GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

[Solariis]

BBM
I was thinking this, too. Wouldn't that be more likely if she was shot from outside the vehicle on the passenger side, while she was sitting in the passenger seat? I'm not an expert in ballistics, but it seems that the impact of the first bullet, if shot from the outside through the closed window would be lessened but the impact of the second bullet shot through the open window (after the glass was shot out) could force her head back so that it dangled between the seats. That would then explain the next two bullets hitting her in the torso because her head was hanging behind the seats. The splatters on the windshield, I suppose, could have been from the first bullet to her head?

Again, I think JH lowered the seats in the back after the blood pooled there to conceal it. I can't imagine why he didn't leave her body at Dodge Park, if that's where they were before 9:00 a.m. and where he killed her. But, if he did make a haphazard effort to clean the front seat and windshield and conceal the blood on the floorboards behind the front seats, I think it's likely he did have her in the rear of the vehicle at the gas station. Since he had to return to that area (Stark St.) to access the road going to Larch Mt. anyway, he probably stopped at the Shell to ensure he had enough fuel for the trip and back.

JH probably concealed the body with the floor mats and linens in the rear space. No matter what scenario you consider, JH's actions do not make sense. But, then, what he did to Whitney was totally irrational. I don't know why he chose to move WH's body from the crime scene, but the sequence of committing the crime at Dodge Park (approx. 7:00 a.m. - 9:00 a.m.), gassing up at Shell and then disposing of the body on Larch Mt. (10:00 a.m. - 10:30 a.m., deducting travel time) would also give JH time for clean up at the murder scene and, later, disposal of evidence.

BBM

Even though I stated the same scenario about her still being in the rear covered up with a mat or linens OR put on the floorboard then let the seats down to conceal the body while he got gas before driving to Larch Mtn., I still have a hard time with one thing:

If he cleaned the "Red & White matter" that was on the windshield so that it wasn't visible to others while he was driving around or stopping at gas stations, then how was it still visible on the windshield when LE found and searched the vehicle for evidence??

 

[peace9274]

Not sure why attachments are not working. I had to upload the pictures to Photobucket. In the process of trying to re-size them so they don't blow the margins. But you should be able to see them up thread now.

The photos of the interior of the SUV are showing on my iPad.

 

[Joe Friday]

Could the stain on the front center of the rear seat be from WH's head hanging between the front seats, into the back seat area? As your photos show, there's not much room between the front and back seats, so I could imagine (tho I really prefer not to) that her head came to rest on the edge of the back seat.

I would imagine the rear seats were in the upright position initially when she left her apartment. There is considerably more space in between the front seats and the rear seats were the rear passengers feet would go when the seats are in the upright position. This space would of course vary depending on how far forward or back the front seats where positioned.

Do I think the head of a women that is only 5'2" (correct me if I'm wrong) would reach the rear seats if she was slumped between the front seats. NO.

JMO

 

[Desdemona]

Well, the second part of this about them that bothers me is something another poster brought to my attention who read the whole pdf (I'm still plowing thru it)--that after the Judds called Holt's anxious, worried wife, they didn't take Holt home for another two hours. Why not? Where did they go with him that was more important at that point?

:what: Whaat? The Judds picked up Holt on their way home after searching all day (they lived nearby), but didn't take him home until two hours later?!? I read the docs and saw nothing of the kind. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Where is this alleged two-hour gap coming from?? TIA

---

ETA: :notgood: No, it does not appear to be true. In the Search Warrant Affidavits, it is stated that The Judds were heading south on 257th just before 6:50pm when they spotted Holt south of Stark, walking south (towards home).

It states that they stopped and offered him a ride. He first walked toward their vehicle, then declined, backed up, and walked away, saying he needed to finish clearing his head.

The Judds drove on, while calling Holt's wife. Holt's wife was "bawling" and said Holt was missing and she had been trying to call him all day without success.

Concerned, they went back, couldn't locate him at first (they think he tried to 'lose' them), but did find him and ask him what was going on. Evan got out of the car and walked with Holt for a bit. This is when Holt gave the "I was robbed this morning" story.

"A short time later," they got him in the car and took him home. He filled them in on details of the "robbery" as they drove.

That sequence would take few minutes IMO; maybe 20-30 minutes at most I'm guessing... Nowhere near two hours! Where do these rumors come from? Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Link to docs:

http://www.koinlocal6.com/media/lib...ts_related_to_the_arrest_of_Jonathan_Holt.pdf

---

*ETA: Thanks, Solariis, for finding Amanda H's interview in the docs, where this ~2-hour time-frame originated.*

 

[Desdemona]

Wow, you're totally right, I didn't catch this before, but sure enough on page 34 out of 44 (pg 18 stated on affidavit) it says:

"Amanda Holt told them (LE) that her friend, Amanda Judd, called and asked how she was. When Amanda Holt said that Jonathan Holt was missing, Amanda Judd responded, 'No he's not, he's right here on 257th and Stark, walking around.' Amanda Holt said this conversation happened close to 1900 hours.

Amanda Holt was told by Amanda Judd that her husband did not want to get into the car with them at first but ended up finally coming home with them. She reported, 'They ended up taking him anyway.' Jonathan Holt came home around 2100 hours, clarifying that it was about two hours after the initial call."

So from the time the Judd's found JH and then after talking to AH and finding out he was "missing", decided to turn and get him, what exactly took two hours to get him back to the apartment complex where AH was anxiously waiting?

:blushing: Thanks...

 

[Desdemona]

Yeah, that's true too, even though all parties said it was "about two hours" after the call to Amanda Holt to tell her they found JH, it could've been that they were just trying to talk to him, calm him down and convince him to go home. I can see that taking quite a while with his history of being "upset" and crying, etc. He was probably scared to death of going home and facing his wife, AH after what he did and thinking about it all day.

"All parties?" (BBM)

Or just Holt's wife in her LE interview??

*poor me!*

Time for a long break methinks...

 

[Indy Anna]

BBM

Even though I stated the same scenario about her still being in the rear covered up with a mat or linens OR put on the floorboard then let the seats down to conceal the body while he got gas before driving to Larch Mtn., I still have a hard time with one thing:

If he cleaned the "Red & White matter" that was on the windshield so that it wasn't visible to others while he was driving around or stopping at gas stations, then how was it still visible on the windshield when LE found and searched the vehicle for evidence??

Small amounts of blood can be detected with luminol. I'm sure LE would be able to swab off some samples from the windshield and send them to a lab to be analyzed. So, this red and white matter may not have been readily visible, but there was enough residue on the windshield for analysis. JH seemingly did not do a thorough job of cleaning the vehicle to begin with. He was in a rush to dispose of evidence.

 

[newsjunkie]

"All parties?" (BBM)

Or just Holt's wife in her LE interview??

*poor me!*

Time for a long break methinks...

In the Judds statement they mention driving and seeing him around 1850 hours. AH says the call came in close to 1900 hours and then they arrived around 2100 hours. So, AH is the only one with the end time, but they all agree on the start time, and the Judds do not dispute her 2 hours in their statement.

I just think in his state of mind and the fact the Judds felt he was trying to lose them, it really all could have taken around 2 hours.

If there was something hinky going on with the Judds, I don't think they would have called his wife and alerted her to their association with him at that time. Furthermore, I don't think they would have come in his home with him when they brought him home. I think they would have just dropped him off.

Plus, there is the fact that they spoke with the police the next day and told the police about finding him and what happened that evening.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

BBM

Even though I stated the same scenario about her still being in the rear covered up with a mat or linens OR put on the floorboard then let the seats down to conceal the body while he got gas before driving to Larch Mtn., I still have a hard time with one thing:

If he cleaned the "Red & White matter" that was on the windshield so that it wasn't visible to others while he was driving around or stopping at gas stations, then how was it still visible on the windshield when LE found and searched the vehicle for evidence??

My guess (if he cleaned the windshield at all) would be that some was still visible the way the some of the blood was...he'd cleaned hurriedly but not very thoroughly from their report.

 

[Indy Anna]

I would imagine the rear seats were in the upright position initially when she left her apartment. There is considerably more space in between the front seats and the rear seats were the rear passengers feet would go when the seats are in the upright position. This space would of course vary depending on how far forward or back the front seats where positioned.

Do I think the head of a women that is only 5'2" (correct me if I'm wrong) would reach the rear seats if she was slumped between the front seats. NO.

JMO

IDK. I'm under 5' but I would think if I were sitting in the front seat of my car and forced backward, my head might touch the edge of the back seat. My understanding is that the stain in the back seat of WH's SUV was just on the front edge while blood pooled on the floor. The seats may have been pushed back, too, especially if the sexual assault occurred inside the vehicle. Just a thought to possibly explain the stain on the seat and blood on the floor.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

In the Judds statement they mention driving and seeing him around 1850 hours. AH says the call came in close to 1900 hours and then they arrived around 2100 hours. So, AH is the only one with the end time, but they all agree on the start time, and the Judds do not dispute her 2 hours in their statement.

Agreed. If Amanda says (and Judds don't dispute) that Holt arrived home 2 hours after her call from EJ, that's all I have to go on, at the moment. That's what made me wonder--because she was so upset. Seems strange, if the Judds knew how upset she was that it took that long, that's all.

If there was something hinky going on with the Judds, I don't think they would have called his wife and alerted her to their association with him at that time. Furthermore, I don't think they would have come in his home with him when they brought him home. I think they would have just dropped him off.

Hmm, I think if there were something hinky going on with the Judds, any distancing would be more suspect. They were all friends ('brothers' and 'sisters' from the Hall)--she already knew their association, in other words. It's possible they'd even been to the apartment before, and knowing how upset Amanda was, it would be more expected to bring him in with them; the loving, brotherly thing to do.

 

[Quester]

If correct, it sounds like the pooling of blood on the floorboards was located below the crack between where the rear seats meet the rear back rests, when in the upright position, and not where one would place one's feet if sitting properly. IOW, LE probably had to remove the rear seats to see the pooling of blood on the floorboards.

Please correct if this is wrong. TIA

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

<snipped>
also live in Troutdale

They live (on 10th at Beaverdale) in close proximity to where the cell phone was dropped at the Troutdale apts; also near the Walmart and the gas station.

Correction; memory failure. The corner of Beaver Creek Ln. and 10th.

 

[peace9274]

Just read the affidavit and I'm reading through the discussion here of where she was possibly shot. It doesn't seem (thanks to the pictures provided by Joe Friday - you rock!) that there was enough space to put her body on the floor in the back with the seats folded down.

From what I read, I thought the large pooling of blood in the back was behind the front passenger seat AND close to the middle of the back seat floor. If that made sense, lol. I'll have to go back and read that again to see if that's what it said or if I just read it wrong but that was the picture I had in my head after reading it.

Anyway, is it possible she was shot in the front passenger seat and her body slumped over, leaving her head hanging off the side of the passenger seat, towards the middle of the truck, thereby pooling the blood on the floor in the back?

BBM

Your description of where Whitney was sitting when she was shot....
and then her position immediately afterwards, is the same scenario
I formed in my mind after I read the affidavit.

 

[La Louve]

I think however that blood got onto the floorboards behind the front seats was the result of Whitney falling or being moved from inside the car. Not pulled out of the passenger door and put in the back, with the risk of being seen by cars driving by. I also wonder how far the back seats would go down if there was a body partially lying on them. We also don't know from the affidavit what position the rear seats were in the night before, when the neighbor says she helped Whitney park the car. So maybe they were already down, with all the table linens laid out.

One thing I can't square is the evidence that seems to suggest Whitney was in the passenger seat when shot, and Holt's confession that he pulled the gun on her five minutes into the abduction. IMO he would have had better control of her if he only had to focus on keeping the gun on her while she drove, rather than him driving AND holding the gun on her. But how/when did they ended up exchanging seats?

 

[nikb]

BBM

Even though I stated the same scenario about her still being in the rear covered up with a mat or linens OR put on the floorboard then let the seats down to conceal the body while he got gas before driving to Larch Mtn., I still have a hard time with one thing:

If he cleaned the "Red & White matter" that was on the windshield so that it wasn't visible to others while he was driving around or stopping at gas stations, then how was it still visible on the windshield when LE found and searched the vehicle for evidence??

I've wondered the same thing. Also not that I want to look for it any closer but I'm surprised you can't see anything in the pictures of the SUV. Assuming that was her SUV and pics were taken that day.

ETA: related to my last point I do believe it was her SUV and the pics were taken that day. Didn't mean to insinuate anything else, but just realized it could've sounded like I was.

 

[Xavier]

Trust me there is no room for a body on the rear floor area when the seats are folded (Lowered) down.

Here are a few more pictures. There isn't even 3-4 inches in between the console and the rear seat when folded down. The rear seat where you sit slides ahead when the seat back is lowered.

Good point Joe Friday....What's sad is I read somewhere Whitney's Mom was planning a wedding and Whitney had long table lines in the SUV being used for the wedding and I guess was getting them dry cleaned or something like that.....if true, wow what a tragedy before a grand wedding event...that is real tragedy folks...


But if maybe Holt covered Whitney with the long linens to conceal her at the gas stations?...LE did mention something about the linens, maybe blood stained, maybe with gunshot holes...I don't know for sure ....Any thoughts?

I just can't believe Holt would be the mega idiot he is and drive around getting gas with Whitney in the SUV.....but then again, the 17 year old in Colorado was driving around with his dismembered Mom in glad bags in the back seat of his car, so some folks are stupid beyond reason...Since Holt's shown alot of stupidity and recklessness, manic, so it's possible Whitney was in the SUV at Shell..

 

[Xavier]

:waitasec: We really can't know the actual sequence of events until we know whether Whitney was visible in the car at the Shell station. What I'm finding so confusing is that JH would've had to return to Stark St. from Dodge Park to get to Larch Mt. The trip to from the Shell station to Dodge Park, to Larch Mt. and, finally, to the Wood Village Wal-mart takes about 2 hours 20 minutes. JH would've had to fly along those roads to arrive at Wal-mart by 11:17 -- approximately 2 hours after fueling up the car. And that doesn't take into consideration additional time for all that happened at Dodge Park and Larch Mt. And, I doubt that someone who had just committed a horrendous crime would risk getting pulled over by LE for speeding.

Why does LE seem so certain that WH was killed at Dodge Park? Is it because that's where her bloody apron and sweater were found? I wonder if there was also blood on the ground or spent casings at Dodge Park.
I'm thinking that, if Whitney was already deceased when her SUV was seen at the Shell station, maybe she was killed and left on Larch Mt. and JH then drove to Dodge Park after putting more fuel in the vehicle to toss out some of the evidence. Maybe he was in such a hurry that he forgot to toss all of the evidence and so strewed the remainder on his way to Wal-mart.

If Whitney was killed in Dodge Park before the SUV was fueled up at Shell, I find it hard to believe that JH would've propped her body in the passenger seat where she could be easily seen through the broken window on the passenger side and through the open window on the driver's side (when JH communicated with the station attendant). She would've had some very noticeable wounds. Her body would also get jostled around a lot, especially if JH was speeding en route. If WH was deceased at that point, wouldn't JH attempt to conceal her body in the back? Or, even more likely, wouldn't he have left her body at Dodge Park? I'm inclined to think WH was already deceased by 9:00 a.m. and wasn't in the vehicle at Shell.

I hope I'm clear enough. I'm extremely tired. Here is the map showing the route from Shell to Dodge Park to Larch Mt. to Wal-mart:

http://goo.gl/maps/T24Rp

ETA: After re-reading your post, Desdemona, I realized that JH couldn't have gone to Larch Mt. prior to making a fuel stop because the license plate was found on Larch Mt., and it was on the vehicle at the Shell station. Nothing seems to add up if JH did this alone. Or, he made a second trip to Larch Mt. after the fuel stop maybe?

One thought, doesnt a 9 mm pistol like Holt's carry a 6 bullet magazine?
If so, maybe Holt fired off the other 2 bullets and those casings might've been found @ Dodge Park along w/ WH's sweater(bloody maybe) and personal belongings...from this possibility, LE presumed WH was shot there..maybe he fired those 2 extra bullets in the air as part of his "rage". getting it out of his system what he just did, completed his grand plan to kill WH..just a guess.

 

[nikb]

I think however that blood got onto the floorboards behind the front seats was the result of Whitney falling or being moved from inside the car. Not pulled out of the passenger door and put in the back, with the risk of being seen by cars driving by. I also wonder how far the back seats would go down if there was a body partially lying on them. We also don't know from the affidavit what position the rear seats were in the night before, when the neighbor says she helped Whitney park the car. So maybe they were already down, with all the table linens laid out.

One thing I can't square is the evidence that seems to suggest Whitney was in the passenger seat when shot, and Holt's confession that he pulled the gun on her five minutes into the abduction. IMO he would have had better control of her if he only had to focus on keeping the gun on her while she drove, rather than him driving AND holding the gun on her. But how/when did they ended up exchanging seats?

Good points. I wonder if she was trying to escape by climbing to the back? Could explain how she got to the spot where blood was mostly found?

 

[Xavier]

While there is a lot of evidence in the car (apparently) to consider, the fact that there was brain matter on the front windshield makes where she was shot pretty obvious (to me, at least). I wouldn't be surprised if the car window had actually been shot out, in fact, during the murder. I can envision a scenario where she is locking the door from the assailant, and him shooting at her face through the window, for shot #1. It's possible he didn't intend to kill her in the car, but maybe through some quick thinking on her part (locking the door?) he then did.

Good points..but ALL 4 fired bullet casings were found inside the front seat area according to LE. And firing a gun inside the SUV instead of outside the SUV the sounds would've been muffled..so it'd be harder to hear the gunfire from passersby...If Holt shot WH outside the SUV point blank into the window, the casing would've been left on the street pavement...And if I'm not mistaken LE said she was shot 4 times, autopsy reports said they discovered 4 bullet wounds to WH. And all 4 casings were on the driver side floor.