OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #14

[Ms Suzanne]

Here's KPTV's video of him:
http://www.kptv.com/video/23842579/index.html

Here's KOIN's video of him:
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/n...te-noticed-Horman/TVY3YTREG0SyCP3tb3MkZg.cspx

I understood the 2nd video to say Tanner said Kyrons step mother left the building with out Kyron.I did not take that to mean he saw her drive away.

 

[Kimster]

I have one comment about the 8:45 timeline. Since that is the official start to the school day, surely that is when attendance was taken- and Kyron was marked absent.
The kids had to assemble in their classroom to be sorted into the touring groups of 5 or 6, and that would have been the only logical time to call the roll (if they still do it that way!).
So Kyron never made it to the classroom at all that day.
If he was there then, he wouldn't have been marked absent. If he was there then, the "where is Kyron?" question would have been raised at 10am or so.
He can't have been marked present at 8:45 and absent later on. He must have disappeared within a few brief minutes after SM waved to him. It doesn't make sense that he would wander around the halls and never go to his classroom during the 8:45-9:00 period.

(Speaking of calling the roll, were any of you the kind of kid who pompously said, Present, rather than Here? I'm afraid I was! Then it became majorly cool to say Yo! rather than here.)

EXACTLY what my district admin friend was asking me! WHEN was the roll call done? Was the school considered open at the regular time that day? If so, they should have had roll call. If the official day was later because of the special event, then roll call would be taken later.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Would be extremely surprised if SM (Terri) were a POI. I imagine that she has thoroughly accounted for her whereabouts and the LE are satisfied. Otherwise, why would mom Desiree be holding her hand during that PC? I for damn sure wouldn't be holding the hand of the person responsible for my child when he disappeared if she had a weak alibi!

Would you still feel that way if you desperately wanted to find your child and only this person knew where he was?

 

[Catters]

I am still confused (and will always be confused) as to how no red flags were raised given Kyron was AT SCHOOL that morning. Surely someone saw him...when he didn't return, I'm shocked that no one noticed he was gone. If he'd never shown up at all, I guess that would be more understandable; but, his coat was there, bookbag was there, SCIENCE PROJECT was set up....and kids saw him in the hall. Was there no one who would question where he was??? I guess, even after seeing postings on this, I still just don't get it.

I am a teacher, by the way, and just don't understand this one at all.

It's almost like there's a 'Duhhh' *facepalm* right there... a no brainer, if you will, but yet, it didn't raise any flags... I'm right there with you, Twzzlrgirl.

If a child shows up to class (even if it's for 2 minutes to put down a coat and bookbag) then magically disappears for an extended amount of time, I have to say, more than red flags would go off for me. Just.. odd... here sits their "stuff" but where in the world are they, where'd they go!? Even returning from lunch and STILL no child ... Idk.... strange, imo.

 

[DairyGirl]

But the school can and should make the person sign the child out. Even if TH did tell the teacher Kyron had an appointment and took him out (which I personally DO NOT believe right now), Desiree would be able to make a civil case against the school for not documenting it and for putting them through this hell.

B/c if Terri (or any other guardian) had signed him out, then there would be a very clear path to follow. They would have asked if anyone had seen Terri OR Kyron; they would have plastered her picture and pictures of her vehicles everywhere hoping someone might have seen her coming from a dump/stash site.

The fact that we haven't even seen her taken to the police station to be questioned or poly'd, IMHO, is a clear signal that LE is treating her like a victim, not a suspect, or even really a witness. And so should we unless that changes.
The school is absolutely still responsible for Kyron. It was in all likelihood a completely innocent mistake, maybe a series of mistakes, but it was the school's mistake.

I don't think the teacher still being in the classroom tells us anything. If it is determined that a series of miscommunications caused her to genuinely believe Terri had taken Kyron, then she will still feel horrible for the rest of her life but she will probably keep her job.

Just because we haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I would be willing to bet it has. All the family.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

It's almost like there's a 'Duhhh' *facepalm* right there... a no brainer, if you will, but yet, it didn't raise any flags... I'm right there with you, Twzzlrgirl.

If a child shows up to class (even if it's for 2 minutes to put down a coat and bookbag) then magically disappears for an extended amount of time, I have to say, more than red flags would go off for me. Just.. odd... here sits their "stuff" but where in the world are they, where'd they go!? Even returning from lunch and STILL no child ... Idk.... strange, imo.

continuing with your idea - we don't know that the school DIDN'T call SM to find out if Kyron was with her. By school I mean either someone in the office (if the teacher called the office ans asked if Kyron had been signed out) or the teacher herself tried to call her - she was very familar with the school and that class as we have seen all the activities she participated in. Maybe they did call and just got her voicemail - maybe not - we just don't know.

 

[Pensfan]

Would be extremely surprised if SM (Terri) were a POI. I imagine that she has thoroughly accounted for her whereabouts and the LE are satisfied. Otherwise, why would mom Desiree be holding her hand during that PC? I for damn sure wouldn't be holding the hand of the person responsible for my child when he disappeared if she had a weak alibi!

Please rewatch the video.
I cannot find anywhere during the press conference where Desiree held Terri’s hand. It was Terri putting her arm around Desiree. Desiree stood as frozen as an icicle holding her stomach as if she was going to vomit.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huW1p1RovQY[/ame]

This video shows when the couples actually walked into the room and Desiree was not holding Terri’s hand at that point either.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Media/parents-missing-kyron-horman-hope/story?id=10891582

 

[kgeaux]

Since we are on the topic of why LE would stay at a missing child's home during the investigation, I resubmit the following articles because they are relevant to this topic. This is another reason, PDXMom, why LE may stay at their home. When a paternal figure has murdered their child, there is a 50% chance that parent will commit suicide. I don't remember which of these articles provided this fact, but it is in one of them if you want to read them. Since everyone is a POI at this time, the parents would be included as POI. (I am not pointing fingers, but providing facts.)


http://people.uncw.edu/bruce/hon 2...nfanticide.pdf

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...A2Sley5kMM04DA

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...rw-zU3qkrpF6sg

http://www.unh.edu/sociology/media/p...helton2009.pdf

http://www.psy.cmu.edu/~rakison/dalywilson.pdf

Wow, I can't believe LE would stay at someone's home because they thought there might be a 50% chance that someone might commit suicide over something they may have done! :angel: Just joking, but that really would be a tremendous amount of funds spent on a "what if."

Just as an aside: I do not agree that everyone is a POI right now. A "person of interest" is a very qualified term used by LE to identify a person they are investigating with the suspicion that they may be involved. There are NO POI's in this case.

I'm a little confused as to whether attendance was taken once or twice. Reason I ask is because where my kids go to school, they are asked if they are eating a "cold" lunch (one brought from home) or a hot lunch (one ordered from the cafeteria) so that the lunch room employees could get lunches prepared in a timely manner.

In this case, wouldn't someone know he was expected to be around for lunch?

If the backpack was still there, was there a lunch packed?

In the school district I reside in, lunch is paid weekly, monthly, by semester or yearly. So nobody has to wonder from day to day who will be eating in the cafeteria......cafeteria employees know in advance how many meals to prepare.

Your question on attendance is interesting. We know that the woman identified as a substitute by Tanner was helping to see who was in the classroom after the children were "reassembled" in their class after visiting other classes to see projects. The fact that the "substitute" noticed Kyron hadn't made it back to the classroom makes me believe that she had seen Kyron earlier in the morning, because why else would she wonder why he wasn't in the classroom? Even the teacher's answer (he probably stopped off for water or the bathroom) leads me to believe the teacher was aware that Kyron had been in the school that morning.

Not even having anyone sign in is an open invitation to predators.

:cow:

Talk about! Schools over here do have the big, big signs out front announcing everything from inservice days to celebrations, etc. Anyone passing through could read the sign and decide to stop in, BUT they wouldn't make it very far past the front door without being confronted with a sign-in sheet!

I have such a weird feeling about this case and the cryptic PC's or at least very short PC's with no Q and A. Something just isn't right. I am just thinking they know something and are not saying. I don't feel like it has to do with family. I just feel like there is so much more going on here that we are not aware of. What could it be?

I would think that LE knows many things which haven't been released to the public. For one thing, it would hamper an investigation to throw all facts out for public consumption. However, I can't agree that the press conferences have been cryptic. They sound alot like other pc's I've watched when there just isn't much to say.....no new clues, nothing that hasn't been said before.

Thanks, Kimster. I think the school would have no culpability, though, if the child was with his guardian when he left the school.

It all goes back to... why didn't Miss Porter sound the alarm when she noticed Kyron missing. My belief is because a guardian told Miss Porter that Kyron wouldn't be there the rest of the day. Just my opinion and only grounded in my opinion.

Well, I guess now that we've been able to read the school's handbook and now that we know calls aren't made to students' homes to confirm absences, we know why she didn't raise the alarm----because they NEVER do! I do wish that teacher, since she knew Kyron had been in the school that morning, would have called the step-mom to see if she had taken Kyron with her when she left. Hindsight is always 20-20 and I am sure that poor teacher is beating herself up over this, but a quick "I notice Kyron is not in class and he hasn't been signed out" could have gotten this investigation started so much earlier in the day!

 

[awakewriter]

It's almost like there's a 'Duhhh' *facepalm* right there... a no brainer, if you will, but yet, it didn't raise any flags... I'm right there with you, Twzzlrgirl.

If a child shows up to class (even if it's for 2 minutes to put down a coat and bookbag) then magically disappears for an extended amount of time, I have to say, more than red flags would go off for me. Just.. odd... here sits their "stuff" but where in the world are they, where'd they go!? Even returning from lunch and STILL no child ... Idk.... strange, imo.

The jacket really throws me.

Say the teacher (this is based on rumor) thought Kyron had an appointment. Wouldn't she have questioned why his jacket was still there? Maybe she could reason away a bookbag, but a jacket?

 

[twzzlrgirl]

continuing with your idea - we don't know that the school DIDN'T call SM to find out if Kyron was with her. By school I mean either someone in the office (if the teacher called the office ans asked if Kyron had been signed out) or the teacher herself tried to call her - she was very familar with the school and that class as we have seen all the activities she participated in. Maybe they did call and just got her voicemail - maybe not - we just don't know.

There are so many people who are critical of the school for this amazing "faux pas" that I think if someone had tried to reach the SM, even if they hadn't succeeded in getting through, that someone would have come forward. It would take a huge amount of heat off the school. Just MHO

 

[Pensfan]

Would you still feel that way if you desperately wanted to find your child and only this person knew where he was?

Rewatch the video, please.

 

[Calliope]

Please rewatch the video.
I cannot find anywhere during the press conference where Desiree held Terri’s hand. It was Terri putting her arm around Desiree. Desiree stood as frozen as an icicle holding her stomach as if she was going to vomit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huW1p1RovQY

This video shows when the couples actually walked into the room and Desiree was not holding Terri’s hand at that point either.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Media/parents-missing-kyron-horman-hope/story?id=10891582

She was holding Terri's hand in the PC yesterday.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

continuing with your idea - we don't know that the school DIDN'T call SM to find out if Kyron was with her. By school I mean either someone in the office (if the teacher called the office ans asked if Kyron had been signed out) or the teacher herself tried to call her - she was very familar with the school and that class as we have seen all the activities she participated in. Maybe they did call and just got her voicemail - maybe not - we just don't know.

I'm thinking maybe the teacher did get up and go find out where Kyron was and possibly found out.

 

[twzzlrgirl]

The jacket really throws me.

Say the teacher (this is based on rumor) thought Kyron had an appointment. Wouldn't she have questioned why his jacket was still there? Maybe she could reason away a bookbag, but a jacket?

What I don't get is the science project. At my school, projects are set up within an hour or so of the actual fair. So, someone knew he was there long enough to set up his project...again, no one questioned why he was there and then gone? It makes me crazy. :banghead:

 

[PDXMom]

Your post just made a lightbulb go on above my head. Could a parent of a good friend of his lured him away maybe on the premiss of helping him/her with something? This has happened to kids before being taken/killed by a friend's parent. We know he was a good boy so it would take a lot of convincing to get him to go. Just thinking out loud.

On that idea, I would think one of the few things that could lure my own children to go with someone else is if they said one of our cats were hurt, or if the person actually HAD one of the pets to show the child. That, I fear, would do it. It wouldn't be difficult to learn the name of a family pet if a crime was premeditated. Yet....this case still seems so opportunistic in nature.....what are the odds of the kid whose pet's name you know happens to walk past the only unmonitored back door? Thinking out loud, sorry.

 

[mauirain]

No, no, no! Here:

Tanner said the following, not that he saw Terri driving away:

"Fuhrer said that Tanner told her that he had seen Kyron's mom leaving the school building and Kyron was not with her when she left."

From http://www.examiner.com/x-46795-Miss...-criminal-case

Ack, i feel so responsible and I need another cigarette...

Sorry...Ok so Tanner said he so Kyron's mom leave without Kyron. Tanner said the sub noticed Kyron not with the rest of kids upon return to classroom. Tanner also said Kyron was in school for about an hour???? And when did this hour start and end?

 

[Pensfan]

Wow, I can't believe LE would stay at someone's home because they thought there might be a 50% chance that someone might commit suicide over something they may have done! :angel: Just joking, but that really would be a tremendous amount of funds spent on a "what if."

Respectfully shortened. Remember that there is an 18 month old child in this home. If something "happened" and there wasn't LE presence at this home, the public would crucify the FBI and Sheriff's Office. (Reasoning=One child is already "gone"; don't risk the life of another even if it might only be a 50% chance. Read profile involving filicide.)

 

[Kimster]

In order to keep this fast-paced thread devoted to Kyron, another mod had a great idea of which I was happy to oblige!

There is now a thread in the private forums where we can discuss our own schools and their safety measures. There is also a poll attached: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106700"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[raeann]

I don't think that's exactly accurate. If he'd never come to school, then yes. But once he was in school and had been doing the assigned activities, then vanished, that's quite different. He, for instance, could have been hanging dead in the bathroom like the little boy in Texas. Somebody has to be in charge. She either assumed correctly or incorrectly that the SM was, or she dropped the ball completely. You don't get to just dismiss that a child that was there earlier is now gone.
I'd have a couple of parents accompany us when I'd take a group from my class to foreign language competition in another town. The chaperones weren't in charge of their own child, *I* was. And if something had happened to snowflake on my watch, the district would have been open to a lawsuit, no doubt.

I am just reporting what the school official said...that many times parents took the kids out of school on days with activities and did not check out at the office. The school rep also said there was never any follow up of absences because 'absences were not a problem at this school'. Obviously the school policy and tradition led to Kyron's absence not raising red flags. However, blaming that on the teacher or the parent in just doing things the way they were always done isn't fair. The school made the policy, the teacher and parent were following that policy. The mistake being made here is that too many people are ascribing blame based on the policies of their own kids schools which have nothing to do with how this one operated. No school that I have worked in or had my kids attend functioned that way, but Skyline did for many years apparently. As far as all of us know here, a dozen or more students left with parents that day, with no teacher notice and were marked absent as was the POLICY. As far as we know, only one of them was NOT with the parent as the school assumed.

My opinion is that this policy was an accident not just waiting to happen, but destined to happen at some point. But my opinion does not allow me to blame the teacher or parent for what many here have accurately described as "the perfect storm".


jmoo

 

[Forensic fan]

:cat:
I have asked this before, why has LE waited so long to request video's from stores and pictures that any one may have taken at the science fair??????? Am I the only one asking this question, so far I have not gotten an answer. :banghead:

Hi, I saw someone say that they probably did request the ones from the main businesses earlier, but were now wanting ones from people who might have them around their homes, parking areas, etc. Not sure if this is so, just an opinion.