GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

[PoirotryInMotion]

I can't decide if she was in the front passenger seat when shot and then placed in the rear seat area afterwards where the majority of the blood was found.

While there is a lot of evidence in the car (apparently) to consider, the fact that there was brain matter on the front windshield makes where she was shot pretty obvious (to me, at least). I wouldn't be surprised if the car window had actually been shot out, in fact, during the murder. I can envision a scenario where she is locking the door from the assailant, and him shooting at her face through the window, for shot #1. It's possible he didn't intend to kill her in the car, but maybe through some quick thinking on her part (locking the door?) he then did.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Are you suggesting he killed her in the vehicle, removed her body from the vehicle, hid her body somewhere while he cleaned the car and gassed it up... then returned to her body where he'd previously hidden her, loaded her body back into the car he'd just cleaned, and went to go dispose of her on Larch Mountain? IOW, that he had to move her body out of the car and clean the car just for appearances so he could get gas, in order to put her body back into the cleaned car to drive to a distant place to dump her?

Having a hard time imagining that. Even thinking like a criminal...

---
ETA: Although not much of what we are learning about his movements and actions is making much sense to me, either. So who knows?

Basically, yes. Though I use the expression "cleaning the car" very, very loosely. The police said it appeared as though someone did a "poor job" of cleaning the car. Seems to me that fits with a hurried killer trying to remove the worst of the evidence that might be seen (esp. through the open window) when he took the car to the gas stations. Don't think he wanted to contaminate another car with evidence, which is why he went ahead and gassed up that car, returned for the body, and went up the mountain.

 

[Boodles]

Joe Friday, I can't see your photos. Is anyone else able to see them?

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Joe Friday, I can't see your photos. Is anyone else able to see them?

I can't see them, but I have pictures turned 'off' on here to speed loading.

 

[Ronso]

I can't see the photos either.

 

[Boodles]

Can't see the photos, and my image setting is turned to "on."

However, IF the seats, when down, cover the rear seat foot space, that would explain how a gas station attendant would not have seen a body. That is, if the body had been placed in the rear seat floor, which would explain all the pooled blood there.

And the cursory "clean up" may have been, as PIM has said, to clean the passenger seat area enough so as not to draw attention to that area (i.e., he wiped away the blood in the front seat).

 

[Ronso]

I doubt an attendant would've been peeping in the windows, honestly. If the windows were tinted and seats down and covered, highly unlikely the attendant would've seen anything to begin with. But I doubt the attendant is going to have their face planted on one of the windows while they're pumping your gas for you.

But I've never gotten gas in Oregon, so I dunno... lol

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Can't see the photos, and my image setting is turned to "on."

However, IF the seats, when down, cover the rear seat foot space, that would explain how a gas station attendant would not have seen a body. That is, if the body had been placed in the rear seat floor, which would explain all the pooled blood there.

And the cursory "clean up" may have been, as PIM has said, to clean the passenger seat area enough so as not to draw attention to that area (i.e., he wiped away the blood in the front seat).

Not familiar with the interior of Explorer SUVs, but she was small enough that it sounds like another possibility to consider.

 

[Joe Friday]

Not sure why attachments are not working. I had to upload the pictures to Photobucket. In the process of trying to re-size them so they don't blow the margins. But you should be able to see them up thread now.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I doubt an attendant would've been peeping in the windows, honestly. If the windows were tinted and seats down and covered, highly unlikely the attendant would've seen anything to begin with. But I doubt the attendant is going to have their face planted on one of the windows while they're pumping your gas for you.

But I've never gotten gas in Oregon, so I dunno... lol

If I remember, I believe it was just the rear windows tinted on this car (I'll look for where I read that). An attendant who said he thought he saw "someone who looked like Whitney in the front passenger seat" would have had to view her through the front windshield or side front passenger windows to make that comment. (You don't say that if you've just seen a shadowed form through tinted windows when rounding the rear of the car.)

(Probably why this account has not been 'verified' by LE.)

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Can't see the photos, and my image setting is turned to "on."

However, IF the seats, when down, cover the rear seat foot space, that would explain how a gas station attendant would not have seen a body. That is, if the body had been placed in the rear seat floor, which would explain all the pooled blood there.

And the cursory "clean up" may have been, as PIM has said, to clean the passenger seat area enough so as not to draw attention to that area (i.e., he wiped away the blood in the front seat).

Believe the cursory clean up was also in the rear seat (if that matters)...I'll go back and check.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I re-read the affidavit again today. So sad the story it is telling.

If I understand it correctly it seems that the forensic evidence in the car is going to tell the story of what happened.


Whitney (whether alive or not) seemed to be in the front passenger seat and the rear seat directly behind it. The front windshield had the brain matter and the seat behind it had the clump of hair. The floor in the backseat area had a large pooling of blood. That looked like its "source had been positioned near the center of the rear seat" thus causing the blood to flow down and pool on the floor. There was a white/silver earring back laying in the pooled blood on the floor.

The floor mat in the rear passenger side had been removed and ended up being found in the dumpster at Walmart.

The left side of the vehicle had the tooth laying on the drivers floor mat. Their were also evergreen needles noted there.

The seat behind the drivers, had blood that was described as "drips" and "spots" . There was also a smudge on that doors window and a white scrape mark on the doors interior down by the reflector.

The very back of the vehicle and the back bumper were described as having a fine white mist which was undisturbed. It sounds like road film or dust and seems to indicate that area wasnt used at all.

So it seems her body was in the front passenger seat and the seat behind it. It also sounds like the body was removed by JH by using the door behind the drivers door.

Does that make sense? Hope my wording isnt confusing.

Missed the driver's side remarks the first time around, Glow. The tooth fragment there (and some glass on the floor) would also be consistent with her killer shooting her first through the front passenger window, possibly because she'd locked the door. Once the window was shot, it could be broken out the rest of the way by her assailant.

**Have they accounted for all the broken glass? (Was it all found at the scene of the murder, in the car, or both?)

The fact that she appeared to have been shot in the front seat, but that there was so much blood pooling in the back floor area, means she was shot in the head in the front seat, possibly through the window, window busted out or door opened, and then shot 3 more times (shell casings found in the front). Then her body was moved to the back seat (either immediately or after gassing up) for the trip up the mountain.

(ETA: I'm wondering if there were any through and through shots lodged in the front seat that would support this scenario, but understandably we don't know all the details of the evidence found in the car.)

 

[Joe Friday]

Can't see the photos, and my image setting is turned to "on."

However, IF the seats, when down, cover the rear seat foot space, that would explain how a gas station attendant would not have seen a body. That is, if the body had been placed in the rear seat floor, which would explain all the pooled blood there.

And the cursory "clean up" may have been, as PIM has said, to clean the passenger seat area enough so as not to draw attention to that area (i.e., he wiped away the blood in the front seat).

Trust me there is no room for a body on the rear floor area when the seats are folded (Lowered) down.

Here are a few more pictures. There isn't even 3-4 inches in between the console and the rear seat when folded down. The rear seat where you sit slides ahead when the seat back is lowered.

 

[Ronso]

The fact that she appeared to have been shot in the front seat, but that there was so much blood pooling in the back floor area, means she was shot in the head in the front seat, possibly through the window, window busted out or door opened, and then shot 3 more times (shell casings found in the front). Then her body was moved to the back seat (either immediately or after gassing up) for the trip up the mountain.

Never thought of this scenario. It makes sense given the evidence we know of.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

http://media.oregonlive.com/gresham_impact/other/holt1.pdf[/url]
<snipped
I took some pictures of the rear seat area of a similar 98 or 99 Ford Explorer at a local junk yard with the seat up and down for everyone to look at. (Sorry if I blew the margins)

A few things to note:

There is not enough room IMO to place a body on the floor in the rear seat area behind the front seats with the seats lowered or folded down. The rear seats hinge forward when folding them down almost up to the front seats. (you can see that in the last picture)

Another thing to note is that the levers to release the locks to lower the seats are on the sides of each seat and you almost have to open each rear door to access them. I was able to crawl across the seat to reach the lever on the opposite side, but if the seat was soaked in blood I might of gotten some on my pants in the knee area. Also if he was holding Whitney at gun point I doubt he could have folded down the seats by himself. She would have been able to make a break for it then. I guess it is possible he forced her to lower the seats while holding a gun on her.

Pictures now working, Joe--thanks!

I agree, Whitney was small, but I don't see someone her size being able to fit on the floor in front of the rear seats once the seats were lowered; they appear to move forward too much.

ETA: though possibly the seats weren't lowered all the way down...

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Never thought of this scenario. It makes sense given the evidence we know of.

Sadly, I think it also might indicate that she wasn't killed down near Roslyn Lake. Or else that her body wasn't left there while they gassed up.

Think about it; if she'd been shot four times, her body pulled out and hidden while they gassed up at that Shell station, then her body picked up from that location, well, that's about an hour and a half round trip. She'd have bled out at the hiding spot down at Roslyn Lake.

Instead, it appeared that she was still bleeding out plenty in the car.

 

[Hopeful One]

Just read the affidavit and I'm reading through the discussion here of where she was possibly shot. It doesn't seem (thanks to the pictures provided by Joe Friday - you rock!) that there was enough space to put her body on the floor in the back with the seats folded down.

From what I read, I thought the large pooling of blood in the back was behind the front passenger seat AND close to the middle of the back seat floor. If that made sense, lol. I'll have to go back and read that again to see if that's what it said or if I just read it wrong but that was the picture I had in my head after reading it.

Anyway, is it possible she was shot in the front passenger seat and her body slumped over, leaving her head hanging off the side of the passenger seat, towards the middle of the truck, thereby pooling the blood on the floor in the back?

 

[Hopeful One]

This is what I referenced in my previous post. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong but the picture I take away from this is that the stain was partially in the middle of the floorboards, not solely directly behind the front passenger seat.

He observed a large wet stained area in the middle of the floorboards partially under the front part of the rear seat and this covered an area of about 36&#8221; by 24&#8221;. He observed that it appeared that a red colored substance, that was consistent with the color of blood, had pooled in this area.

Page 8 of affidavit.

http://media.oregonlive.com/gresham_impact/other/holt1.pdf

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

This is what I referenced in my previous post. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong but the picture I take away from this is that the stain was partially in the middle of the floorboards, not solely directly behind the front passenger seat.

He observed a large wet stained area in the middle of the floorboards partially under the front part of the rear seat and this covered an area of about 36” by 24”. He observed that it appeared that a red colored substance, that was consistent with the color of blood, had pooled in this area.

Page 8 of affidavit.

http://media.oregonlive.com/gresham_impact/other/holt1.pdf

Hopeful One, such a large pool of blood makes me think she did most of her bleeding out in the car.

I'm not as inclined to think that pool came from her head and being slumped over in the front seat after being shot there, as she was only 5'2"--and while she was shot 2x in the head, she was also shot 2x in the chest/torso area--more blood would have pooled out from there, especially after the heart stopped beating. If slumped over, she'd have bled out a LOT in the front seat area, probably between the console and front right passenger seat. (If the seats were not leather, the front seat would have also absorbed a lot of that blood.)

From the amount of blood you've described in this quote, it appears that she was placed in that back seat floor area not too long after being shot 4x.

 

[ImWithTheBand]

I think it's rather an unusual coincidence that the Judds:

found/reported the van,
picked him up near that Shell station
also live in Troutdale

They live (on 10th at Beaverdale) in close proximity to where the cell phone was dropped at the Troutdale apts; also near the Walmart and the gas station.

I said that too, when we first got a copy of the affidavit, but I think someone said they didn't think it was so weird because they were part of the search party all day. I sorta let it go, here. But it's something that has been in my mind for a while. Was it getting dark at almost 7pm? And she would have recognized him, presumably from behind, if they were traveling the same direction, on a side walk, while she was driving?? It all just feels creepy to me on this one. :moo: