the victims went missing in the summer months. Even police initially suspected that Valerie Mack's Manorville remains had been dumped in September of 2000. You could infer that the killer takes the same vacation time from work each year, or maybe their job is seasonal in some way and they only spend time in this area in the summer months. Could he be a teacher? A number of things could explain the summer pattern, but there is clear evidence among Gilgo 4 of ritualistic, anniversary-like killing. If anniversary killing was something they were trying to achieve, it makes you wonder if there are any missing sex workers from summer of 2008? That's a gap year in terms of victims. You might also ask the same question of 2004, 2005, and 2006.

Dismemberment suggests he had a private location or space in the mid-90s to 2003 where he would not be disturbed. There's also reason to suggest he was unattached romantically at the time, because anyone live-in would be a threat to discovery. From the change in MO, you could infer that the killer's life circumstances changed between 2003 and 2007. Perhaps he moved in with someone, had a child with someone, changed homes, or no longer had private access to a separate space/residence. This new MO of using Gilgo Beach as a single dump site was maintained over a period of three years: Brainard-Barnes went missing July 9, 2007; Barthélemy went missing July 10, 2009 (notice this is a two-year anniversary, which suggests ritual, reliving a previous crime, thus signature); Megan Waterman missing June 6, 2010 (one month and a few days shy of another anniversary); and Amber Costello went missing just a few months later on September 2, 2010.

The fact that he still hasn't been caught begs the question: What has he been doing since summer 2010? Presumably, the murders stopped because his primary dump site was discovered. Did he stop altogether out of fear of media and police attention or did he simply change his dump site again? Did he move? Has he been caught for a different crime? As of 2020, Peaches' skull has not been found. Jane Doe 7's skull and legs are all that have been recovered of her. This leads me to suspect he has another dump site that hasn't been found, or Hempstead Lake State Park and Fire Island haven't been searched well enough. I would want to know more about any sex workers gone missing between summer 2011 and now, where they have been found, and in what condition.

Now that it's 2020, it's been 13 years of getting away with his crimes after they were discovered. I would be concerned that a killer like this would be emboldened by not getting caught rather than anxious. Which leads me to believe he has killed since 2010 and we just don't know it yet.

 

[karmaskiss01]

So here's the thing about MO vs. signature. FBI profiling refers to signature when it comes to LISK picking women who are all the same size, the same look, the same profession, and then whatever the killer gets out of these murders, whatever drive exists to hurt these women. This is his signature. It has been said that he "choked" the Gilgo 4 victims, so this would be part of his signature. But how he disposes of bodies may be done out of convenience and isn't tied to the signature. So the MO can change rapidly, as in the case of Zodiac switching from shooting to stabbing and back to shooting (because his signature was harassing the media and police and creating panic, that's what he got off on).

So for LISK, the ritual and signature are who he is picking, what he does to them when they're captured, and any gratification he gets after the fact, such as the documented contact with Barthélemy's sister (which ended after news media revealed it was occurring). But the disposal wouldn't necessarily be part of it. There's no staging or posing so there's no ritualistic connection, as in the way Bittrolff apparently posed his victims. Which suggests Bittrolff is not connected to the Gilgo 4 or the dismembered bodies.

So if we believe all of the Gilgo/Manorville bodies are the same killer, we have two different MOs in play: dismembering (early victims only, all nude, no clothing, some jewelry included with Peaches and Baby Doe) and intact in burlap with Gilgo 4 (nude, no clothing, no jewelry). What unites them is they were all placed in the same areas, all identified victims were all known Craigslist workers, and in the case of VM and JT and the Gilgo victims, their similar ages and appearance are part of the signature. (Peaches, uniquely, does not match, which makes you wonder if Peaches could have been a witness rather than a target. The fact that a child was involved lends itself to that theory. Asian Doe is also uniquely disconnected from the signature and was found wearing clothing with blunt force trauma to the face. I am comfortable putting Asian Doe aside and not including them in the official list of LISK victims for now.)

For those thinking there are two separate killers, consider this: If all the dismembered victims plus Baby Doe (1996-2003) were a separate killer not linked to Gilgo 4 (2007-2010), then that, to me, would indicate their remains were placed by the dismemberment killer in the same location as the Gilgo 4 after the Gilgo 4 were discovered in December 2010. Because all of the dismembered remains around Gilgo were not found until April 2011, a few months later. So either it's the same killer for all, another killer who saw the news about the 2010 remains and moved remains to the same location to confuse police, or there were two killers who managed to pick the same 3-mile stretch of remote beach highway to dispose of bodies in all of Long Island. (The idea that two separate unlinked killers picked the same remote stretch of beach is just impossible to me. And I just can't imagine a killer would think, "I am going to move old remains nobody knows about to this location that police have been watching closely.") **I admit it's possible at least two killers know each other and are sharing the same dump site, but you would expect overlapping MOs at the same time, not separate MOs during completely different periods of time. My only allowance there is some kind of generational thing, like a weird father-son team. But again. That's a big leap in guessing.**

This is why I believe Peaches, Baby Doe, Jane Doe 7, VM, and JT were all killed by the same person who killed the Gilgo 4. My assumption is that the MO changed because it had to. Perhaps he no longer had access to a private space to dismember victims? Perhaps he discovered dismembering created too much evidence or was too hard to clean up? Or what if he knew after a while that remains he had placed at Gilgo Beach were not getting discovered as quickly as remains elsewhere, so he decided that area was remote enough to dispose of a whole victim? One body and one dump would be safer than finding places to leave multiple body parts. As FBI profilers learned from the criminals they spoke to, criminals learn to perfect what they do.

I don't think it's coincidence that the victims went missing in the summer months. Even police initially suspected that Valerie Mack's Manorville remains had been dumped in September of 2000. You could infer that the killer takes the same vacation time from work each year, or maybe their job is seasonal in some way and they only spend time in this area in the summer months. Could he be a teacher? A number of things could explain the summer pattern, but there is clear evidence among Gilgo 4 of ritualistic, anniversary-like killing. If anniversary killing was something they were trying to achieve, it makes you wonder if there are any missing sex workers from summer of 2008? That's a gap year in terms of victims. You might also ask the same question of 2004, 2005, and 2006.

Dismemberment suggests he had a private location or space in the mid-90s to 2003 where he would not be disturbed. There's also reason to suggest he was unattached romantically at the time, because anyone live-in would be a threat to discovery. From the change in MO, you could infer that the killer's life circumstances changed between 2003 and 2007. Perhaps he moved in with someone, had a child with someone, changed homes, or no longer had private access to a separate space/residence. This new MO of using Gilgo Beach as a single dump site was maintained over a period of three years: Brainard-Barnes went missing July 9, 2007; Barthélemy went missing July 10, 2009 (notice this is a two-year anniversary, which suggests ritual, reliving a previous crime, thus signature); Megan Waterman missing June 6, 2010 (one month and a few days shy of another anniversary); and Amber Costello went missing just a few months later on September 2, 2010.

The fact that he still hasn't been caught begs the question: What has he been doing since summer 2010? Presumably, the murders stopped because his primary dump site was discovered. Did he stop altogether out of fear of media and police attention or did he simply change his dump site again? Did he move? Has he been caught for a different crime? As of 2020, Peaches' skull has not been found. Jane Doe 7's skull and legs are all that have been recovered of her. This leads me to suspect he has another dump site that hasn't been found, or Hempstead Lake State Park and Fire Island haven't been searched well enough. I would want to know more about any sex workers gone missing between summer 2011 and now, where they have been found, and in what condition.

Now that it's 2020, it's been 13 years of getting away with his crimes after they were discovered. I would be concerned that a killer like this would be emboldened by not getting caught rather than anxious. Which leads me to believe he has killed since 2010 and we just don't know it yet.

Very good observations. I actually totally agree that I think all or at least most of these bodies are linked to the same killer/s.

Personally, I find it to be way too much coincidence that Peaches child was found on OP near Valerie Mack- and Valerie Mack AND Jessica Taylor were partially on OP and partially in Manorville.

You bring up an interesting question- where are the rest of their remains? Fire Island Jane Doe & Peaches are incomplete and this killer has a habit of spreading his victim’s remains to more than one(in this case possibly more than 2) locations..
Hm...
Isn’t Cherries incomplete also?

The way Peaches was disposed of if I’m not mistaken was in like a rubbermaid storage container right? She even had a towel(?) in there also almost like it was a more rushed thing. That makes me wonder if finding her identity would blow the whole case wide open.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

So here's the thing about MO vs. signature. FBI profiling refers to signature when it comes to LISK picking women who are all the same size, the same look, the same profession, and then whatever the killer gets out of these murders, whatever drive exists to hurt these women. This is his signature. It has been said that he "choked" the Gilgo 4 victims, so this would be part of his signature. But how he disposes of bodies may be done out of convenience and isn't tied to the signature. So the MO can change rapidly, as in the case of Zodiac switching from shooting to stabbing and back to shooting (because his signature was harassing the media and police and creating panic, that's what he got off on).

So for LISK, the ritual and signature are who he is picking, what he does to them when they're captured, and any gratification he gets after the fact, such as the documented contact with Barthélemy's sister (which ended after news media revealed it was occurring). But the disposal wouldn't necessarily be part of it. There's no staging or posing so there's no ritualistic connection, as in the way Bittrolff apparently posed his victims. Which suggests Bittrolff is not connected to the Gilgo 4 or the dismembered bodies.

So if we believe all of the Gilgo/Manorville bodies are the same killer, we have two different MOs in play: dismembering (early victims only, all nude, no clothing, some jewelry included with Peaches and Baby Doe) and intact in burlap with Gilgo 4 (nude, no clothing, no jewelry). What unites them is they were all placed in the same areas, all identified victims were all known Craigslist workers, and in the case of VM and JT and the Gilgo victims, their similar ages and appearance are part of the signature. (Peaches, uniquely, does not match, which makes you wonder if Peaches could have been a witness rather than a target. The fact that a child was involved lends itself to that theory. Asian Doe is also uniquely disconnected from the signature and was found wearing clothing with blunt force trauma to the face. I am comfortable putting Asian Doe aside and not including them in the official list of LISK victims for now.)

For those thinking there are two separate killers, consider this: If all the dismembered victims plus Baby Doe (1996-2003) were a separate killer not linked to Gilgo 4 (2007-2010), then that, to me, would indicate their remains were placed by the dismemberment killer in the same location as the Gilgo 4 after the Gilgo 4 were discovered in December 2010. Because all of the dismembered remains around Gilgo were not found until April 2011, a few months later. So either it's the same killer for all, another killer who saw the news about the 2010 remains and moved remains to the same location to confuse police, or there were two killers who managed to pick the same 3-mile stretch of remote beach highway to dispose of bodies in all of Long Island. (The idea that two separate unlinked killers picked the same remote stretch of beach is just impossible to me. And I just can't imagine a killer would think, "I am going to move old remains nobody knows about to this location that police have been watching closely.") **I admit it's possible at least two killers know each other and are sharing the same dump site, but you would expect overlapping MOs at the same time, not separate MOs during completely different periods of time. My only allowance there is some kind of generational thing, like a weird father-son team. But again. That's a big leap in guessing.**

This is why I believe Peaches, Baby Doe, Jane Doe 7, VM, and JT were all killed by the same person who killed the Gilgo 4. My assumption is that the MO changed because it had to. Perhaps he no longer had access to a private space to dismember victims? Perhaps he discovered dismembering created too much evidence or was too hard to clean up? Or what if he knew after a while that remains he had placed at Gilgo Beach were not getting discovered as quickly as remains elsewhere, so he decided that area was remote enough to dispose of a whole victim? One body and one dump would be safer than finding places to leave multiple body parts. As FBI profilers learned from the criminals they spoke to, criminals learn to perfect what they do.

I don't think it's coincidence that the victims went missing in the summer months. Even police initially suspected that Valerie Mack's Manorville remains had been dumped in September of 2000. You could infer that the killer takes the same vacation time from work each year, or maybe their job is seasonal in some way and they only spend time in this area in the summer months. Could he be a teacher? A number of things could explain the summer pattern, but there is clear evidence among Gilgo 4 of ritualistic, anniversary-like killing. If anniversary killing was something they were trying to achieve, it makes you wonder if there are any missing sex workers from summer of 2008? That's a gap year in terms of victims. You might also ask the same question of 2004, 2005, and 2006.

Dismemberment suggests he had a private location or space in the mid-90s to 2003 where he would not be disturbed. There's also reason to suggest he was unattached romantically at the time, because anyone live-in would be a threat to discovery. From the change in MO, you could infer that the killer's life circumstances changed between 2003 and 2007. Perhaps he moved in with someone, had a child with someone, changed homes, or no longer had private access to a separate space/residence. This new MO of using Gilgo Beach as a single dump site was maintained over a period of three years: Brainard-Barnes went missing July 9, 2007; Barthélemy went missing July 10, 2009 (notice this is a two-year anniversary, which suggests ritual, reliving a previous crime, thus signature); Megan Waterman missing June 6, 2010 (one month and a few days shy of another anniversary); and Amber Costello went missing just a few months later on September 2, 2010.

The fact that he still hasn't been caught begs the question: What has he been doing since summer 2010? Presumably, the murders stopped because his primary dump site was discovered. Did he stop altogether out of fear of media and police attention or did he simply change his dump site again? Did he move? Has he been caught for a different crime? As of 2020, Peaches' skull has not been found. Jane Doe 7's skull and legs are all that have been recovered of her. This leads me to suspect he has another dump site that hasn't been found, or Hempstead Lake State Park and Fire Island haven't been searched well enough. I would want to know more about any sex workers gone missing between summer 2011 and now, where they have been found, and in what condition.

Now that it's 2020, it's been 13 years of getting away with his crimes after they were discovered. I would be concerned that a killer like this would be emboldened by not getting caught rather than anxious. Which leads me to believe he has killed since 2010 and we just don't know it yet.

I agree with some of what you said, but I have spent 10 years getting to know LISK. In my view, he does not dismember. He's a collector. Having these 4 bodies laid out in a trophy case where he can ride by them several times a day, is important to him. It prolongs his feeling of power...over their remains ("I'm going to watch her rot")...but also over all these other stupid people who ride past his work and don't even have a clue.

I'm okay with people thinking LISK dismembers, I simply strongly disagree with that.