GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #3

[FruitTingles]

Wow, yeah...my immediate thought was "she still wouldn't have gotten in the car with him, I just know it", but I didn't think of it from HIS perspective...but you are absolutely right, there's not a JW I know (and I know thousands hahahaha) who is ignorant of our feelings on being alone *ESPECIALLY* when both parties are married, not just to avoid temptation, but so that no one can accuse them of having an affair, or make the other spouse have to wonder about that....so you are 110% right, he would have known she wouldn't have gone with him alone anywhere.:twocents:

I'm glad it was brought up about the behavior of not being alone.

Respectfully snipped by me.

Well I apologize, but you did say she broke some sort of rule (?) by giving Holt a ride. I found that an odd thing to say and it sounded accusatory.

Maybe it just read that way to me.

I still don't know what rule you are referring to.

MOO

Respectfully snipped again (sorry).

I can't even begin to imagine how you got that from my post, and I am extremely offended that you just put those words into my mouth, so I'm going to step away from this thread before things become uglier. I hope you'll think before you accuse someone of that kind of thing again.

I recall the previous post BBM here in regards to how JW's have certain feelings/beliefs etc about being alone with anybody especially if both people are married, so as to not create a reason to accuse of an affair etc. I believe this is what Thess is referring to.

 

[Indy Anna]

I don't understand how the multiple gas purchases fit into this timeline?

And, if I'm reading things correctly, why he would have thrown his own phone at the lake?

BBM
Could he have mistaken his phone for Whitney's phone? Maybe that's why he waited until he returned to Gresham to dispose of Whitney's phone. He realized it was still in the SUV?

 

[Ashfox]

Why do you not see them having a memorial where the public could attend? I think there are many people, Jehovah's Witnesses or not, that would like to pay tribute to Whitney and to show their love and concern. It is my feeling that they will want to accommodate everyone and have her memorial in a big enough place (possibly an assembly hall) where one and all will be able to attend. Also, we can't be mind readers and know Clint's motives for anything he has done or said. ~JMOO

True enough! I personally think there may still be a memorial that is JW only but that of course is JMO

 

[FrayedKnot]

i agree...i would guess that it maybe that he is sort of blaming her for allowing him into the car...idk? but i would think that if he pulled a gun on her before they were in the car she would have screamed for help and prolly would have alerted someone if not her husband who had that day off...so, i think maybe he did wait till the car was in motion...

and why the hell did he shoot her 4 times! :furious:

And sadly it seems that it isn't that uncommon to blame the victim for (and we don't know that she actually DID) consenting to give him a ride.

As for the shooting....i have no freaking clue. I hate hate hate guns. I am horrified by how easy and impersonally a life can be snuffed out. And FOUR times? I'm so angry I can barely type coherently.

 

[Ashfox]

Exactly! You said it in fewer words tho.... I need to learn that :blushing:

lol i grew up over explaining side note if this was a new couple to the faith (holts) I can see them helping as well and what a horrible spot to be in where you live that close i am sure you feel obligated in even the tiniest of ways to help some...

 

[gngr~snap]

I don't understand how the multiple gas purchases fit into this timeline?

And, if I'm reading things correctly, why he would have thrown his own phone at the lake?

Ticked off cause people were calling him looking for the woman he was trying to rape and murder?

THIS IS A RUMOR!
I heard HE HAD photos of HER on HIS phone! ~stalker type pics
(that she didn't know he took)

I think he was hoping the water would destroy his phone, but why just toss hers in the bushes???? :dunno:

 

[crazymomof4]

he looks young and derpy, .

This just cracked me up! Thanks, I needed a laugh today. :seeya:

 

[Bravo]

He conveniently leaves out the part of where he wanted a ride to. I dont know why this point matters to me so much :waitasec: I dont have exact times at my finger tips but with the time Whitney left and only a few minutes drive to work I dont think she had time to drive him anywhere without being late. It had to be alarming to have a neighbor pop out and ask for a ride.

 

[justwannahelp]

I completely disagree with the idea that being nice to people frequently provides negative returns. What happened to Whitney Heichel was a profound tragedy, but the death of kindness would be a tragedy on another level.

Obviously, people need to use common sense, but what a miserable life someone must lead when they assume everyone in the world is out to get them. Contrary to the "nice girls go out of their way to be accommodating" idea, I think most people today, especially women, are taught to be afraid of everyone, with reason or not. How many times do you hear people say they've taught their children to be afraid of strangers, instead of teaching their children to read and interpret behavior?

Violent crimes are rare, especially within the context of people doing each other favors. Loneliness, bitterness, and fear are widespread, though- I can't support anything that serves to further those things. Assuming that your neighbor is going to stab you in the back or shoot you in the front is no way to go through life. And frankly, I don't think that Whitney Heichel being less "nice" in this situation would have made much of an impact on the results.

i agree that we have to be nice still. however, i will NEVER get into a vehicle with a male that i don't know well. i'm in my 30s and married, however. so it's not like i men in cars is a problem i run into. this rule wouldn't be reasonable for girls dating in their early 20s. speaking of rules, do JH have a rule of women not driving men? or married women not being alone with a man? trying to understand an earlier post about a "rule"?

anyway, what i'm trying to learn from this is to run even when being held at gunpoint. i know, easier said than done. so i'm trying to tell myself this over and over and over. also, i have taught my children to kick scream run no matter what they threaten. kick scream RUN.

now, Whitney's situation was much more complicated in the beginning. she didn't perceive Holt, her friendly neighbor, as a threat - at least according to his story

Added later: i see explanations of rule now. they were posted while i was typing

 

[Neptune]

Remember, we already have a really good reason for why his gas trips would be intentionally short. Since you are forced to have an attendant pump your gas, it usually takes a long time because they start the process and then go on to other cars. Your gas is long done but you still have to wait until he comes back to remove the nozzle. (They return the card to you instantly after swiping). ONLY if you order a few gallons will they do it right there without leaving your car to wait on other customers. So if you need to get in and out fast of a gas station in Oregon the key is to order a small amount. It would reduce the amount of time he could be seen by employees and other customers.

That's why the gas trips are short. I guarantee it.


-

Those of us who live in Oregon know this scenario well. You pull in, roll down your window, give your card or cash, and amount of gas needed. Rarely do the attendants check to see if the card is yours, and only sometimes do they ask for a zip code. They zip it through the machine, give it back to you as you gas up, and when done, the nozzle clicks off, and the attendant prints the receipt and hands it to you.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, "multiple gas stations" were mentioned in WH missing person poster and in MSM stories. Just because LE doesn't "confirm" does not mean that is not correct information. MSM may not always be 100% accurate in their reporting (unintentionally), but when the victim's husband is quoted directly (often on a microphone attached to a reporter's tape recorder or in front of a camera) and he refers to his own bank records to support his quote, then it is not hearsay. Contrary to some beliefs, reporters try very hard to be accurate and to substantiate their stories -- as much for their journalistic integrity as for avoiding liability down the road if they've misinformed.

 

[gngr~snap]

He conveniently leaves out the part of where he wanted a ride to. I dont know why this point matters to me so much :waitasec: I dont have exact times at my finger tips but with the time Whitney left and only a few minutes drive to work I dont think she had time to drive him anywhere without being late. It had to be alarming to have a neighbor pop out and ask for a ride.

Yeah I am thinking more and more that he saw her getting help parking,the night before, Then realized the friend didn't lock Whitney's car and got in before she went to work...

moo

 

[darmela]

True enough! I personally think there may still be a memorial that is JW only but that of course is JMO

Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see...

 

[crazymomof4]

http://www.katu.com/news/local/Repo...d-from-multiple-gunshot-wounds-175262191.html

Sources: Whitney Heichel was sexually assaulted before being killed

Just when you think it can't get any worse. Of course, it's not a completely surprising revelation. Poor girl.

 

[FrayedKnot]

not to jump in i think there was a previous post that made mention that it would have been alittle unlikely for WH to give Holt a ride because they were both married and it could look bad for both to be alone together because that could lead to gossip and rumors so I think perhaps there was confusion that there was a RULE against two witnesses who are of opposite genders being alone in a car together when both are married. Which as far as I know (17 years ago) is not true although I can see why a JW wouldnt put themselves in a situation that could lead to someone saying something.... did that make sense lol sorry i dont always clarify things properly but i think thats where that came from

Ahhh! Thank you for that. I have been reading all weekend and must have missed that discussion. Shocker! Lol

I still don't think that "if" Whitney agreed to give this murderous tool a ride that she had any culpability. And again, that may not have been what anyone was insinuating, but I get kinda prickly about blaming victims.

 

[Ashfox]

i agree with all the above comments where did he say he needed a ride to? but seriously how creepy is it that its probablly still dark out and you have a person even a person you know asking you for a ride early in the am when they are married and could just ask their spouse also i can see whitney going back into the house telling clint since we know he was up at least some before she left and if he had helped with this perps bike in the past also he doesnt live across the street so wth are you doing lurking around my car... this is what makes me think that he forced her much sooner... i am sure she thought why didnt he just call someone or call us why come over here and we know he didnt go up to the door so its even more suspect to be outside lurking around the parking lot

 

[Ashfox]

Ahhh! Thank you for that. I have been reading all weekend and must have missed that discussion. Shocker! Lol

I still don't think that "if" Whitney agreed to give this murderous tool a ride that she had any culpability. And again, that may not have been what anyone was insinuating, but I get kinda prickly about blaming victims.

understandable because ive seen it happen where people do that i think they just misunderstood when the poster said they didnt think that would be the case and mistook it for a rule

 

[msthinksalot]

...but the death of kindness would be a tragedy on another level...

I must not have communicated well, so I'll try to explain.

What I meant when I said that women (myself included) should stop being so nice is simply the fact that there are so many times where our boundaries are crossed, where people around us, particularly men, make us uncomfortable by something they are doing, or want to do, or say, or they try to convince us to do something that crosses a line, goes against our values, inconveniences us, etc. The reason why I think this is a problem is because so many women have this "you have to be nice" idea taught from a very early age. We are taught that we need to be "nice", that the opposite of nice is a "b*tch", and that, foremost, we must put others' perceptions of us and our behaviors ahead of our own feelings/wants/needs/boundaries.

That worries me, a lot. It worries me as the mother of a young daughter. And I'll tell you, I see a heck of a lot of parents correcting their daughters and telling them to "be nice", or, my favorite, "nobody will like you if you do things like that"... and almost 99% of the time, it is over something totally minor, like telling a friend that you don't want to play a game of their suggestion, etc. I used to hear that daily on the playground after school... and that is what I was talking about. It disempowers our daughters and teaches them that what other people think about them is more important than what they feel, and that when taking an action they should consider what other people's perceptions are of them first, rather than whether or not they are comfortable with what someone is doing/saying to them.

MOO/JMO/IMO, etc.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Respectfully snipped by me.



Respectfully snipped again (sorry).




I recall the previous post BBM here in regards to how JW's have certain feelings/beliefs etc about being alone with anybody especially if both people are married, so as to not create a reason to accuse of an affair etc. I believe this is what Thess is referring to.

Thank you! I remember reading that JW took great care to avoid any appearance of impropriety in those kinds of situations. The first quoted post is the one I remember!

I see what Thess was referring to. I guess the "rules" thing threw me. And I still don't think it makes Whitney responsible for her murder. JMHO

 

[surrogatemom]

Did anyone else hear the details?

Probably already answered, but no, no other details. Sorry! I would have said more had more been said. I was trying to answer the question here. Sorry again. :-/

 

[danzn16]

visiting Whitney's FB page makes this case all that much more personal. She was so beautiful and such a nice person. It is a horrible shame she is no longer around. I will never understand why people murder. My heart breaks for Clint.